The Eternal Argument

[Leanne]

Sarky? Moi? I'm sure I don't know what you mean

[billy]

im with you jagger i just write because thats what i do, and i enjoy doing as well. plus i know i can put a few words together that sound cool

Yeah. I don't know enough to call them free-verse or whatever the other one she said. Or possibly whatever other classifications may exist.

imagine you love ice cream, imagine your in an ice cream shop with a 100 flavours you've never tasted before and 1 flavour you have tasted. which one one you chose? most would try a new flavour. after a while you've tasted them all and decide vanilla with choco chip is the best. do you stop eating all other flavours? no, and that's how it should be with poetry. work with the flavour you enjoy but keep working with the other flavours too. imagine how many new flavours you can create by mixing some of the 100 hundred flavours there are. imagine all the different topping you can try. the problem leanne is writing about is the choosing of one ice cream with no toppings and never enjoying any of the others. it's one of the main reasons why different styles of poetry has become so secular. people nearly always start out writing shitty rhyme poetry, don't stick with it till they're proficient at it and them move on to none rhyming poetry because they think it easier or somehow it makes them a better poet. one thing i'll guarantee is this; if you write shitty rhymed poetry, you'll probably write shitty free or blank verse. all the styles of poetry teach you how to write poetry, knowing how to do one style well gives you a grounding for learning how to do another style well.

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definitely, for instance you're one those bastard poets who always write narrative stuff ain't you? that's not poetry, that's fuckin prose. just kidding wiv yer jack (i love your stuff)

Is there really fighting between factions? Do militant free versers throw petrol bombs through the windows of rhyming poetry circles, reducing them to a mist of viscera and Frost, while rhymers sneak up on free versers and shank them with fountain pens? Just kidding, I know what you mean. Really I see it as an extension of how in childhood you try allying yourself to one movement, band or whatever to give yourself an identity. Like when I decided that I'd only listen to Joy Division and X-Ray Spex while reading "hardcore" 90s novels Some people never grow up. Thank you for the read, Leanne, like all your "for fun" poems it was sarkily funny

[heslopian]

i love your stuff

I know, honey bear And yeah, I write narrative stuff because I'm too fucking lazy to write short stories

[doolasmind#11]

most of the time shitty things are what the masses like or am i wrong? i think every poem should at least be given a chance if you turn up your nose to a specific type or genre then there's no way that you will be able to experience a different perspective from your own. not everyone is going to like your material so fruck it, as long as you are happy with what you write and are confident in showing it off then who is anyone else to say if its shite or a masterpiece. this is my world yall just type in it (this last line is said in all sarcasm that is impossible to convey through a computer but hopefully you get my drift)

[billy]

shitty things are often all the masses get to read, if a lot of people say you're writing shite and you're okay with that, fine but it isn't fine if you want to write better than shite?

[doolasmind#11]

one way or another a large portion of people are going to say you're shite whether you are published, famous, outcast or novice. i completely agree with what you said on the questions for beginners thread about having thick skin, being able to accept criticism, apply feedback, not have a big ego, all that jazz. but my whole thing is if you want to reach the most people(not saying my poetry will ever reach anybody) then you have to be readable to the most people. if you want to impress the "critics", cultured and judges of good shite so to speak then its going to be hard for the common man to read you. i think you have to live somewhere in the middle

[Leanne]

Philip Larkin once said that he wanted his poetry to be read in equal measure by university professors and the blokes down at his local pub. He also said if he had to choose one over the other, he'd go with the blokes at the pub -- fortunately for him, he was equally loved (and hated) by both sets.

Unfortunately many writers assume that to reach the "masses" they have to dumb things down. I reject that utterly. Most people aren't ignorant by choice -- if they're given a way in, and a hand up, they'll tackle the more challenging stuff as long as it's something they want to read about.

[doolasmind#11]

Most people aren't ignorant by choice -- if they're given a way in, and a hand up, they'll tackle the more challenging stuff as long as it's something they want to read about.

As i read this sentence i can't help but think it should be "most people are ignorant by choice but if they're given..."

it doesn't take a rocket scientist to read poetry yet most people just dismiss it offhand because they have a preconceived notion about it. after all if the "mass" is dictating your life then you had better fall in line with how they think, and quirky one-liners are in and deep meaningful artworks are out. you have to play to the audience like shakespeare said all the world's a stage.

[billy]

if all we read is poetry inside greeting cards then that will be the standard by which we measure great poetry. often poetry in poetry forums is proof of this fact. while many read a bit of poetry in school, it's soon forgotten because it didn't seem important at the time. as for impressing the critics, i'm not sure i do or want to. i just want to be able to write really, really good poetry, i can accept i have as much chance of that as i have or running a fast 100 meters, but i can still try. i can write a bit better given time and a bit better is an improvement. good poetry is the only sign of good poetry i know of; being published, famous, outcast, or novice has no bearing the matter. most are lucky if they've read two or three books of good poetry. I wish I'd have had access when i was 7 or 8 to what i can access now.

[doolasmind#11]

i don't see anything wrong with poetry inside of greeting cards... for the most part i find it very clever and amusing... that doesn't mean i don't enjoy cummings, shakespeare, or poe. it is just something different. every form of art has a time and a place.

[Leanne]

Most people aren't ignorant by choice -- if they're given a way in, and a hand up, they'll tackle the more challenging stuff as long as it's something they want to read about.

As i read this sentence i can't help but think it should be "most people are ignorant by choice but if they're given..."

it doesn't take a rocket scientist to read poetry yet most people just dismiss it offhand because they have a preconceived notion about it. after all if the "mass" is dictating your life then you had better fall in line with how they think, and quirky one-liners are in and deep meaningful artworks are out. you have to play to the audience like shakespeare said all the world's a stage.

When you're young, it's easy to assume that people don't understand you, that they're maybe not quite as clever as you are... as you get older, you come to realise that although some people are just born thick, most are actively discouraged from thinking independently by one system or another. Given a reason to look at things in a deeper fashion, most people will try to meet the challenge.

The problem is, mediocrity abounds and they're given no choice but to embrace it. If the only colour available is beige, you'll wear beige.

[billy]

shakespeares "all the worlds a stage" is oft taken out of context. the poem is about the seven stages of life and he uses the stage and players in a representational way to explain the fact. it has very little to do with the world being a stage, the concept of the world being a stage actually pre dates old willy boy.

i don't see anything wrong with poetry inside of greeting cards... for the most part i find it very clever and amusing...

do you think it good poetry?

because if not then as a bar for poetry it's already failed, if yes, then the rot has already set in and only a lobotomy will rectify the situation no offence meant. i love getting those cards through the various times they're given, but i read them as affectionate thoughts, i don't see them as serious poetry, or even as poetry. their clever little plays on words etc. if i were to read some poetry, they would not be part of any choice i make. while they're okay for facebook and such on little snippets of paper, they are ruinous to good poetry.

[Todd]

As i read this sentence i can't help but think it should be "most people are ignorant by choice but if they're given..."

it doesn't take a rocket scientist to read poetry yet most people just dismiss it offhand because they have a preconceived notion about it. after all if the "mass" is dictating your life then you had better fall in line with how they think, and quirky one-liners are in and deep meaningful artworks are out. you have to play to the audience like shakespeare said all the world's a stage.

I think they dismiss it because they don't like it. They didn't like it in school. They don't like it now. Most people choose not to even read these days. We are not in a literate age. Poetry suffers for that. You are never going to reach the masses now. Poetry hasn't had that type of audience for hundreds of years-if it ever did. Too many easier entertainments exist today for it ever to be a draw now. So, I'm not too concerned about reaching some mythical common man who thinks that a Hallmark card has a deep message of love for his spouse. He will never be my audience.

Watering it down for him, will just make what you create suck. It isn't how I'd choose to spend my time. Poetry is less about immediate audience, and more about the act of creating something good that didn't exist before.

The way is broad that leads to stupidity and many are those who find it.
The way is narrow that leads to anything worthwhile and well survivor is in it's 54th season so we'll pass.

[Yelleryella123]

As i read this sentence i can't help but think it should be "most people are ignorant by choice but if they're given..."

......

Ignorance is not a choice, indifference is

..... Poetry is less about immediate audience, and more about the act of creating something good that didn't exist before.

Todd - love this!

poetry should be an honest creation for yourself, first.

[Card]

Ignorance is not a choice, indifference is.

Yeah, I like that.


And yeah, it's not so much that people don't want to learn, it's more that they don't. Laziness is often times a better word for it, in my opinion. They could learn it, but that would require them to pay attention. And then, they'd have to read poetry and give their opinion!

'Cause I won't lie, that's a reason I don't want to learn things, sometimes. So I won't feel like I have to use that skill.

Also because renaissance people often get painted by the media as being idiots in practical settings. Same with really intelligent people; Hollywood likes to tell us all we need are "street-smarts."

[Leanne]

I'm just shifting this into the poetry discussion thread, because we have many new people here now and this discussion was a valuable one.