Is it proper

[billy]

that poets often neglect to use proper grammar or neglect it all together.
i realise things like haiku can get away with not using it at all but i'm on about the larger to ten verse poems.

what sense does it make to use periods yet forgo a capital letter at the beginning of a sentence. why use small i's. why not use any. is it good practice to do any of the above. will it eventually affect the written word in general? just curious as to how others view the phenomenon.

[abu nuwas]

Any style may be valid --but...there is no guarantee that it may not drive the reader up the wall! Emily Dickinson seems to have hit on the idea of a kind of universal punctuation, and it is quite comprehensible. For me, I must use grammar, and, although I sometimes am too lazy to alter things, I regard the whole business of punctuation as part of the tool-box, or palette if you wish, or armoury. Colons, semi-colons, commas and full-stops all have specialised roles, in my universe, with greater or lesser pauses associated with them. I also believe that the end of a line may require a comma, but will anyway have a mini-break just by dint of being the end of the line.

Other people write differently -- ee cummings eg -- and so I read what has been set before me, and try to pick up where the writer is coming from.

There is also the issue of what people can do. We all come to adulthood with whatever we have gleaned from childhood. If that does not include much grammar, that should not be a bar to writing -- but it does open the door to a bit of continuing education. My instinct is, that this grammar business is not rocket-science, and mostly people's work would be much more readable, if they just mastered two or three things -- but I do see that I think that, because I am me......(which itself, theoretically, is ungrammatical).

Interesting stuff, Billy.

[billy]

have to go out now (5:50 am ) but will reply when i get back. i think you bring up some good points.

[Touchstone]

I think you have to differentiate between three broad classes of "mis-use"
1. The deliberate breaking of rules, by people who fully understand them, to achieve specifically desired effects. That is, in a word, art. And the people who can pull it off are the greatest of artists (and poets).
2. The uncaring breaking of rules by people who think they're unimportant. That is, simply, amateurish. It shows a lack of respect for oneself and one's readers.
3. The unknowing breaking of rules by the uneducated. [No value judgement there, particularly over grammar which is not taught anywhere near as rigorously as it once was and which is subject to all manner of exceptions.] I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with that, particularly if it is corrected once it is pointed out. [And any poet who is taking the art remotely seriously will learn from their mistakes.]

[abu nuwas]

You put it very well, Mr or Mrs Touchstone.

Certainly, it is not a crime not to have been exposed to tuition, and the teaching of grammar seems to be patchy. There is also the question of one's natural speech -- I have written one or two in Cockney, using rhyming slang and so on, and the grammar of this, is slightly different from Standard English. The same would apply to, say, poems in the Shetland dialect, which is practically incomprehensible to me.

[billy]

both say what i wanted to say but couldn't cos i had to go out

picking up on the 2nd point of Touchsone; some of those poets actually think they know rules when often it's delusional which for me compounds the stupidity. when giving feedback about grammar i've often seen grammar police comments and i think it sad that some mentions a grammar mistake only to be told off. on point three, if you don't have the education to know then it's okay, it's really one of the reason we're here, i for one know my grammar isn't the best. but i do sometimes leave commas out on purpose at line ends because it's a natural pause. (i also leave them out mid-sentence, which is :blush)

i do think some poets go through phases trying to find themselves or their own style (for want of better words) and in doing so fail to see they're often emulating poets they may like. i often use the ee cummings 'i' but only because i forget to cap it.
i think minimalistic grammar often causes more problems that an author/ress thinks. they ten not to use a line break instead and sometimes a sentence loses some syntax.

abu;
most definitely on the different dialects of language from within your own country, unless you know it you'll probably see mistakes, more-so if it's a foreign local dialect. but i can't see this as being to big a problem if you're prepared to get into the thing and even do a google if unsure. (or ask the poet if it's a forum) i love poetry that uses local colloquialisms.

one of my pet peeves is the use of a period not followed by a cap. i can accept no grammar, but feel if you use it. use it properly, or at least try to. of course, exceptions would be abc poems etc.

i also think with poetry, we have an extra piece of grammar that gets misused without knowledge (i misuse it often) and that's enjambment. i know it's a poetical device but it's also used as a period comma hyphen etc
it's also used t break down a line mid line to create an effect. often it's done so in ways that create bad effects. for me it's often misused by poets who think it works, they often get miffed when the fact is pointed out.

[Leanne]

one of my pet peeves is the use of a period not followed by a cap. i can accept no grammar, but feel if you use it. use it properly, or at least try to.

Oh, the irony

Like anything in writing, you really should know the rules before breaking them, so that any break actually has an impact rather than just being written off as ignorance by the reader. That is not to say that everyone who comes here should know all the rules of grammar or risk damage to dangling participles -- but if someone takes the time to point out a grammatical problem, it's usually because it's caused them to pause or feel awkward about a line and that's damn good advice in most cases. If you've done it deliberately, then it's feedback that tells you you've achieved your goal; if it's an accident, or ignorance, then you've learned something.

As a rule (not a hard and fast one) I really only use the uncapped i to imply that the personal is irrelevant or subdued in some way -- or if I use no punctuation or caps whatsoever in a poem, for a "clean" look.

As to enjambment, there's a thread here somewhere that Todd started on line breaks and it's a really good one, well worth a read. In poetry we have a limited space to say what we need to say, so not only does every word count, but also every dot or squiggle or space.

[billy]

what do you mean the irony

usually i try to use all grammar or zero grammar bar an initial cap and a final period.

in feedback and other posts i don't have enough time to care, (sorry)

[abu nuwas]

what do you mean the irony

usually i try to use all grammar or zero grammar bar an initial cap and a final period.

in feedback and other posts i don't have enough time to care, (sorry)

I am sure Leanne can speak for herself. However, I sense that there is a gulf between those for whom it is simply a part of written expression, whatever they write, and those for whom it is a rather painful 'bolt-on', to be used, if necessary in poetry or some formal writing, but otherwise dispensed with. I believe that this is self-perpetuating: the more used one becomes to grammarless text, the more normal it seems, and so it does not improve the ability to write well, in terms of grammar. Further, people who read badly written material on a regular basis, themselves learn bad habits, or unlearn good ones. Even I, I, Billy, have picked up a few spelling doubts over the years....

Presumably, we must all work with what we have-- but striving to improve on the grammar front seems just as worthy as doing so, on the poetry front. Otherwise, we may all say 'old dogs, new tricks', or, if we are young, go with the Germans 'Ich bin so'. And that would never do! (Pace, any German site-members....)

PS I suppose it is a certainty that I have written all sorts of errors here; it seems to be a special case of Sod's Law.

[Wildcard]

With punctuation and grammar, I really have no room to talk because I only only fake good grammar poorly. I would like to say that I always punctuate correctly because I think it's for the best, but I don't fully understand all the rules. Theoretically though, wouldn't it make sense to practice good grammar, punctuation and capitalization at all times? Whether chatting, texting or posting, an opportunity to refine word usage and punctuation skills is presented - I say take it.

[Touchstone]

I've actually changed my mind (a little) from my earlier observation.

Nobody is perfect. I'm no art connoisseur but I suspect that every single brush stroke Da Vinci every painted isn't perfect. I also recall hearing that a lot of artists have trouble drawing hands. Yet the overall impression of their works can well be great in spite of the imperfections (if they're relatively minor).

So there is perhaps a fourth group of people--those whose strengths in other areas outweigh their personal weaknesses in others. If a longish poem had perfect rhythmic form and new and stunning metaphors, would it really matter if, intentional or not, corrected or not, a technically superfluous comma was present somewhere for no reason other than personal idiosyncrasy?

[Wildcard]

Maybe not in actuality, but isn't perception a huge part of art?

[abu nuwas]

Touchstone --
Nobody is perfect. I'm no art connoisseur but I suspect that every single brush stroke Da Vinci every painted isn't perfect. I also recall hearing that a lot of artists have trouble drawing hands. Yet the overall impression of their works can well be great in spite of the imperfections (if they're relatively minor).

Perfection is a difficult term, but there is an idea, for example in silversmithing, that the craftsman should make his tools, chisels and so on. They will be unique, and so, therefore, will be anything made with them. In other words, a thing can be good not despite, but because of the 'imperfections'.

Mark --- Surely-- some would say perception is all, or at least the greater part of artistic endeavour. It may be less obvious in the more cerebral or abstract forms, but I would think it must still be there. Hmmmm............................................................

[billy]

i do agree that often an imperfection in a line of poetry can improve it. i often had a reply that states "yes i see what you mean when you say that" and i'm thinking 'WTF' then i see what they saw and the idea i see was never an idea at all but i take the credit and give some bullshit as to how i planned it that way.

abu my I's are almost often i's mainly because i can't type well, i'm trying to churn out words and thoughts as fast as i can and an i is easier than an I. were it a job application, they would all be I's. if i stopped to do it properly i wouldn't be able to get through all the posts i do. seriously, i do admire those who type in good grammar. i also admire anyone who takes the time to post even in bad grammar. i do prefer good grammar in poetry though.

[grannyjill]

Hi, folks - two things I wish to say.
One. I was taught to type at the age of 17ish, and it is one of the most useful things I've ever learned. So, I type with ease. It must be really difficult for people who have to look at the keyboard, and use only a few fingers.
Two. From an ignorant beginning I made it to a grammar school. There I learned how to speak correctly, spell correctly (and with various degrees of success) was taught how to write grammatically correct sentences (like Mark, though I can'texplain the rules of grammar).

So, if I see 'it's' when the writer means 'its' it spoils what they are trying to convey to me. I cannot help being as I am, but then, they cannot help being as they are.
However, recently I read a poem on another site where the writer obviously did not know he was splattering his lines with 'it's' inappropriately - should I tell him? I decided not, especially when I saw some-one else had pointed it out to him. His response? To admonish the reader for not 'appreciating' his poem and to tell him to look past it's (sic)imperfections. (His poem was very poor, too).

I prefer good grammar and correct spelling in poetry and books - and will never be persuaded that it doesn't matter.

[billy]

then, if it was site for feedback he' shouldn't be posting there.
if you see me make any grammar mistakes, in a poem, please tell me,
i will appreciate it

[Wildcard]

Same here. I'd prefer my poems be correct and I won't be offended by being told of errors.

[grannyjill]

Hurrah! I feel that way too....and I like my spelling mistakes to be pointed out to me, too. I now know how to spell minuscule from being shown that my version 'miniscule' was spelled/spelt wrong.

(Incidentally, this is an occasion where I need help.....should I say 'spelled wrong' or 'spelled wrongly'?)

[billy]

i don't know, i'd use either; in a poem i'd have said 'spelling errors', is that a gerund

[Leanne]

Hurrah! I feel that way too....and I like my spelling mistakes to be pointed out to me, too. I now know how to spell minuscule from being shown that my version 'miniscule' was spelled/spelt wrong.

(Incidentally, this is an occasion where I need help.....should I say 'spelled wrong' or 'spelled wrongly'?)

"miniscule" is a perfectly acceptable variant of "minuscule" these days -- since it's been used (erroneously or otherwise) for about 300 years That's the beauty of a fluid language.

"wrong" vs "wrongly" -- well, it depends if you're being formal or informal. Informally, "right" and "wrong" are perfectly acceptable as adverbs in their own right, so "wrong" is quite all right If you wish to write it correctly, of course, it would have to be "wrongly".

And Billy dearest, yes, "spelling" is a gerund since it's used as a noun in that case :p