Primal (new poem, Edit 3)

[jdvanwijk]

Hello trueenigma,

Thanks for your post! I agree with you that it could be a missed opportunity to add more meaning in the poem. I'll think about it some more.

[milo]

Hello Milo,

I've tried several different things with the first verse, and now agree with you that "as the trains crashed by" just sounds a lot better. And there's a slight ambiguity to it that I now find kind of interesting. (Was it a game? Or were they scared of the trains? Or maybe the brothers were fighting (howling at each other) for hours?)

An important change in the second verse; what do you think?

I have the feeling that the last five lines can be more effective, I'm going to experiment with it some more.

All best!
Jan

I am pleased to see you eliminate an "of" statement - your instincts are correct, they always weaken poems. I am surprised I didn't point it out, I was going to post a whole discussion thread about my hatred of "of" in poems.

I am liking your changes. Last five lines could probably use a little work. Take your time, experiment some, don't forget you can always go back if you change your mind.

I am curious about "topped" now, is there a word that means the same that points to your central metaphor - maybe "buried" or "covered" or something along those lines.

---

Good job with the edits so far. I still would really like to see something a little more solid than support in S2. I know that you feel the abstract "support" is holding your metaphor up, but bridge trusses all carry their own symbolism, and hold mystical properties: column, post, cable, wire, strut, arch, beam, pillar, tower...Which best describes your support?

I actually prefer the word "support", it is a common enough term and gives the double meaning. As far as other words, it is tough to say without seeing them - column might work, though not as well as support, truss or cable wouldn't, neither would arch, span would be a great word to work into the poem but not as a substitute. Pillar might work as well but it would change the focus of the whole poem - it would immediately become important /who/ died where now it is not.

[Charlesjoseph]

[quote='jdvanwijk' pid='147654' dateline='1384870639']
Edit 3 (SkaaDee, trueenigma, milo)

Our living room shook violently
every ten minutes or so -
my brother and I spent hours
howling as the trains crashed by.

A funeral today, another
bridge support crumbling down. ------(trestle crumbling down)
And like a ghost, I appear

in front of my old home.
They buried the tracks,
topped it with a little park.

I close my eyes and hear
the fast train approaching,

inhale all the air -------------------------------------( every molecule? ) Maybe this would suit better because the way this reads to me you are inhaling air from the windows and the sun.
in the park, the streets, the city,

the light from the windows,
the sun -

and let it all out.


Hey there,
Don't want to step in on the critique here but i threw in a few things that may help and hopefully they won't hinder.
Chazz

[jdvanwijk]

Hello Chazz,

Thanks for your feedback. There can never be too much criticism, so don't worry.

[Truerenigma]

I actually prefer the word "support", it is a common enough term and gives the double meaning. As far as other words, it is tough to say without seeing them - column might work, though not as well as support, truss or cable wouldn't, neither would arch, span would be a great word to work into the poem but not as a substitute. Pillar might work as well but it would change the focus of the whole poem - it would immediately become important /who/ died where now it is not.

I suppose these things might be a matter of personal preference—it is hardly a technical issue. I was thinking column, tower, or pillar, but figured I would let the author decide. I just don't get an image or much to think about from support, but I suppose it is a more humanistic idea. Pillar would be more representative of an individual, but I like the idea of crumbling columns, which has a nice sound, a good image, and speaks more of a general breakdown in society, or just that all things eventually crumble over time, the proverbial hour glass, so to speak.

---

A cable being snapped would speak to the frailty, and lack of dependability in people, as well as the flimsiness of the "bridge".

[milo]

I actually prefer the word "support", it is a common enough term and gives the double meaning. As far as other words, it is tough to say without seeing them - column might work, though not as well as support, truss or cable wouldn't, neither would arch, span would be a great word to work into the poem but not as a substitute. Pillar might work as well but it would change the focus of the whole poem - it would immediately become important /who/ died where now it is not.

I suppose these things might be a matter of personal preference—it is hardly a technical issue. I was thinking column, tower, or pillar, but figured I would let the author decide. I just don't get an image or much to think about from support, but I suppose it is a more humanistic idea. Pillar would be more representative of an individual, but I like the idea of crumbling columns, which has a nice sound, a good image, and speaks more of a general breakdown in society, or just that all things eventually crumble over time, the proverbial hour glass, so to speak.

Yes it is up to the author but no reason not to discuss specific word usage in this poem in this thread.

For me, crumbling pretty much suggests column already but, seeing as we have a metaphorical bridge we get the erosion of the "support" of n's current ego. As people we are composed of memories, as the crumble, (the bridge between past and future) so does the support of the structure of our ego.

From column, I /only/ get column. So while the sonics and the imagery are better the total effect is weaker. IMO of course.

*note: I think column might be pretty good as well, I almost want to see the 2 next to each other.

[Truerenigma]

Further notes: as far as headstone symbols, columns represent a noble life, and broken columns represent an early death.

[milo]

Further notes: as far as headstone symbols, columns represent a noble life, and broken columns represent an early death.

Yah, maybe, but how is that related to /this/ poem. Seems like a red herring to me. Have we considered what metrically moving the caesura from before crumbling to before columns accomplishes? I feel it moves the emphasis from the crumbling to the column.

[Truerenigma]

For me, crumbling pretty much suggests column already but, seeing as we have a metaphorical bridge we get the erosion of the "support" of n's current ego. As people we are composed of memories, as the crumble, (the bridge between past and future) so does the support of the structure of our ego.

I hadn't really considered the /ego/ angle myself, but I like the way you're thinking.

Yah, maybe, but how is that related to /this/ poem. Seems like a red herring to me. Have we considered what metrically moving the caesura from before crumbling to before columns accomplishes? I feel it moves the emphasis from the crumbling to the column.

Isn't discussing a caesura before columns getting a little ahead of ourselves? It hasn't even made it into the poem! The author may leave it as it is, or come up with something far more interesting. It is a good point though, I would be interested in seeing what sort of effect it might have on the poem.

[milo]

For me, crumbling pretty much suggests column already but, seeing as we have a metaphorical bridge we get the erosion of the "support" of n's current ego. As people we are composed of memories, as the crumble, (the bridge between past and future) so does the support of the structure of our ego.

I hadn't really considered the /ego/ angle myself, but I like the way you're thinking.

Yah, maybe, but how is that related to /this/ poem. Seems like a red herring to me. Have we considered what metrically moving the caesura from before crumbling to before columns accomplishes? I feel it moves the emphasis from the crumbling to the column.

Isn't discussing a caesura before columns getting a little ahead of ourselves? It hasn't even made it into the poem! The author may leave it as it is, or come up with something far more interesting. It is a good point though, I would be interested in seeing what sort of effect it might have on the poem.

I don't know if it is ahead or not, this is pretty much the way I think so for me it seems right. Word choice is pretty important, sometimes a single word makes or breaks a poem.

---

I have the feeling that the last five lines can be more effective, I'm going to experiment with it some more.

All best!
Jan

I have been thinking a bit about the last few lines. I am not sure how you feel about "let it all out"

It is pretty close to cliche, and, reading it, I am not sure if it is clear to everyone that you are screaming. What about "and scream"?

[Truerenigma]

Word choice is pretty important, sometimes a single word makes or breaks a poem.

Inexorably true.

[jdvanwijk]

Hello milo and trueenigma,

Thanks for the suggestions, and it was great fun to read your discussion. I'm going to let the poem rest for a few days and then I'll come back to it, I think that it would be good to look at it again with some more distance.

All best,
Jan

[jdvanwijk]

Returned to this poem today, and there's a few things about which I would like to ask some advice. Any other feedback is of course very welcome as well.

Edit 3 (SkaaDee, trueenigma, milo)

Our living room shook violently
every ten minutes or so; Replaced dash by semi-colon. I think it's more subtle, but what do you think? Would a full stop/colon be better?
my brother and I spent hours
howling as the trains crashed by.

A funeral today, another
bridge support crumbling down. @Trueenigma: I've decided on "support". I've experimented a lot with the other suggestions, but somehow they felt too "concrete". The fact that "support" is somewhat abstract makes the reader skim it over just a little bit; as a reader I don't get "stuck" on the image. And for me it gives the poem a better flow to the next few lines, which are more important for me as a "concrete image". Does that make any sense?
And like a ghost, I appear

in front of my old home. Not sure about this full stop. Semi-colon?
They buried the tracks, They or they've? "They've" still sounds more powerful to me, it feels more like a "done deal", and slightly more bitter ("What have they done to the tracks??") But what do you think?
topped it with a little park. @Milo: agreed, "topped" sounds a bit funny, but I like "topped" in that it has some bitterness and sarcasm to it. "Covered" or similair verbs lose this edge a bit for me.

I close my eyes, hear Removed "and" for "hear" to keep it moving forward to the next verse. What annoys me slightly is the non-intended rhyme "and appear"/"hear" on a similar enjambment. It looks a bit too cute for me, but what do you think?
the fast train approaching,

inhale all the air
in the park, the streets, the city,

the light from the windows,
the sun - Last four lines start in/in and the/the. I don't really like the way that looks...

When read aloud, these last six lines have a good sense of "expansion" to me, but on the page it doesn't work as well; for me it visually loses tension on "The sun". How do you feel about this?

and let it all out.

@Milo: agreed, the last line borders on cliché, but somehow I feel it works here. I actually like the ambiguity that it can be read as "exhaling in acceptance" and a loud scream (which on a second read would be quite clear I think, combined with the title and the first verse). Also the fact that it's a somewhat old-fashioned 60's-70's cliché for me adds to the theme of nostalgia in the poem. "And scream" feels too direct for me.

What I still find problematic is the use of "all". Either statement "inhale all the air" and "let it all out" I feel is weakened quite a bit by removing "all", but both are weakenend somewhat because I use "all" twice. Not sure what to do here...

All best,
Jan

[LanceRocks]

Hi, I'm new to the Group. Your first stanza is strong, but the poem unfortunately recedes from that point.

See how the stanzas get smaller as we move downward through the poem? This indicates a voice reaching for something to say beyond the initial thought. It's a dwindling voice, rather than one which strengthens as it moves forward.

Ultimately, we want our final stanza to be our strongest stanza, and the last line of our poem to be the most memorable.

None of this is easy, and I wish I had words to explain how it's done. Basically, we don't want to slide into a valley with our poetry. Rather, we want to climb and climb upward until we reach a peak, where we stand proud in our accomplishment.

Unless I'm correcting grammar, a general critique such as this one is not so much about what you've posted, but about what you (and I) will write next.

So take the strength of your first stanza here and let that voice expand and grow stronger right through to the end of your next poem.

Best,

Lance

[jdvanwijk]

Hello Lance,

Thanks for your feedback! The intended effect of the shortening stanzas was one of "speeding up", but I understand that it can also be felt as a poem running out of steam. Do you feel that the problem is mostly the layout of the poem, or would you say that there's also a weakening in the words themselves?

All best!
Jan

[LanceRocks]

Do you feel that the problem is mostly the layout of the poem, or would you say that there's also a weakening in the words themselves?

Thank you, Jan. Great to meet you!

Allow me to say I'm 66 years old, a writer and performer. All my poetry is written for recitation.

In the early 1970's I earned an MFA and PhD, both in playwriting. I was an advertising copywriter for 20 years. My last intensive foray into poetry was in the 1980's, when I performed at poetry venues all over Southern California. Then, for money, I embarked on a 26 year career in financial services (retail sales) which drained my energies away from poetry, my greatest love.

Now I'm retired and returning to poetry as a self-funded writer. I'm composing 3 or 4 poems a week for posting to another writer's group. When that site went down for service two days ago I made my way here.

***

Your question is an important one relating to poetic expression as well as popular acceptance. The public likes a strong finish. Think Frost: "And that has made all the difference." I don't much care for summary conclusions but I do favor endings which seem pre-destined by what went before. "Rosebud." "That's Chinatown." The master of this was Poe.

As mentioned, achieving this effect is not easy for me because I don't plot ahead but work off the cuff: I rarely know where I'm going while writing. But I'm managing to do it more often with the daily practice I'm putting in now that poetry is my primary pastime.

The elements you mention are of course important, but the ability to finish big most fundamentally depends upon the strength of the underlying conceit. When my reader reaches the end I want them to murmer, "Of course - why didn't I think of that."

Two nights ago I completed a poem like this called "Missing Pieces." Where would you suggest I post it on the Board?

Sincerely,

Lance

P.S. I sometimes help correct errors, but most of my critiques are about general principles intended to strengthen everyone's work (including mine) going forward. Apologies for offering no further specific assistance on your poem above.

[jdvanwijk]

Hello Lance,

Nice to meet you too! I'm a pianist myself, and started writing poems about half a year ago. I've always enjoyed writing and have mainly written short stories and articles on music.

I think I understand what you mean, a good poem also needs a well prepared "punchline" so to speak.

There are a few options for posting your poem, it depends on what you're looking for. "Poems for mild critique" is useful for poems that you're not completely sure about yet, and where you would like some initial feedback. Posting in "Serious Workshopping" is equal to saying "Ladies and gentlemen, tear it apart."

All best!
Jan

[LanceRocks]

a good poem also needs a well prepared "punchline" so to speak.

[Todd]

a good poem also needs a well prepared "punchline" so to speak.

Here's the poem I referenced, it doesn't really need critique. Just want to show you a poem that finishes strong.

MISSING PIECES

It felt bad I had no poetry. Than I met a man
without vocabulary.

I cried because I had no rhymes. Then I met
a woman without conjunctions.

We write what we do and we do what we
write: that's alright.

Somebody has to be different. I tried to be
the same, but it didn't work.

When words reach down the generations,
they read odd today. So I say:

I wept when I lost my life. Then I met a man
who never had one.

Lance Jencks

Lance, I don't think this is your intent, but it's poor form to post one of your own poems in someone else's thread as an example of what to do. It comes across as arrogant, and we don't like to see other poems littering the threads in this way in any event. You're new, and like I said I don't take that attitude in your tone. I would just ask you to place your poems in their own threads in the future.

Thanks,

Todd /admin

[LanceRocks]

Thank you, Todd, my apologies. I've deleted my post and won't make this mistake again.

Sincerely,

Lance