$$ and poetry

[rayheinrich]

$$ for contest entry?  $$ for reading fee?
always rip-off? / sometimes ok? / how free should free be?

[Leanne]

If there's prize money offered, I tend to think it's reasonable to ask for a small fee -- not many organisations which support poetry are extraordinarily wealthy. Several journals run contests to subsidise the cost of printing etc. Remember, most of these editors are already working for free.

It all comes down to researching the integrity of the organisation. If everyone who pays wins something -- like poetry.com's "your prize-winning poem will be published in an anthology that you can purchase for $645 plus postage and handling" -- then obviously you should steer clear. But coming from an editor's perspective, there's a lot of work involved in sorting through competition entries and ensuring equity, and it's often done for no financial recompense. All entry fees go toward the prize kitty and then, as I said earlier, into subsidising costs. Even an electronic journal has web hosting costs etc.

Automatically assuming that something is evil because there's money attached is almost the same kind of thinking that ensures that poetry remains an unsaleable commodity.

[Erthona]

Poetry Contest

Write a poem -- they say – of only 20 lines in length,
do they want it excrementally; do they want it not to stink?
Do they wish it to be profound, my thoughts contained underground,
like a fart inside my ass? Should I expel or keep it bound?
Tell me, what exactly -- do they think – they’re looking for?
Doing it to their specification, just like a five-dollar whore.
If I do it like they please – please, please, me do-do,
will they then like me, more than they like you?
Will they then award me the grand super dudu prize,
whilst I wait in my reserved spot, for my big surprise!
Here’s your two-foot by five-foot supra-pries poetic goal
in a gin-you-whine fake silver-plated plastic poetry party bowl,
with my name, handsomely engraved upon yon base,
an eight-by-ten Glaw-si-pole-a-roid, of my smiling face!
Should my, pin write, dactyl, maybe though anapaest I will try,
What would tickle their fancy, make them heave and sigh.
Iambic, or trochee, this style, of course, I will, perforce,
An’ like, a Cap’n, upon, sevn seas, will ply, the course.
But most assuredly the most important thing to keep in mind,
Is this poem I am writing here I must keep to only twenty li

–Erthona

©2005

[maximumjake]

self publish via blogs and pump pump pump that social network. Writers can really shine on twitter, as well...not necessarily poets...

this is a drunk post I literally have no idea what I'm talking about don't listen to me

[rayheinrich]

self publish via blogs and pump pump pump that social network. Writers can really shine on twitter, as well...not necessarily poets...

this is a drunk post I literally have no idea what I'm talking about don't listen to me

It's easier to not listen to you if you don't post.

That said, I admire your honesty. Well, ok, maybe 'admire' is a bit strong.
Maybe something like: I recognize you're existence to the extent that any
of us imaginary beings mimic the sentience of god-like (or cat-like) reflections
of past perturbations in the cosmic ether... something like that.

Where's the damn handbasket?

[maximumjake]

It's kind of sad, but it seems the easiest way to make good money via writing is to be able to attract a large following and sell ads/other data which companies will then pay to receive and compile...I've seen writers with journalistic backgrounds do really well in social media...you have to fit a lot in a small space so it's fucking perfect stylistically. It seems exceedingly difficult to make money through poetry.  

[Leanne]

I buy books of poetry. I subscribe to journals. I do what I can, because I'm damned if I'll ever accept that poetry should be relegated to unimportance while reality TV makes a fortune.

[maximumjake]

I'm a supporter too. Yea, it's fucked up. 

[just mercedes]

There are lots of ways to make money by writing - not many of them have to do with poetry though. I hate having to pay fees to enter contests, or to have something read, because to me $5 is a meal missed that week. Often, two meals, whereas to most of the people entering, $5 is one coffee out of twenty they drink that week. It's all a load of poo tickets anyway. I can't say I write for the love of it, because I'm too busy hating. Grrr. Fuck off, who asked you anyway? Carol Ann Duffy knows, but she's not talking. Or if she does, the accent cruels it.

[Leanne]

To Ray's original question though -- should we as poets be paying for the possibility of having poetry pay us something back?

[billy]

i'm not against contest the require a small entrance fee. (i do hate the scam sites though) that said this site has always been against advertizing anything but one's own works. if wanted as site that advertized i'd have them all over the place. we have a thread for such things as [have you been published] we have allowances in a signature for self advertizing if a members wishes to do so. and we also have a link section at the bottom of the home page where members can require us to place a link. we don't make exceptions because it's easier to control by not doing so.

one of the other problems is this. sites that sell stuff often have a higher google, alexa rating that a site that doesn't and every url that leads away from here suck a bit of life from us, the bigger the site the more the suck factor . many on the site buy books, i know i do. i also take note of what members have published and buy if and when i can. we (the site) are not advocates of any poetry contests, as they are invariably outside our control. we don't run our own poetry contest because it would set up cliques. we were invited to take part in a decent organization who run inter-web poetry contests tat are free but declined the offer (i think it was a first for the) this is our site and as of yet it's ad free. (completely add free (almost))

as an aside. i'm not a keen supporter when a new member leaves two or three links to sites that ask or expect a purchase, i'm not keen when urls are left to book sites that sell in order to make money, the name of the book and the author are all that's needed.

i do enjoin people to leave urls to insightful sites that freely give help and information.

[maximumjake]

sorry I went so off-topic. Did the classic "read the title not the thread" forum mistake.

[billy]

the question i'd raise is this: is the site a profit or non profit making site?
if 500 people pay five dollars per poem then it's impossible to call it non profit. someone is creaming off the cash at the top end. one site that i won't mention tried to get it's members to pay 20 dollars a month. yet said it was non profit, they have a good thousand or so member who are online at one time or another. i left the site because of it.

if and when the time come we can't afford to run this site for free, i'll hand it over to an individual who can afford to pay for it's upkeep without resorting to ads, i'm not doing this for any noble reason, i'm doing it because i enjoy the site this way. you lot of shit heads put way more into the site than i ever could :J:

There are lots of ways to make money by writing - not many of them have to do with poetry though. I hate having to pay fees to enter contests, or to have something read, because to me $5 is a meal missed that week. Often, two meals, whereas to most of the people entering, $5 is one coffee out of twenty they drink that week. It's all a load of poo tickets anyway. I can't say I write for the love of it, because I'm too busy hating. Grrr. Fuck off, who asked you anyway? Carol Ann Duffy knows, but she's not talking. Or if she does, the accent cruels it.

[Leanne]

sorry I went so off-topic. Did the classic "read the title not the thread" forum mistake.

It wasn't really off topic. It's all related and we like tangents

I really mistrust people who join up and instantly brag about this and that publication, with links to blogs and whatnot, expecting us to fawn all over them. This is principally a site for sharing and improving poetry, not for attention whoring and certainly not to make loads of money. (billy, where's that massive big cheque you promised me?) As billy said, we have a thread where people can post details of their own publications and they can put info in their signatures, but really this should be about what you're doing now, not what you've done in the past.

[Leanne]

There are lots of ways to make money by writing - not many of them have to do with poetry though. I hate having to pay fees to enter contests, or to have something read, because to me $5 is a meal missed that week. Often, two meals, whereas to most of the people entering, $5 is one coffee out of twenty they drink that week. It's all a load of poo tickets anyway. I can't say I write for the love of it, because I'm too busy hating. Grrr. Fuck off, who asked you anyway? Carol Ann Duffy knows, but she's not talking. Or if she does, the accent cruels it.

Give it up Mercedes, you know you love to hate it :p

I agree that paying for contests hurts and I don't do it myself, but I have a general aversion to arbitrary judging of poetry and won't enter into that debate because I know I'm a bit odd... however, some people see it as an investment in their publicity, which as we all know is the only way to make money these days. Having said that, perhaps it's not unreasonable to question whether the idea that we must pay to make money is actually damaging the credibility of our art.

[just mercedes]

I have to add that when I work as an editor for ezines etc, I don't get paid for my work, and I have to wade my way through a lot of words. I don't get paid for the majority of my published poems either, like most poets. Someone posted a snick at poets who keep a FB/twitter presence, as if that makes their work less worthwhile, less valuable. I just think I'm way better off than a poet who has no way of contacting readers - and, after all, that's why the birds sing, isn't it? So someone will listen? Why would you write, if you didn't want to be read? And on the other hand, why would you pay to be read? It's that kind of tension that creates poetry.

[Leanne]

[just mercedes]

Give it up Mercedes, you know you love to hate it :p

I agree that paying for contests hurts and I don't do it myself, but I have a general aversion to arbitrary judging of poetry and won't enter into that debate because I know I'm a bit odd... however, some people see it as an investment in their publicity, which as we all know is the only way to make money these days.  Having said that, perhaps it's not unreasonable to question whether the idea that we must pay to make money is actually damaging the credibility of our art.

Try to be Vincent, and grind your own paints? He went into debt and had to paint a portrait of the shopkeeper to pay for his supplies. You're always prostituting yourself if you go outside your home zone. I write haiku in wet sand with a stick at low tide, and they're gone on a couple of hours. That makes me happy!

[maximumjake]

sorry I went so off-topic. Did the classic "read the title not the thread" forum mistake.

It wasn't really off topic.  It's all related and we like tangents

I really mistrust people who join up and instantly brag about this and that publication, with links to blogs and whatnot, expecting us to fawn all over them.  This is principally a site for sharing and improving poetry, not for attention whoring and certainly not to make loads of money.  (billy, where's that massive big cheque you promised me?)  As billy said, we have a thread where people can post details of their own publications and they can put info in their signatures, but really this should be about what you're doing now, not what you've done in the past.

I have no blogs...though I plan to make a go at something of that nature and use whatever social media I can to increase exposure. I like twitter because it's more focused. If someone follows you on Twitter, they are most likely interested in the stuff you are doing. Especially if you have a starting body of work which has already gained some sort of internet following.  

Most people hate facebook...I love mine, because the only people that I "follow" are fucking awesome...save maybe for that girl I had a crush on and still follow even though she's posting selfies at Starbucks. Facebook is all for big brother at this point. If I post that I wrote a children's book about stars to my 3000 facebook friends, it means nothing, because perhaps only 100 are actually following and out of that, 10 are interested in stars and of the proper age range. That being said, it's still a good way to connect with other minds and form little threads, not unlike this, which can seed good things. I work in television production, and in between projects I work freelance doing anything I can...I write poetry not for bread (that's taken care of for now, I'm super grateful), but because if I don't my life is just all bad.  

there's a new social network on the horizon called ello which is in beta. Worth looking into.  

[Leanne]

I've looked into ello... a lot of hype about it being the "anti-facebook" but really, it just sounds like exactly facebook only they have a free version and then bits you pay for, rather than facebook doing all the work by setting up ways to mine your data. I don't dislike facebook, I just mostly dislike people

Having said that, facebook is the easiest and probably most effective way to get yourself noticed on the internet. Billy and addy work incredibly hard to increase our social media profile, with the Pig Pen Poetry group on Facebook and our tumblr blog, plus I think there's a twitter thingo but I don't tweet... there are ways to get yourself noticed without paying big money for it, but it's a hard slog and too many people think they should just be able to pay and receive instant gratification these days. You know when your mummy tells you you're the most amazing writer in the universe? She's a fucking idiot, and a liar to boot.