We.

[QDeathstar]

Edit 2:

The line between the legs which yearns, burns, and begs,
consumes my soul: an unshakeable power.

The want beyond one wife yields pain, strain, and strife;
twists my thoughts: shivering, hurried, and hot.

The shallow within myself which extolls, cajoles, and contains;
justifies my sins - living life by margin.

The pain it causes (not me I'm free) shames, blames, and blinds;
sullies my love - dismisses arguments with apathy.

Edit:
The line between the legs which yearns, burns, and begs,
searches for a soul to devour with unshakeable power.

The want beyond one wife yields pain, strain, and strife,
twists my thoughts; shivering, hurried, and hot.

The shallow within ourselves which extolls cajoles and contains,
ignores empathy; trading faith for apathy resigned.

Original:
The line between the legs which yearns burns and begs,
searching for a soul to devour with unshakeable power.

The want beyond mere wife yields pain strain and strife,
twisting my thought shivering hurried and hot.

The shallow within our selves which extolls cajoles and contains,
ending empathy discovered in apathy.

[Jinxy]

searching for a soul to devour with unshakeable power.

Devour unshakeably? Yeah, that sounds like a well thought out sentence......

Also, not how to use a comma.

Just in general learn how to punctuate becuase this isnt appealing what im writing right now is it no it doesnt really work and isnt poetic at all.

Yearns, burns and begs

Pain, strain, and strife

shivers, hurried, and hot


The shallow within our selves which extolls cajoles and contains,
ending empathy discovered in apathy.

really vague and uncompelling. "The shallow within ourselves"? Yawn.

The internal rhyme seems very forced and unnatural.

[QDeathstar]

searching for a soul to devour with unshakeable power.

Devour unshakeably? Yeah, that sounds like a well thought out sentence......

Also, not how to use a comma.

Just in general learn how to punctuate becuase this isnt appealing what im writing right now is it no it doesnt really work and isnt poetic at all.

Yearns, burns and begs

Pain, strain, and strife

shivers, hurried, and hot


The shallow within our selves which extolls cajoles and contains,
ending empathy discovered in apathy.

really vague and uncompelling. "The shallow within ourselves"? Yawn.

The internal rhyme seems very forced and unnatural.

Thank you. I agree about the comas. Thanks for pointing that out. My grammar, or spelling isn't great. My reasoning for leaving the commas out was that i wanted it to be read at an exasperated rate, fast, without pause.


However, it's unshakeable power, not devour unshakeable. Perhaps poor grammar made that unclear?

[Isis]

Hey - nice to meet another person new on the forum.

I have a harder and hard time wrapping my head around the poem as it goes on. I feel like I have a good idea of what's being described at the beginning, because the poem is fairly concrete in the first couplet (which seems to be all about a woman's desire), a little more general in the second couplet though still interpretable, and a lot more abstract and open in the final couplet.

I end up having a few questions about the poem. I'm interpreting "the want" in the second couplet as the want of the other person in the poem, not the speaker; the woman wants something beyond "mere wife", but the speaker doesn't want to give it to her - whatever that is - and that makes him uncomfortable. I'm with you so far if that's what was intended by this word choice, by framing "the want" as something disconnected from the people in the poem. But then, because it's disconnected, I wonder if "the want" is meant to refer to both parties.

Most of my questions are about the last couplet though: what is "the shallow within ourselves"? And why should we get invested in the relationship described in the poem, care that it ends in empathy rather than apathy? Does anything change in the heart of the speaker?


I think the sound in this poem works best when it's half/slant rhyme, or when it's alliteration. The "true" rhymes in the poem feel very stressed to me, and I think that in a few places it feels like there might be better word choices. I love the resonance in "burns and begs", but I find the devour/power, wife/strife, pain/strain rhymes a little simple - especially in a poem this condensed, where sound and construction are both important.

[JMSelden]

The way I read this is very disturbing. Will most likely edit on further comment after a reread.

Hi, JM. We are here to help each other improve our writing. Please think about whether or not your comment helps the poet in any way. it may be best to do your rereading before posting. Thanks, and welcome. ella/mod.

[QDeathstar]

Hey - nice to meet another person new on the forum.

I have a harder and hard time wrapping my head around the poem as it goes on. I feel like I have a good idea of what's being described at the beginning, because the poem is fairly concrete in the first couplet (which seems to be all about a woman's desire), a little more general in the second couplet though still interpretable, and a lot more abstract and open in the final couplet.

I end up having a few questions about the poem. I'm interpreting "the want" in the second couplet as the want of the other person in the poem, not the speaker; the woman wants something beyond "mere wife", but the speaker doesn't want to give it to her - whatever that is - and that makes him uncomfortable. I'm with you so far if that's what was intended by this word choice, by framing "the want" as something disconnected from the people in the poem. But then, because it's disconnected, I wonder if "the want" is meant to refer to both parties.

Most of my questions are about the last couplet though: what is "the shallow within ourselves"? And why should we get invested in the relationship described in the poem, care that it ends in empathy rather than apathy? Does anything change in the heart of the speaker?


I think the sound in this poem works best when it's half/slant rhyme, or when it's alliteration. The "true" rhymes in the poem feel very stressed to me, and I think that in a few places it feels like there might be better word choices. I love the resonance in "burns and begs", but I find the devour/power, wife/strife, pain/strain rhymes a little simple - especially in a poem this condensed, where sound and construction are both important.

Thank you very much for your response. I've been looking for a place like this for a while.


The poem is written from a mans perspective. I did want to move from concrete to the abstract in this poem. The poem ends with apathy, not empathy.





I am not sure if i'm supposed to explain the poem, because sometimes it comes off as being defensive... but...


The first stanza describes a woman's organ, and how much power and control it has over the souls of men. It yearns burns and begs. It is temptation.

The second stanza refers to the speakers desire for more than just a wife, he wants multiple partners. He can make all sorts of justifications in his own mind for his actions, but shivering hurried and hot refers to the pure physicality of his actions.

The shallow with in ourselves is our debase thought. Egotism and animalism. It tells us our actions are ok or even required. It allows us to contain our shame. It is this shallow which allows men to partake in the temptation beyond "mere wife" and give up on empathy with the admittance that it isn't necessary or important to consider the feelings of anyone around him.


The simple rhymes are a metaphor for the speaker's (a mans) animalism (simplistic) coming through, but that might be too abstract to add value.

[Isis]

I don't know how other people feel about the writer explaining the poem (and I'll defer if there's a community standard), but I usually take it as the opening of a discussion - now that I understand where you're coming from and what you're trying to achieve with the poem, we can figure out ways to make the poem better do those things and convey those ideas.

The first stanza describes a woman's organ, and how much power and control it has over the souls of men. It yearns burns and begs. It is temptation.

The second stanza refers to the speakers desire for more than just a wife, he wants multiple partners. He can make all sorts of justifications in his own mind for his actions, but shivering hurried and hot refers to the pure physicality of his actions.

Ok, I think I'm on the same page as you in the first couplet -- I think that communicates really well. But in the second couplet, how important to you is your way/the right way of reading the poem? Because "the want" in the second couplet is detached from a particular person in the poem, I ended up interpreting it as the woman's want more than the speaker's want. I wonder if there's a way to show that it's the man who wants more? Or a way to dip into both perspectives for awhile - the woman who wants to be more than 'just' a wife, and the man who wants more than one woman in his life? I think just changing "The want" to "His want" or even making "want" a verb rather than a noun might clear things up - but there could be other ways of achieving the same effect.

The shallow with in ourselves is our debase thought. Egotism and animalism. It tells us our actions are ok or even required. It allows us to contain our shame. It is this shallow which allows men to partake in the temptation beyond "mere wife" and give up on empathy with the admittance that it isn't necessary or important to consider the feelings of anyone around him.

Hm... I wonder if it would be possible to continue "the shallow" metaphor into something more concrete as a way of getting this particular across? I took "the shallow within ourselves" to be our first reactions, our quick judgements, our prejudices. Like a shallow self within the bigger self. I can see how it could refer to egotism, animalism and 'base' thought, especially in the context of this poem, but as you can tell that connection wasn't strong enough for me to 'get it' the first few times I read the poem, and I don't think I would have fully gotten there without your explanation. I wonder if other readers got similarly sidetracked here? I suggested continuing the metaphor because "the shallow" on its own could be imagined or construed in a number of different ways, and if you continue it to contain a more concrete image or metaphor for animal urges or egotism we'll be able to connect with your intention better, and I think also connect previous parts of the poem with the end of the poem. I'm not sure what the "right" metaphor is for that - it's your poem, and I'm sure you have ideas. My only suggestion would be to aim for something concrete and imaginable, more image than internal. Especially because we get character and emotion description at the end of the line in "extolls cajoles and contains" - I want a better picture of who/what is doing those things.

Is the last line of the poem meant to be read with "ending empathy" as one phrase and "discovered in apathy" as another? I saw it as "empathy discovered in apathy", thus my confusion! Maybe the way the line is punctuated could clear things up.

Anyway, just a little more about my perspective, and a few places where you could tweak the poem. Keep in mind that this is one reader's reaction - other readers might have other reactions. But if you find that others are also getting a tad lost in the poem or interpret it differently than you intended, that could be a signal to edit parts of the poem to clarify it.

[tectak]

The line between the legs which yearns burns and begs,
searching for a soul to devour with unshakeable power. searches not searching or you have no sentence

The want beyond mere wife yields pain strain and strife, a want beyond wife is awkward. You relate an abstract term (want) with a solid and definitive noun (wife) and this cannot work . The want beyond a wife's desire yields pain and strife.
twisting my thought shivering hurried and hot. twisting my thoughts; shivering, hurried and hot

The shallow within our selves which extolls cajoles and contains, This, I am afraid is gobbledygook. It sounds fine but means nothing. You are using words in ways that they are not meant to be used. To begin, ourselves is one word.What is this adjective, shallow, when used as a noun? What can you mean? How does a shallow extoll? Do you know what extoll means? Yes, of course you do...but so do your readers and this come as across as an incompetance. Worse, you then say that the shallow cajoles. Utterly nonsensical and you cannot explain the use of the word without invoking similarly nonsensical argument. So please do not try. Instead, think what you mean and use words that give confidence and precision to both you, but more importantly, to your readers
ending empathy discovered in apathy. Huh?

Hello and welcome,
This is not a new poem but you challenge yourself to make it so and that is praiseworthy. The most problematical area would normally be in the execution of a new view or take on the theme, but here it is not. The overwhelming problem is the lack of grammatical clarity and debateable word use. These you must prioritise.
Best,
tectak

[QDeathstar]

Thank you tectak, I think I can use some of your suggestions to improve the poem.

Two people have brought this up that they think the third line is about the wife's want. But it's not, it's about how having a wife is not enough to satisfy the speaker. It is obviously unclear.

[abu nuwas]

I would suggest that you first of all make up your mind, as to whether your aim is either 1) to communicate lucidly what is in your mind, to the reader, so that s/he understands as nearly as it is ever possible, the 'meaning'; or 2) to put out something, with a few pointers, from which the reader will take away what s/he will, with little reference to whatever your point was.

I do not agree with tectak about 'the shallow' , 'cajoling' 'extolling' etc. It is quite common to convert adjectives into nouns, e.g.-'the good, the bad and the indifferent'. It is precisely the shallow part of me, at any rate, which does a lot of cajoling: it used to cajole me into having just one cigarette; another beer on the way home, and much else. It likes extolling, too: it tells me that this or that is brilliant, the very thing -- and requires some other bit of brain to pour cold water over it.

Welcome, and everything-- but your piece does need a revamp.

[tectak]

I would suggest that you first of all make up your mind, as to whether your aim is either 1) to communicate lucidly what is in your mind, to the reader, so that s/he understands as nearly as it is ever possible, the 'meaning'; or 2) to put out something, with a few pointers, from which the reader will take away what s/he will, with little reference to whatever your point was.

I do not agree with tectak about 'the shallow' , 'cajoling' 'extolling' etc. It is quite common to convert adjectives into nouns, e.g.-'the good, the bad and the indifferent'. It is precisely the shallow part of me, at any rate, which does a lot of cajoling: it used to cajole me into having just one cigarette; another beer on the way home, and much else. It likes extolling, too: it tells me that this or that is brilliant, the very thing -- and requires some other bit of brain to pour cold water over it.

Welcome, and everything-- but your piece doers need a revamp.

Hi abu,
I don't agree with me either but it was the definitive that rankled. The good, the bad and the indifferent is categorisation...groups if you like. In this piece "the shallow" is self-referencing and as such it is implicitly a singularity...so I question its use as a noun. That is to say, you can no more ask what is a shallow than you can ask what is a good or a bad or an indifferent. Clarity before confusion everytime for me else we all translate ourselves in to the mad....see what I mean?
Best,
tectak

[QDeathstar]

I would suggest that you first of all make up your mind, as to whether your aim is either 1) to communicate lucidly what is in your mind, to the reader, so that s/he understands as nearly as it is ever possible, the 'meaning'; or 2) to put out something, with a few pointers, from which the reader will take away what s/he will, with little reference to whatever your point was.

I do not agree with tectak about 'the shallow' , 'cajoling' 'extolling' etc. It is quite common to convert adjectives into nouns, e.g.-'the good, the bad and the indifferent'. It is precisely the shallow part of me, at any rate, which does a lot of cajoling: it used to cajole me into having just one cigarette; another beer on the way home, and much else. It likes extolling, too: it tells me that this or that is brilliant, the very thing -- and requires some other bit of brain to pour cold water over it.

Welcome, and everything-- but your piece doers need a revamp.

Hi abu,
I don't agree with me either but it was the definitive that rankled. The good, the bad and the indifferent is categorisation...groups if you like. In this piece "the shallow" is self-referencing and as such it is implicitly a singularity...so I question its use as a noun. That is to say, you can no more ask what is a shallow than you can ask what is a good or a bad or an indifferent. Clarity before confusion everytime for me else we all translate ourselves in to the mad....see what I mean?
Best,
tectak

Why can't the shadow be a group of debase self serving thoughts?

[abu nuwas]

Hi, tac,
Leaving aside the burning elephant in the room of whether it might be a noun, with the sense of 'shoal' or 'sandbank', I think I understand you. It may simply be my antiquated form of speech: I might say, for example, ''I think that man is a prick of the first water -- but the charitable in me is inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.'' I confess, though, that I have a personal stake in this. Some years ago, I met a very old friend whom I had not seen for ages, and the plan was, to go to the Tate Modern Gallery, which I had not visited. We chatted away, the afternoon passed, we wandered along the Thames on a rather brisk, and brittle winter's evening. It had just closed as we arrived. ''Oh, well'' said I ''I can at least touch it, and then I shall be able to say I have been.'' My cultured companion was shocked, in her North of the Water-y way: ''I never knew you were so shallow'', she commented reproachfully. Too late to recover. Take it on the supercilious chin -but never forgotten!

I now think that he may claim a bit of poetic licence for that -- but for leaving out a main verb, again, not so much...

E

---

QDS,

Why can't the shadow be a group of debase self serving thoughts?
[/quote]

Do you mean 'shallow' or 'shadow'? In your mind, it may be whatever it wants; and it doesn't really matter whether other people pick that up or not-- though to me, writing poetry where no communication takes place, is the same as tapping out the most important message in Morse code, when the guy on the other end is an ace at semaphore, but knows no Morse. I think something must be communicated, even though the plainest, simplest, thing, will be coloured by the experiences of reader and writer.

Btw, you must either have 'debased' or 'base'. For what it's worth, I don't think people should be ashamed of natural physical attraction. I think they should be shot at dawn if they allow that to hurt someone else through cold, callous, behaviour.

[billy]

the 1st lines of each couplet set me up i want to carry on reading but the 2nd lines make me want to stop reading, in this instance, i'm hungry for something more concrete,

The line between the legs which yearns burns and begs, the first line feels quite powerful, it sets in a hook for me to keep on reading.
searching for a soul to devour with unshakeable power. sadly the second line doesn't pay the dividends promised by the first line. this feels very weak and uses too many intangibles in a statement that shows us very little.

The want beyond mere wife yields pain strain and strife, keep an eye on your punctuation
twisting my thought shivering hurried and hot. same here, there seems to be a lack of cohesion due to zero punctuation (apart form the period)

The shallow within our selves which extolls cajoles and contains, again i like this line, it offers the reader something spectacular [extols]
ending empathy discovered in apathy. and doesn't follow through with the promise.

---

how they feel can be discussed in the discussion forum if anyone wants to know. but yes, once the writer has said what it's about how what they say affecting you can be discussed wit the poet and most definitely used as a conduit for dialogue in the hope of help the critic give better feedback which can include suggestions.

what you have written below is exactly what we allow.

now that I understand where you're coming from and what you're trying to achieve with the poem, we can figure out ways to make the poem better do those things and convey those ideas.

[QDeathstar]

Edit 1

The line between the legs which yearns, burns, and begs,
searches for a soul to devour with unshakeable power.

The want beyond one wife yields pain, strain, and strife,
twists my thoughts; shivering, hurried, and hot.

The shallow within ourselves which extolls, cajoles, and contains,
ignores empathy; trading faith for apathy resigned.


An alternate last line:

Ignores empathy; replaces faith with apathy resigned.

[Leanne]

This is excellent workshopping -- if you'd like it moved out of here and into either Mild or Serious, please let me know.

[abu nuwas]

Edit 1

The line between the legs which yearns, burns, and begs,
searches for a soul to devour with unshakeable power.

The want beyond one wife yields pain, strain, and strife,
twists my thoughts; shivering, hurried, and hot.

The shallow within ourselves which extolls, cajoles, and contains,
Ignores empathy; trading faith for apathy resigned.


An alternate last line:

Ignores empathy; replaces faith with apathy resigned.

I find your edit an improvement, but it has occurred to me, that this really relies on two lines: the first 'legs line' line, and the 'shallow' line. It would not surprise me if the first line was the one which first popped into your head -- but, in truth, does it belong as the first line? As Billy said, there is a sense of anti-climax. I think the 'shallow' line is OK where it is, but I would like to see the first line slip down the batting order, or even come in as the final punch-line. Just thoughts, though.

[billy]

the small edit is a big improvement, my problem as the reader is this, i need more powerful answers or a few more couplets. the couplets have a better clarity now.

[tectak]

Edit 1

The line between the legs which yearns, burns, and begs,
searches for a soul to devour with unshakeable power.

The want beyond one wife yields pain, strain, and strife,
twists my thoughts; shivering, hurried, and hot.

The shallow within ourselves which extolls, cajoles, and contains,
Ignores empathy; trading faith for apathy resigned.


An alternate last line:

Ignores empathy; replaces faith with apathy resigned.

Yes. I agree that this is progress. There is still one glaring nit. You use the definitive "the" throughout this piece but then switch to no good purpose to "my" in S2; then again in S3 when you go all global with "ourselves". This is an inconsistency which is exacerbated by the strangely perverse capitalisation of the last line. It is as though the thought caught you unawares and you just cashed in on the immediacy of it all. That closing phrase is still only superficially translatable and on consideration I still have as much idea what it means as I have appreciation for the King's new clothes.
Best,
tectak

---

I would suggest that you first of all make up your mind, as to whether your aim is either 1) to communicate lucidly what is in your mind, to the reader, so that s/he understands as nearly as it is ever possible, the 'meaning'; or 2) to put out something, with a few pointers, from which the reader will take away what s/he will, with little reference to whatever your point was.

I do not agree with tectak about 'the shallow' , 'cajoling' 'extolling' etc. It is quite common to convert adjectives into nouns, e.g.-'the good, the bad and the indifferent'. It is precisely the shallow part of me, at any rate, which does a lot of cajoling: it used to cajole me into having just one cigarette; another beer on the way home, and much else. It likes extolling, too: it tells me that this or that is brilliant, the very thing -- and requires some other bit of brain to pour cold water over it.

Welcome, and everything-- but your piece doers need a revamp.

Hi abu,
I don't agree with me either but it was the definitive that rankled. The good, the bad and the indifferent is categorisation...groups if you like. In this piece "the shallow" is self-referencing and as such it is implicitly a singularity...so I question its use as a noun. That is to say, you can no more ask what is a shallow than you can ask what is a good or a bad or an indifferent. Clarity before confusion everytime for me else we all translate ourselves in to the mad....see what I mean?
Best,
tectak

Why can't the shadow be a group of debase self serving thoughts?

What shadow? You simply cannot have a "group of debase" anythings. You must say a group of DEBASED anythings. Can you see the error in your word use?
Best,
tectak

[QDeathstar]

I find your edit an improvement, but it has occurred to me, that this really relies on two lines: the first 'legs line' line, and the 'shallow' line. It would not surprise me if the first line was the one which first popped into your head -- but, in truth, does it belong as the first line? As Billy said, there is a sense of anti-climax. I think the 'shallow' line is OK where it is, but I would like to see the first line slip down the batting order, or even come in as the final punch-line. Just thoughts, though.

I could see how that would work, especially if I took tectak's advice about the the my and ourselves phrases. As I said in the beginning though, I like the idea of movement in the poem.

I'll have to consider it.


@tectak

The capatalization is definitely erroneous. Thanks for catching it. Also, shadow/shallow.

---

@leane, that would be great.