starry night (haiku)

[Heartafire]

moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea

[softlyfalling]

There is something uncanny and stark about this. Like Nature with razor sharp edges.
I am awed, really, by haiku domn well. What an art. What a skill. What a GIFT!

[billy]

moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea

i like it, should there be a seasonal word in there?

[Heartafire]

moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea

i like it, should there be a seasonal word in there?

Hi Billy, thanks so much for stopping here. I imagine the use of seasonal words is optional now, it seems a lot of the traditional critieria has been abandoned in order to accommodate many languages. Here is an example of a haiku by Basho. I find many
exotic forms do not include a seasonal reference...but what do I know? Please take all info. with a grain of salt.
A wild sea-
In the distance over Sado
The Milky Way.
My best and thanks again,
Heart

[lolo]

My reply:


moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea


with each scrape
birthing a wave.

Lovley ku.

[Todd]

moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea

I like the play of pin-point and pierce. There's also something about moonless that lends a haunting quality.

Enjoyed this

[billy]

moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea

i like it, should there be a seasonal word in there?

Hi Billy, thanks so much for stopping here. I imagine the use of seasonal words is optional now, it seems a lot of the traditional critieria has been abandoned in order to accommodate many languages. Here is an example of a haiku by Basho. I find many
exotic forms do not include a seasonal reference...but what do I know? Please take all info. with a grain of salt.
A wild sea-
In the distance over Sado
The Milky Way.
My best and thanks again,
Heart

wild sea denotes winter.
it may not be obvious but there is always a seasonal word in haiku. in a short poem it's optional in a haiku it classed as mandatory for the form.
certain birds are seasonal words, plants too. things like blossom, pine cones, bees, lambs and hundreds more.

[Heartafire]

[quote='Heartafire' pid='120220' dateline='1363967218']
moonless night
pin-point stars
pierce the sea

i like it, should there be a seasonal word in there?

Hi Billy, thanks so much for stopping here. I imagine the use of seasonal words is optional now, it seems a lot of the traditional critieria has been abandoned in order to accommodate many languages. Here is an example of a haiku by Basho. I find many
exotic forms do not include a seasonal reference...but what do I know? Please take all info. with a grain of salt.
A wild sea-
In the distance over Sado
The Milky Way.
My best and thanks again,
Heart

wild sea denotes winter.
it may not be obvious but there is always a seasonal word in haiku. in a short poem it's optional in a haiku it classed as mandatory for the form.
certain birds are seasonal words, plants too. things like blossom, pine cones, bees, lambs and hundreds more.
[/quote

Hi Billy, I suppose this falls under the controversy regarding free form haiku. Note this information I am c/p from wikipedia...we know it must be legitimate if it is in wiki, no? ;-).
Kigo

Main article: Kigo

A haiku traditionally contains a kigo, a defined word or phrase that symbolizes or implies the season of the poem, which is drawn from a saijiki, an extensive but defined list of such words.

Kigo are often in the form of metonyms[citation needed] and can be difficult for those who lack Japanese cultural references to spot.[citation needed] The Bashō examples below include "kawazu", "frog" implying spring, and "shigure", a rain shower in late autumn or early winter. Kigo are not always included in non-Japanese haiku or by modern writers of Japanese "free-form" haiku.[citation needed].
Where I live a wild sea would designate summer and fall, not winter, but that is irrelevant, just a mention. Thanks Billy, it is fun to study this ever changing poetic form.
Best,
Heart

---

Hi Softlyfalling, lolo, and Todd, thank you for reading and the kind words. Love the additional lines you hav added Lolo, very lovely.

[Soaring Eagle]

Heart regardless of the debates surrounding Haiku, I really enjoyed this piece. There is something penetrating to the heart when you read it. Awesome work here. This Haiku speaks to me. I look forward to read more of your work.

[milo]

i like it, should there be a seasonal word in there?

Hi Billy, thanks so much for stopping here. I imagine the use of seasonal words is optional now, it seems a lot of the traditional critieria has been abandoned in order to accommodate many languages. Here is an example of a haiku by Basho. I find many
exotic forms do not include a seasonal reference...but what do I know? Please take all info. with a grain of salt.
A wild sea-
In the distance over Sado
The Milky Way.
My best and thanks again,
Heart

wild sea denotes winter.
it may not be obvious but there is always a seasonal word in haiku. in a short poem it's optional in a haiku it classed as mandatory for the form.
certain birds are seasonal words, plants too. things like blossom, pine cones, bees, lambs and hundreds more.
[/quote

Hi Billy, I suppose this falls under the controversy regarding free form haiku. Note this information I am c/p from wikipedia...we know it must be legitimate if it is in wiki, no? ;-).
Kigo

Main article: Kigo

A haiku traditionally contains a kigo, a defined word or phrase that symbolizes or implies the season of the poem, which is drawn from a saijiki, an extensive but defined list of such words.

Kigo are often in the form of metonyms[citation needed] and can be difficult for those who lack Japanese cultural references to spot.[citation needed] The Bashō examples below include "kawazu", "frog" implying spring, and "shigure", a rain shower in late autumn or early winter. Kigo are not always included in non-Japanese haiku or by modern writers of Japanese "free-form" haiku.[citation needed].
Where I live a wild sea would designate summer and fall, not winter, but that is irrelevant, just a mention. Thanks Billy, it is fun to study this ever changing poetic form.
Best,
Heart

---

Hi Softlyfalling, lolo, and Todd, thank you for reading and the kind words. Love the additional lines you hav added Lolo, very lovely.

just to clear up 1 point, wild sea is not a word in Japanese but an ON that includes winter, it is irrelevant where you live.

I agree with English not needing a seasonal reference as we do not have a pictographic language anyway so most of the great seasonals just wouldn't work. That being said, maybe haiku never truly work in English as, once again, our "syllables" lack the additions of the pictographs that make Haiku successful, we end up just writing short, terse poems.

milo

[Truerenigma]

This is so beautiful
Breathtaking actually
Just not a haiku

[Heartafire]

Milo, I agree with your premise in light of the japanese phonetic sounds, but we try. Soaring Eagle and trueengima, so glad you enjoyed this. Thank you for your comments.

[serge gurkski]

Ha! Mon chou-fleur. We need that in French.
gimme me a minute.

Nuit sans lune
etoiles exactes
piquent la mer.

;-)

Hm.

the English is better.

[Heartafire]

Lovely in french, liebe, thank you! This piece was inspired by Van Gogh's "The Starry Night", I wanted to include his painting but was unable to. trueenigma, why do you feel this is not a haiku, you did not say.
Heart

[serge gurkski]

i recall it ( the painting)

[Heartafire]

i recall it ( the painting)

I like that! Danke liebe.

[billy]

Kigo are not always included in non-Japanese haiku or by modern writers of Japanese "free-form" haiku[/b].[citation needed].

Best,
Heart

then i have a question, what is a free form haiku? how is it defined (is it a form poem, does it have rules?)

if i see Haiku in the title i can only give feedback on it (not your poem but all poems titled haiku) in respect it should be treated as a haiku which i presume is different from free form haiku.

i get the impression the free form haiku is a simple three line poem without rules, if this is so i'm not sure it can be critiqued, i'm not sure it requires much skill to write and i'm not sure it can be differentiated from the senryu

mmmm

[Heartafire]

Billy, interestingly I received this from a friend who is a student of haiku and exotic poetry. This is what he wrote:
"the controversy would fade if people would accept that there are really two things: traditional Haiku and Modern Haiku (arguably English Language Haiku being the primary modern variant). What most people who end up in debates either don't understand or are unwilling to accept is that traditional Haiku (to my understanding and research) was a *very* strict form, one that is impossible to write in English because of the linguistic differences, the two big problems being the syllable issue (the one always noted) and the lack of a direct linguistic analog for the kireji (the word or suffix that would cut or separated the two ideas/images and/or indicated emphasis on one of them).

The ironic thing is that being "about nature" was never a specific requirement of traditional Haiku, but given the form arose in a pre-industrial time, and given that there was a requirement for a season word/seasonal reference, the bulk obviously are nature related.

People like everything in neat boxes, but obviously the world rarely lends itself to that. Any adaptation in English that does not adhere as closely as possible to traditional requirements (given the unavoidable linguistic issues) can still be legitimately labeled Haiku, but should be considered Modern, and Modern Haiku has very loose rules. Now, obviously, if you start straying really really far it gets ridiculous -- at some point it becomes silly, an affectation if not disingenuous to label a short poem Haiku. Where that point is though, could be endlessly debated".

Personally, I do not think a seasonal reference is a must for Modern Haiku or ELH; however, if there is no seasonal reference, there should be other aspects of the form that make it apparent that that is what it is. Perhaps one test would be this: if the average reasonably informed poetry reader (not a scholar, but neither someone off the street who never reads poetry) can't read it and, when asked what type of poem it is, say "I think its a Haiku", then you have probably strayed too far.

I found this enlightening.
my best!
Heart

[serge gurkski]

I would dig me some grass now.

(I think I managed to smuggle some seasonal into this).

[Todd]

A lot of good discussion in this thread. It would probably be worth having at some point in the discussion forum so others don't miss it.