starry night (haiku)

[Truerenigma]

Lovely in french, liebe, thank you! This piece was inspired by Van Gogh's "The Starry Night", I wanted to include his painting but was unable to. trueenigma, why do you feel this is not a haiku, you did not say.
Heart

A haiku contains two parts, or thoughts, with a division juxtaposing them in complicity. A haiku also contains a kigo. I know, I know, you (and wiki) say that modern haikus don't have to follow these standards, but wiki is not poetry's commanding authority.

Just because there is a trend similar to haiku that is being called haiku, that doesn't make it haiku.That doesn't make it less significant, but haiku is a form, and if the form is not followed, then it is not haiku.

There is no such thing as a "free form villinelle", or a "non-metered sonnet".

I wouldn't let it bother you. You still have a beautiful poem.

[billy]

Billy, interestingly I received this from a friend who is a student of haiku and exotic poetry.

do you have anything from his teacher (this a joke and not meant to offend )

This is what he wrote:
"the controversy would fade if people would accept that there are really two things: traditional Haiku and Modern Haiku (arguably English Language Haiku being the primary modern variant). What most people who end up in debates either don't understand or are unwilling to accept is that traditional Haiku (to my understanding and research) was a *very* strict form, one that is impossible to write in English because of the linguistic differences, the two big problems being the syllable issue (the one always noted) and the lack of a direct linguistic analog for the kireji (the word or suffix that would cut or separated the two ideas/images and/or indicated emphasis on one of them).

the first is something most people know, the 2nd assumes the western world can't juxtapose two things that have a connection. it's a fallacy, the concept is the same in both culture. back to the syl count; it's the reason many modern haiku writers as well as old haiku writers such as basho say a haiku is one breath poem, not a syl count but 1 breath, (westerners usually equate the breath to 17 syls or less )

The ironic thing is that being "about nature" was never a specific requirement of traditional Haiku, but given the form arose in a pre-industrial time, and given that there was a requirement for a season word/seasonal reference, the bulk obviously are nature related.

man is part of nature, so is a building on a hill or a crane (hoist) on a building site) nature denotes surrounding, not flora or fauna, while a senryu is purely about the human condition. basho oft wrote of boats, roads, barns and other buildings, had he a skyscraper near him he'd have spoke of it, it's on the landscape or of the landscape and can be of the moment.

People like everything in neat boxes, but obviously the world rarely lends itself to that. Any adaptation in English that does not adhere as closely as possible to traditional requirements (given the unavoidable linguistic issues) can still be legitimately labeled Haiku, but should be considered Modern, and Modern Haiku has very loose rules. Now, obviously, if you start straying really really far it gets ridiculous -- at some point it becomes silly, an affectation if not disingenuous to label a short poem Haiku. Where that point is though, could be endlessly debated".

simply stated, i see this as a lot of bollox. a sonnet does not adhere as closely as possible...it's a sonnet. if it doesn't look like a haiku it's not a haiku. a modern haiku does not have very loose rules. it has some different rules that are based on the traditional as much as possible. if the first part of this quote is true, why quantify it by saying " if you start straying really really far it gets ridiculous " in the second part. you either adhere to it as best you can or you don't

Personally, I do not think a seasonal reference is a must for Modern Haiku or ELH; however, if there is no seasonal reference, there should be other aspects of the form that make it apparent that that is what it is.

what part of

moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea

what other aspects of the haiku form that makes the reader think...mmmm this is a haiku, does the above 3 lines of poetry have?

Perhaps one test would be this: if the average reasonably informed poetry reader (not a scholar, but neither someone off the street who never reads poetry) can't read it and, when asked what type of poem it is, say "I think its a Haiku", then you have probably strayed too far.

I found this enlightening.

i too found it enlightening

my best!
Heart

it's common knowledge that there's a syllable issue, this was gotten over by making it a poem that can be said in a normal breath.

---

just adding with an edit that i appreciate your thoughts and time and that i can see where you're coming from.
if i accept your friends views as just so, then i have to say i can only see your poem as a short poem. not a bad short poem but a short poem nonetheless.

[Truerenigma]

Billy, interestingly I received this from a friend who is a student of haiku and exotic poetry.

do you have anything from his teacher (this a joke and not meant to offend )

This is what he wrote:
"the controversy would fade if people would accept that there are really two things: traditional Haiku and Modern Haiku (arguably English Language Haiku being the primary modern variant). What most people who end up in debates either don't understand or are unwilling to accept is that traditional Haiku (to my understanding and research) was a *very* strict form, one that is impossible to write in English because of the linguistic differences, the two big problems being the syllable issue (the one always noted) and the lack of a direct linguistic analog for the kireji (the word or suffix that would cut or separated the two ideas/images and/or indicated emphasis on one of them).

the first is something most people know, the 2nd assumes the western world can't juxtapose two things that have a connection. it's a fallacy, the concept is the same in both culture. back to the syl count; it's the reason many modern haiku writers as well as old haiku writers such as basho say a haiku is one breath poem, not a syl count but 1 breath, (westerners usually equate the breath to 17 syls or less )

The ironic thing is that being "about nature" was never a specific requirement of traditional Haiku, but given the form arose in a pre-industrial time, and given that there was a requirement for a season word/seasonal reference, the bulk obviously are nature related.

man is part of nature, so is a building on a hill or a crane (hoist) on a building site) nature denotes surrounding, not flora or fauna, while a senryu is purely about the human condition. basho oft wrote of boats, roads, barns and other buildings, had he a skyscraper near him he'd have spoke of it, it's on the landscape or of the landscape and can be of the moment.

People like everything in neat boxes, but obviously the world rarely lends itself to that. Any adaptation in English that does not adhere as closely as possible to traditional requirements (given the unavoidable linguistic issues) can still be legitimately labeled Haiku, but should be considered Modern, and Modern Haiku has very loose rules. Now, obviously, if you start straying really really far it gets ridiculous -- at some point it becomes silly, an affectation if not disingenuous to label a short poem Haiku. Where that point is though, could be endlessly debated".

simply stated, i see this as a lot of bollox. a sonnet does not adhere as closely as possible...it's a sonnet. if it doesn't look like a haiku it's not a haiku. a modern haiku does not have very loose rules. it has some different rules that are based on the traditional as much as possible. if the first part of this quote is true, why quantify it by saying " if you start straying really really far it gets ridiculous " in the second part. you either adhere to it as best you can or you don't

Personally, I do not think a seasonal reference is a must for Modern Haiku or ELH; however, if there is no seasonal reference, there should be other aspects of the form that make it apparent that that is what it is.

what part of

moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea

what other aspects of the haiku form that makes the reader think...mmmm this is a haiku, does the above 3 lines of poetry have?

Perhaps one test would be this: if the average reasonably informed poetry reader (not a scholar, but neither someone off the street who never reads poetry) can't read it and, when asked what type of poem it is, say "I think its a Haiku", then you have probably strayed too far.

I found this enlightening.

i too found it enlightening

my best!
Heart

it's common knowledge that there's a syllable issue, this was gotten over by making it a poem that can be said in a normal breath.

---

just adding with an edit that i appreciate your thoughts and time and that i can see where you're coming from.
if i accept your friends views as just so, then i have to say i can only see your poem as a short poem. not a bad short poem but a short poem nonetheless.

This changes nothing for me. This modern "form" ((which is not a form at all, since there is no format) is not haiku, but a derivative of haiku, and should be called something else entirely, perhaps "short american poems".

You're not going to convince the whole world that your poem is written in haiku form, no matter how many arguments you present. I didn't read it as a haiku.

I wonder, do you put nearly as much thought and effort into reviewing and critiquing other peoples' poems as you do in defending your own? You haven't even bothered to comment on ANY of mine.

A simple "thank you for your review, I'll take it under advisement" would suffice. If you would like to discuss haiku form, related forms, and the controversies surrounding them, perhaps you should start another thread.

[Todd]

At this point we've strayed too far from the critiquing of the poem. I've appreciated the discussion, but let's please move this to Poetry Discussion. Thanks/admin

[billy]

Billy, interestingly I received this from a friend who is a student of haiku and exotic poetry.

do you have anything from his teacher (this a joke and not meant to offend )

This is what he wrote:
"the controversy would fade if people would accept that there are really two things: traditional Haiku and Modern Haiku (arguably English Language Haiku being the primary modern variant). What most people who end up in debates either don't understand or are unwilling to accept is that traditional Haiku (to my understanding and research) was a *very* strict form, one that is impossible to write in English because of the linguistic differences, the two big problems being the syllable issue (the one always noted) and the lack of a direct linguistic analog for the kireji (the word or suffix that would cut or separated the two ideas/images and/or indicated emphasis on one of them).

the first is something most people know, the 2nd assumes the western world can't juxtapose two things that have a connection. it's a fallacy, the concept is the same in both culture. back to the syl count; it's the reason many modern haiku writers as well as old haiku writers such as basho say a haiku is one breath poem, not a syl count but 1 breath, (westerners usually equate the breath to 17 syls or less )

The ironic thing is that being "about nature" was never a specific requirement of traditional Haiku, but given the form arose in a pre-industrial time, and given that there was a requirement for a season word/seasonal reference, the bulk obviously are nature related.

man is part of nature, so is a building on a hill or a crane (hoist) on a building site) nature denotes surrounding, not flora or fauna, while a senryu is purely about the human condition. basho oft wrote of boats, roads, barns and other buildings, had he a skyscraper near him he'd have spoke of it, it's on the landscape or of the landscape and can be of the moment.

People like everything in neat boxes, but obviously the world rarely lends itself to that. Any adaptation in English that does not adhere as closely as possible to traditional requirements (given the unavoidable linguistic issues) can still be legitimately labeled Haiku, but should be considered Modern, and Modern Haiku has very loose rules. Now, obviously, if you start straying really really far it gets ridiculous -- at some point it becomes silly, an affectation if not disingenuous to label a short poem Haiku. Where that point is though, could be endlessly debated".

simply stated, i see this as a lot of bollox. a sonnet does not adhere as closely as possible...it's a sonnet. if it doesn't look like a haiku it's not a haiku. a modern haiku does not have very loose rules. it has some different rules that are based on the traditional as much as possible. if the first part of this quote is true, why quantify it by saying " if you start straying really really far it gets ridiculous " in the second part. you either adhere to it as best you can or you don't

Personally, I do not think a seasonal reference is a must for Modern Haiku or ELH; however, if there is no seasonal reference, there should be other aspects of the form that make it apparent that that is what it is.

what part of

moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea

what other aspects of the haiku form that makes the reader think...mmmm this is a haiku, does the above 3 lines of poetry have?

Perhaps one test would be this: if the average reasonably informed poetry reader (not a scholar, but neither someone off the street who never reads poetry) can't read it and, when asked what type of poem it is, say "I think its a Haiku", then you have probably strayed too far.

I found this enlightening.

i too found it enlightening

my best!
Heart

it's common knowledge that there's a syllable issue, this was gotten over by making it a poem that can be said in a normal breath.

---

just adding with an edit that i appreciate your thoughts and time and that i can see where you're coming from.
if i accept your friends views as just so, then i have to say i can only see your poem as a short poem. not a bad short poem but a short poem nonetheless.

This changes nothing for me. This modern "form" ((which is not a form at all, since there is no format) is not haiku, but a derivative of haiku, and should be called something else entirely, perhaps "short american poems".

You're not going to convince the whole world that your poem is written in haiku form, no matter how many arguments you present. I didn't read it as a haiku.

I wonder, do you put nearly as much thought and effort into reviewing and critiquing other peoples' poems as you do in defending your own? You haven't even bothered to comment on ANY of mine.

A simple "thank you for your review, I'll take it under advisement" would suffice. If you would like to discuss haiku form, related forms, and the controversies surrounding them, perhaps you should start another thread.

not sure, is your response to me?

[Heartafire]

do you have anything from his teacher (this a joke and not meant to offend )

the first is something most people know, the 2nd assumes the western world can't juxtapose two things that have a connection. it's a fallacy, the concept is the same in both culture. back to the syl count; it's the reason many modern haiku writers as well as old haiku writers such as basho say a haiku is one breath poem, not a syl count but 1 breath, (westerners usually equate the breath to 17 syls or less )

man is part of nature, so is a building on a hill or a crane (hoist) on a building site) nature denotes surrounding, not flora or fauna, while a senryu is purely about the human condition. basho oft wrote of boats, roads, barns and other buildings, had he a skyscraper near him he'd have spoke of it, it's on the landscape or of the landscape and can be of the moment.

simply stated, i see this as a lot of bollox. a sonnet does not adhere as closely as possible...it's a sonnet. if it doesn't look like a haiku it's not a haiku. a modern haiku does not have very loose rules. it has some different rules that are based on the traditional as much as possible. if the first part of this quote is true, why quantify it by saying " if you start straying really really far it gets ridiculous " in the second part. you either adhere to it as best you can or you don't

what part of

moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea

what other aspects of the haiku form that makes the reader think...mmmm this is a haiku, does the above 3 lines of poetry have?

i too found it enlightening

it's common knowledge that there's a syllable issue, this was gotten over by making it a poem that can be said in a normal breath.

---

just adding with an edit that i appreciate your thoughts and time and that i can see where you're coming from.
if i accept your friends views as just so, then i have to say i can only see your poem as a short poem. not a bad short poem but a short poem nonetheless.

This changes nothing for me. This modern "form" ((which is not a form at all, since there is no format) is not haiku, but a derivative of haiku, and should be called something else entirely, perhaps "short american poems".

You're not going to convince the whole world that your poem is written in haiku form, no matter how many arguments you present. I didn't read it as a haiku.

I wonder, do you put nearly as much thought and effort into reviewing and critiquing other peoples' poems as you do in defending your own? You haven't even bothered to comment on ANY of mine.

A simple "thank you for your review, I'll take it under advisement" would suffice. If you would like to discuss haiku form, related forms, and the controversies surrounding them, perhaps you should start another thread.

not sure, is your response to me?

[billy]

This changes nothing for me. This modern "form" ((which is not a form at all, since there is no format) is not haiku, but a derivative of haiku, and should be called something else entirely, perhaps "short american poems".

You're not going to convince the whole world that your poem is written in haiku form, no matter how many arguments you present. I didn't read it as a haiku.

I wonder, do you put nearly as much thought and effort into reviewing and critiquing other peoples' poems as you do in defending your own? You haven't even bothered to comment on ANY of mine.

A simple "thank you for your review, I'll take it under advisement" would suffice. If you would like to discuss haiku form, related forms, and the controversies surrounding them, perhaps you should start another thread.

the thing being discussed pertained to hearts poem. some including me felt some of the criteria of a haiku were missing, heart feels the missing parts are acceptable. there's nothing wrong in what's been said, two camps with two pov's. people are not forced to do a tit for tat s far as feedback goes, she comments on other peoples poetry and that's enough. i don't think she comments on my poetry either, again, that's all good, she gives feedback elsewhere and that's all we ask. while a thank you is often the best reply, this is a workshop and if you wish to explain why you do a certain form as you do, it's okay. it's okay that you didn't see it as haiku, i too felt it veered too far from the form but walking away is double edged sword, if you didn't like how she replied you too could have walked away.

I wonder, do you put nearly as much thought and effort into reviewing and critiquing other peoples' poems as you do in defending your own? You haven't even bothered to comment on ANY of mine.

while you may think the above true, it is attacking the poet, attack the poem by all means but never the poet, no matter how you feel. we can as you say, always walk away.

back on topic, i moved this to the discussion forum. it isn't about defending ones poem, all it's turned into is a discussion about haiku. while it may get a little heated, do not attack the poster. no remarks as to how they post etc. keep it to the discussion.

haiku, does it need a seasonal word. while i've read it doesn't, i'm of a mind it does, the modern haiku seems to be hijacked by those who say you can't do this with it or that, and to some extent i agree, the syl count doesn't work, the way it's written often falls short. but to say we can't in the west use the cut seems slanderous

for me it's automatic to think it a non haiku without a seasonal word.
and again without the cut, (the japanese terms aren't really needed) i also think it's about capturing a moment in time, without using poetic devices. this is just my pov, it's not rules, i'm not that smart i can create rules for it. after a fair bit of reading i came to the conclusion that there comes a point when what we start with such as haiku, sonnet etc, stops being relatively true to itself. by all means write 6 line sonnet but call it a six line sonnet. etc but don't call it a sonnet.

[Heartafire]

Hi, certainly not wanting to stir this discussion up at all, but I do want to apologize to you, trueenigma, for having neglected to respond to your initial comment on Starry Night. Truth is it simply slipped my mind (the pills, ya know?). Please forgive my oversight, I appreciate all comments and information passed on to me.
my best,
Heart