(07-08-2016, 10:37 AM)shemthepenman Wrote:  [quote='lizziep' pid='213029' dateline='1467925896']

I'd feel like my poem was not my own if I did this. I've certainly made changes I didn't like in order to make a poem better, but I have to agree that it will in some way better the outcome before I launch into a change. Sometimes I have a hard time re-conceptualizing in order to make edits and I can't do them eternally.

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i don't even see how the sentimental or egotistical connection to the poem should get in the way of what is a [hypothetically] infinitely changeable product. and this applies in Rowen's case, as well. to me, liking the faults in your poem and making edits on a website forum are not mutually exclusive concepts, as far as i'm concerned. you can do both. you can write a poem with the spelling all wrong, like it, post it, get told the spelling is all wrong, like the fact the spelling is all wrong but post an edit with the spelling corrected, anyway. you've lost nothing. you may have even gained something. a slightly less shit poem.

Ok, Shem. I do agree that it's not the end of the world to make a change and then go back on it. Yes, I'm too nervous of a person, a little bit of a control freak. But egotistical? Get serious.

I'm here to learn. I need to understand why changes need to be made and how they would effect the outcome before I launch into a revision (especially if it's a significant one that requires a hefty re-write).

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(07-08-2016, 11:33 PM)rowens Wrote:  The simple point of my argument is that the individual should, not want to do any old thing and call it art, but want to do their best, on their own, to be the best, on their own but in relation to others.

Yes, yes, yes.

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(07-09-2016, 08:11 AM)Leanne Wrote:  unless we happen to live in a nicely artistic community (and even then, it's not necessarily hippie weirdo advice that makes a poem better).  

I actually have a lot of hippie weirdo friends that I asked for advice on my poetry before coming here. Everybody was willing to read but, when I asked them for critique, all I got was crickets. And one of my friends even has an honors English degree from the University of Belfast, and she said that she couldn't critique her friends' work. I don't think she loves me enough to hurt my feelings.

Several people have questioned my desire for crit, saying that I should just write for myself. But, I have no idea how I would ever get better if I didn't get crit. I've even been chastised for wanting to get published because poetry is supposed to be a private experience, apparently.

When I read recent books of poetry, not all of the time, but most of the time I think these poems seem extensively workshopped. While they're technically sufficient, they feel to me as though they lack character. And sure enough, when I get to the Acknowledgements the author is thanking and praising a list of their workshop friends. To many people that might sound nice. But the fact that I'm thinking that as I'm reading the poems seems a real criticism to me.

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And, if I found out that van Gogh's paintings were done by a four year old retarded kid in 1991 it would affect how I experience the work.

(07-09-2016, 08:47 AM)shemthepenman Wrote:  yes, but, the complete works of EE Cummings could have been spontaneously reproduced by a random word generator. would that honestly detract from the merit of what is written?

No. A random PUNCTUATION generator, maybe.

Detract? No, I think that knowing the origins of a work can only add to its meaning. Then you have the meaning that you made of it as well as what you know about the author's process.

I agree with Blake, William. Or one of his demons. That when an eagle soars, you should look up and appreciate its genius. I read so much, I admit, I only shallowly leap over many poets and my appreciation of them. But there are so many. And I admit, I mostly favor the ones who go out on a limb, alone, and write good stuff from that alien terrain. There is so much. But this is what I like best.

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I have to admit though that I shallowly have to leap over many poets because I can. I shouldn't can. I like poets who make me can't.

(07-09-2016, 01:43 PM)rowens Wrote:  And I admit, I mostly favor the ones who go out on a limb, alone, and write good stuff from that alien terrain.

This is what I feel like I SHOULD be doing -- going it alone. That ideal of self-sufficiency gets me every time. I want help and yet I resist it at the same time because I feel like I should be able to do it myself.

(07-10-2016, 02:25 AM)lizziep Wrote:  

(07-09-2016, 01:43 PM)rowens Wrote:  And I admit, I mostly favor the ones who go out on a limb, alone, and write good stuff from that alien terrain.

This is what I feel like I SHOULD be doing -- going it alone. That ideal of self-sufficiency gets me every time. I want help and yet I resist it at the same time because I feel like I should be able to do it myself.

I went it alone most of my life. Since hanging out here and putting some poems under the microscope and thinking a lot harder about other people's poems, I find that when I go it alone, as we all do at the birth of a poem anyway, the result is more appealing to me, I catch a better way to say it before it hits the page and I feel like my reach is a little longer. I like what the workshopping process has done for and to me. I write some dead stuff with good technique now but I always wrote an unknown percentage of shit. I think my strong ones are stronger now.

Do you think a poet can write a great poem in fifteen minutes? I do. And that makes things harder for me. That's a hell of a lot to have to live up to. But I believe in such ability. I admire and love the fact that a human being can be that good. And I like that that's how high the bar is that I'm trying to reach.

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And I also admire a poet whose abilities are limited who can accomplish greatness despite personal circumstances.

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I'm attacking the whole idea of a poetry workshop. But that's not all this site is. I like that poets can post poems and get critiques from other poets and general readers. Most poetry sites don't allow that or simply don't do it.

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I think the discussion option is missing on most other poetry sites. And there have been times when I felt this site banned users and deleted discussions based on the direction the discussions were going a little too prematurely. But lately that hasn't been happening. Though many people with questionable ideas might have just learned to avoid the place.

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I just noticed that I wrote 'too prematurely' -- Imperfections like that. I want to catch them all, on my own.

I stumbled on this quote today, perfect for our conversation:

"Donald Hall and I have been sending poems back and forth twice a week for forty years... My generation did a lot with letters. Galway Kinnell and Louis Simpson and Don and I and James Wright would often send five- and six-page letters commenting on and arguing with each other's poems. I'm amazed we had the time for that... The gist of it is that no one writes alone: One needs a community."

~Robert Bly

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What's the difference between a workshop and what we do here with critique forums?

The difference is that the poet who gets critiqued has to live with his or her bad reviews, and that humiliation is vital. And in a workshop, not all workshops, but I like to generalize, poets can get the sense that it's ok to bring something sub par to the table, because that's what everyone else is doing.

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I know that the connection between poet friends and the way they influence each other's work is an aesthetic pleasure in its self. Its self. And I appreciate Deleuze and Guattari as much as Penman. I just still prefer reading the work of the individual.

(07-10-2016, 07:13 AM)rowens Wrote:  The difference is that the poet who gets critiqued has to live with his or her bad reviews, and that humiliation is vital. And in a workshop, not all workshops, but I like to generalize, poets can get the sense that it's ok to bring something sub par to the table, because that's what everyone else is doing.

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I know that the connection between poet friends and the way they influence each other's work is an aesthetic pleasure in its self. Its self. And I appreciate Deleuze and Guattari as much as Penman. I just still prefer reading the work of the individual.

when people occasionally call me penman, nowadays, it reminds me of being at school and the teachers going "penman, get out of my class!" or whatever admonition it happened to be that day.

anyway, write and edit how you like. the fact is, it is pretty clear that none of us are poetic geniuses, so if you want to reinforce your insecurities by being an island then fill your boots. but for the rest of us, it would seem, there is an understanding that due to the realisation that we are not the next Joyce or Rimbaud, maybe we can at least get better by a very simple and practical process of critique and edit. my only suggestion has been, be confident enough in yourself to make edits based on the advice of others [not always definitive, of course--the edits may be entirely experimental]. especially when the consequences can only be positive [or nil]. if posting an edit based on others suggestions on a small [sorry to say] insignificant* website is too much for your fragile ego, then maybe poetry isn't for you. because it is going to be brutal.


*just to be sure, i mean insignificant in relation to the insignificance of what you post. this isn't a publication deal. it's not going on your permanent record at the department of poetry.

(07-10-2016, 04:14 AM)rowens Wrote:  Though many people with questionable ideas might have just learned to avoid the place.

and yet you're still here

(07-10-2016, 02:36 AM)ellajam Wrote:  I went it alone most of my life. Since hanging out here and putting some poems under the microscope and thinking a lot harder about other people's poems, I find that when I go it alone, as we all do at the birth of a poem anyway, the result is more appealing to me, I catch a better way to say it before it hits the page and I feel like my reach is a little longer. I like what the workshopping process has done for and to me. I write some dead stuff with good technique now but I always wrote an unknown percentage of shit. I think my strong ones are stronger now.

Ok, so workshopping doesn't keep you from writing crap, it just makes you more able to capitalize on the good stuff. That makes sense. And, as for writing dead things well, I say: Meeeeee too

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(07-10-2016, 07:53 AM)shemthepenman Wrote:   it is pretty clear that none of us are poetic geniuses

Only history gets to decide this, 50 years after we're all dead.

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(07-10-2016, 04:14 AM)rowens Wrote:  Do you think a poet can write a great poem in fifteen minutes? I do. And that makes things harder for me. That's a hell of a lot to have to live up to. But I believe in such ability. I admire and love the fact that a human being can be that good. And I like that that's how high the bar is that I'm trying to reach.

Whatever happened to the whole 'success is 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration' thing? Is it possible to do that, probably. I'm not going to spend my life waiting around for the muse to grant me such powers. It would be sad for me to think that a glorification of natural talent like this would get in the way of the actual 'doing' of poetry.

(07-10-2016, 09:27 AM)lizziep Wrote:  

(07-10-2016, 02:36 AM)ellajam Wrote:  I went it alone most of my life. Since hanging out here and putting some poems under the microscope and thinking a lot harder about other people's poems, I find that when I go it alone, as we all do at the birth of a poem anyway, the result is more appealing to me, I catch a better way to say it before it hits the page and I feel like my reach is a little longer. I like what the workshopping process has done for and to me. I write some dead stuff with good technique now but I always wrote an unknown percentage of shit. I think my strong ones are stronger now.

Ok, so workshopping doesn't keep you from writing crap, it just makes you more able to capitalize on the good stuff. That makes sense. And, as for writing dead things well, I say: Meeeeee too

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(07-10-2016, 07:53 AM)shemthepenman Wrote:   it is pretty clear that none of us are poetic geniuses

Only history gets to decide this, 50 years after we're all dead.

no, i hate to break it to you, you're not a genius, not now and not in 50 years time.
it is actually strange, i feel like you might genuinely take offence at me telling you you're not a genius. what were you saying about egotistical?

anyway, my point is, if you want to write great poetry in this lifetime and you have the humility and self-awareness to acknowledge that you do not have a preternatural gift for writing you could do worse than experimenting with a few suggested edits. . . in fact, you could do a lot worse, you could try imagining you are a tortured genius in a world that doesn't understand you, writing by yourself, for yourself. . . and look where that's got poor old rowen. if anyone could benefit from accepting a few suggestions, it's that boy; he can barely write a coherent sentence and yet extols the virtues of self-editing!

anyway, thanks again. good discussion. learnt a lot. cheers big ears!

why is everyone picking on Rowens. I think he has a point about over-editing visa vi critiques. Some edits are good, but there have been times where I've made a suggested edit and knew it my shit poem was worse for it.

I can't imagine if people took half my critiques to edit. I mean, I try, but sometimes the poetry really is above my head. I literally told someone their poem was disjointed and didn't make zero sense... unfortunately, I was the first critique and after the poem was explained it was very good. (and there were enough clues there).

(07-10-2016, 01:28 PM)shemthepenman Wrote:  

(07-10-2016, 09:27 AM)lizziep Wrote:  

(07-10-2016, 02:36 AM)ellajam Wrote:  I went it alone most of my life. Since hanging out here and putting some poems under the microscope and thinking a lot harder about other people's poems, I find that when I go it alone, as we all do at the birth of a poem anyway, the result is more appealing to me, I catch a better way to say it before it hits the page and I feel like my reach is a little longer. I like what the workshopping process has done for and to me. I write some dead stuff with good technique now but I always wrote an unknown percentage of shit. I think my strong ones are stronger now.

Ok, so workshopping doesn't keep you from writing crap, it just makes you more able to capitalize on the good stuff. That makes sense. And, as for writing dead things well, I say: Meeeeee too

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(07-10-2016, 07:53 AM)shemthepenman Wrote:   it is pretty clear that none of us are poetic geniuses

Only history gets to decide this, 50 years after we're all dead.

no, i hate to break it to you, you're not a genius, not now and not in 50 years time.
it is actually strange, i feel like you might genuinely take offence at me telling you you're not a genius. what were you saying about egotistical?  

anyway, my point is, if you want to write great poetry in this lifetime and you have the humility and self-awareness to acknowledge that you do not have a preternatural gift for writing you could do worse than experimenting with a few suggested edits. . . in fact, you could do a lot worse, you could try imagining you are a tortured genius in a world that doesn't understand you, writing by yourself, for yourself. . . and look where that's got poor old rowen. if anyone could benefit from accepting a few suggestions, it's that boy; he can barely write a coherent sentence and yet extols the virtues of self-editing!

anyway, thanks again. good discussion. learnt a lot. cheers big ears!

Why do you have to drag everyone and everything down into the toilet with you?

I didn't go personal, you did.

reality: it's personal.

(07-10-2016, 02:13 PM)Pdeathstar Wrote:  reality: it's personal.

It shouldn't be. The only reason this is happening is because Rowen left and he no longer has anyone else to drop a massive shit on.

Let's keep it civil in here, shall we?

Lizzie, to answer your question about the difference between a workshop and what we do here in the critique forums: why, no real difference at all. Some people seem to labour under the misapprehension that this is only a place to post finished works, or only your best works, or that only perfection will be accepted. On the contrary -- "critique" is just a convenient word because for some people, "workshopping" seems to imply too much hard work. This is above all a poetry community, a place where people who share an interest can also share ideas and knowledge. We don't have to like one another (in fact, there are some people on here who I'm pretty sure I would downright loathe in real life) but it would be nice to imagine that we can put aside personal differences and defensiveness and try to be as objective as possible.

I hope this is ok.. if not delete it:

civility without honesty is sweet-nothing's to a frog.


There are very few genius' in the world. It doesn't take 50 years after death to spot a genius. Everyone knows Stephen hawking is a genius, and he isn't even dead yet.

I'm sorry, Lizzie, but by and large, Shem is right. I'm no genius, and me being in the ground 50 years ain't gonna change that. I think you are deluding yourself if you imagine yourself the next Emily Dickinson.

Critique is a tool to help you get better. If you are a genius you do not need it. But, being that it is a tool, it can be used the wrong way..

A tool helps you. For example, a drill. If you don't control the drill, it will go all over the place and cause more harm than good. Use the critiques, but, don't let the control you or your poem.

cheers

I struggle with revising my poems a lot of the time. 

Not because I think they're untouchable masterpieces that couldn't be improved, but because for me, the funnest part of writing a poem is the first 2 or 3 hours after I think of the idea. That's when I'm excited by all the possibilities, and really enjoy experimenting with things - I get a real satisfaction from creating something new.

The least exciting thing about writing for me is knowing there are aspects of a poem that could be improved, and beating my head against a wall trying to find a way to improve them. This is especially true when I've written a poem with some kind of meter. Right now I'm working on revising this poem "Vietnamese Traffic", and it just gives me a headache even though I know the poem could be much much better than it is (or maybe because I know that).

I think the workshop aspect of this site has been hugely beneficial to my writing, though. Giving critique has forced me to really think about what I like, and why I like it. Getting critique has forced me to analyze my writing in different ways, and actually work on improving my poems that I would have otherwise forgotten about. Of course, I now self-critique everything I write as I'm writing it (and afterwards) as well.

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Also, I agree with a lot of what Rowens says (certainly not all of it though). I write for myself, because it's something I enjoy doing. I like writing things I like, which is why I post here, because I think posting here helps me improve. I want to make something I like - I won't make an edit I disagree with just because a bunch of people suggest something.