Venus

[Erthona]

.

Great Dido, Love inflamed your passion,
then caused the object of your affliction
to flee, over the sea, away from you, secretly.
Feeble Dido, not being able to stand the ache of his loss,
you put a knife through it; then you crossed.
Did this bisection split you from your pain,
as it removed you from your mortal frame?
Exquisite Love made poor Dido go insane.
How delicious, how apropos, how…loving!

©2013 -Erthona

[tectak]

.

Great Dido, Love inflamed your passion,
then caused the object of your affliction
to flee, over the sea, away from you, secretly.
Feeble Dido, not being able to stand the ache of his loss,
you put a knife through it; then you crossed.
Did this bisection split you from your pain,
as it removed you from your mortal frame?
Exquisite Love made poor Dido go insane.
How delicious, how apropos, how…loving!

©2013 -Erthona

Poland for 1week. More on return.
Do not forget me.
tectak

[Erthona]

Say hi to Poe for me

Dale

[tectak]

Hi erthona,
sorry I didont come back to this. Dido. Bloody Dido. This legend caused great debate at my school. Most of us thought she was loopy and probably relied on a good backer when she upped Carthage...why did she top herself? Did no one just say aw...the hell with it back then. My least credible character...

Great Dido, Love inflamed your passion,
then caused the object of your affliction
to flee, over the sea, away from you, secretly.
Feeble Dido, not being able to stand the ache of his loss,
you put a knife through it; then you crossed. I find this interesting but refuse to google it. After her husband got done in by her brother whose name escapes me didn't SHE flee to Africa? I never understood the dramatic gesture of knife/funeral pyre. Why? I want this piece to tell me. Now you will say..what funeral pyre? So now you know how I feel. Not enough informed opinion ( and you are not short of that) in the piece.
Did this bisection split you from your pain,
as it removed you from your mortal frame?
Exquisite Love made poor Dido go insane.
How delicious, how apropos, how…loving! Nice stuff.Really nice....but just too rhetorical to make poem. Leaves me in vaccuo.

Well you did ask, didont you?

©2013 -Erthona

[Erthona]

Tommy two gun,

This is where she is forced to fall in love with Aeneas by Venus (his mother), he leaves her and she commits suicide. So this does take place in Africa in Carthage.

"just too rhetorical to make poem" True it is (rhetorical), still I think the irony created by Love acting very unloving raises it above the purely rhetorical, and poetry is not necessarily restricted from the use. Now if you mean didactic I might be more sympathetic to your argument. If you mean it as oratorical, I think that is a fairly large aspect of both Greek and Roman poetry. Maybe you could be more specific as to what you mean by "rhetorical"

Speaking of rhetoric,

Nice stuff.Really nice....but

everyone knows that when "but" is used in this way, it means to regard all the preceding as BS

Thanks for the comments, I will consider, but...

...but no, really thanks, I know I asked.


Dale

[ChristopherSea]

Dale, I’ll assume your Dido is the Queen of Carthage and not the singer who stole the name (just kidding). Here are some comments on your poem:

Venus *As Venus was the mother of Aeneas, I assume that it’s her monolog.
‘Venus, the goddess of love?’ would have been an apropos elaboration of your title*

. *you have a period here, I thought it was dirt on my screen*

Great Dido, Love inflamed your passion, * Using ‘Great Dido’ you had the opportunity to acknowledge her establishment of Carthage
and then contrast it with ‘Tragic Dido’ the lover*
then caused the object of your affliction
to flee, over the sea, away from you, secretly. *I like the triple rhyme and alliteration*
Feeble Dido, not being able to stand the ache of his loss, *'Feeble' strongly emphasizes how unsympathetic Venus is*
you put a knife through it;
then you crossed. Did this bisection
split you from your pain, *I might add enjambment and make a line break after bisection, using the poetical device to illustrate and emphasize fission*
as it removed you from your mortal frame?
Exquisite Love made poor Dido go insane.
How delicious, how apropos, how…loving!

I like mythology references in poetry. I am uncertain of your personal thesis, but the mocking and hateful nature of Venus is clear. Venus is certainly sociopathic, but was Dido insane or just swept up in a fit of passion and the grief of loneliness? On the other hand, she did marry her Uncle previously. Who can figure these Greek/Roman cast of characters?

Cheers/Chris

[jdvanwijk]

.

Great Dido, Love inflamed your passion,
then caused the object of your affliction I like the turn of affection to affliction.
to flee, over the sea, away from you, secretly. "away from you" feels a bit superfluous for me, but leaving it out altogether makes the ee-ee-ee rhymes of this line too obvious. Maybe insert something else that adds more meaning?
Feeble Dido, not being able to stand the ache of his loss,This line feels a bit unwieldy to me: it feels a bit too square, metrically. "Unable" instead of "not being able" already helps I think.
you put a knife through it; then you crossed.
Did this bisection split you from your pain,Bisection suddenly sounds very "medical" and clashes with the tone of the rest of your poem; on purpose probably, doesn't work for me here, because you don't build on it. What if you infuse the next lines with more and more "modern" words to prepare for the climax?
as it removed you from your mortal frame? "Mortal frame" sounds clichéd.
Exquisite Love made poor Dido go insane.Love with a capital letter is a bit too didactic for me.
How delicious, how apropos, how…loving! Quite a move in tone! I like the idea of the twist, but for me it comes a bit too sudden, the climax doesn't feel "earned" yet. Maybe add an extra line in the same ironic/sarcastic tone to prepare for the last line?



©2013 -Erthona

Hope this is of any use to you!

[jringo_]

.

Great Dido, Love inflamed your passion, Amazing opening line
then caused the object of your affliction The enjambment causes a little confusion. Is the affliction Dido's fleeing?
to flee, over the sea, away from you, secretly.
Feeble Dido, not being able to stand the ache of his loss,Amazing turning line
you put a knife through it; then you crossed. And altogether great couplet
Did this bisection split you from your pain,"bisection" seems a word that goes against the rest of the poem, in terms of tone
as it removed you from your mortal frame?This rhyme in particular feels forced
Exquisite Love made poor Dido go insane.
How delicious, how apropos, how…loving!awkward ellipses

©2013 -Erthona

Overall, a lovely poem. Some rhymes feel forced. Perhaps consider putter this into complete iambic pentameter? You're almost there already. Perhaps some stanza breaks as well, for example the final two lines seem conclusitory (look ma, I made up a word!)

[bena]

I don't "get" a ton about rhyming poetry, but when you've been in a rhyme scheme the whole way through, why back out on the last line? Knowing you, it's just to be a smart ass. It's like someone playing 7 notes of a scale on a piano then walking away....drives me absolutely buggers. I made the mistake of telling some of my classmates that when I was majoring in music and since we had a piano in our dorm lobby, they'd do it just to make me go down 3 flights of stairs just to finish it off properly. I know I'm mostly complaining, but you are good at that, too!

love ya,
sg

[Erthona]

"I like mythology references in poetry. I am uncertain of your personal thesis, but the mocking and hateful nature of Venus is clear. Venus is certainly sociopathic, but was Dido insane or just swept up in a fit of passion and the grief of loneliness? On the other hand, she did marry her Uncle previously. Who can figure these Greek/Roman cast of characters?"

Chris, in the Aeneid Venus (Aeneas' mother) forces Dido to fall in love with Aeneas so she will render aid to the "rag-ag" Trojan fleet, that has just been beat up on the high seas at the instigation of Juno. So Dido through no fault of her own, is infected by Venus. When Aeneas eventually leaves, as he must, Dido kills herself because of a broken heart. In my mind at least, Venus through her interference kills Dido in the name of love. So the simple thesis is that Love is not so loving.

Thanks for the comments Chris
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Jdvan,

"This line feels a bit unwieldy to me: it feels a bit too square, metrically. "Unable" instead of "not being able" already helps I think."

That's a good suggestion, think I'll use that. Can't believe I didn't already see it. Thanks.
"Love with a capital letter is a bit too didactic for me." I think for some if I don't cap the L, so that they understand I am referring to Venus it will be missed, and this is a fairly important point.

""Mortal frame" sounds clichéd." Probably so, but I was going for kind of a stabbing feel with pain-frame -insane, but I'll consider.

"Bisection suddenly sounds very "medical" and clashes with the tone of the rest of your poem; on purpose probably"

Yes it was. I was not just a bisection of living to dead, but also in terms of Dido's personality that was altered by Venus. The only other word I could come up with was cleave, which to me is even worse, although I love the double meaning.

Thanks for the suggestions, some good comments here.
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jringo,

The object of Dido affliction (play on words, as it is both affection and affliction) Aeneas is in fact fleeing from her. There is also this little drama which involves Aeneas' mother Venus.

Bisection and "forced" have both been pointed out. SO the preponderance of thumbs down on that has me seriously reconsidering their use.

"Perhaps consider putter this into complete iambic pentameter?"

I had considered that, but I don't want the poem stylistically pretty as it would seem I am honoring Venus by doing so. Now, I'm not saying it is a good idea, but I am willing to take a chance. My thought at the moment is, is to regularize it would put it at odds with the intent of the poem.

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate them.
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"it's just to be a smart ass."

Well, yeah, mostly but it is also to make a point.

"I know I'm mostly complaining, but you are good at that, too!"

Yes I am, it is one of my better qualities

Thanks SG (people are going to think I am calling you super girl...if they only knew!!!!)

Dale

[Laura Marx]

I don't know anything about Dido. This is the first I've heard of her! So, I will be critiquing it from that standpoint. I can't join all your witty quibbles over mythology, unfortunately! My H.D. Imagiste would be appalled, I know it.

The grammar, to me, is - I mean, it's fine, but it's a little lackluster. I feel that there should be drama in this poem. Other people have said different things; rhetorical, sarcastic... Perhaps I am reading it wrong - perhaps another cruel trick is being played on me on this forum! - but I see drama and I really want to put forward a critique that emphasis the drama in it. The grammar is the first thing, but also, the meter at times runs on and is bad.

The first three lines are really good but are at times awful.

Great Dido, Love inflamed your passion,
then caused the object of your affliction
to flee, over the sea, away from you, secretly.

The first line, beautiful. Glorious. Exalted, dramatic, very good. Greek, even. Tragic. I adore it. Perfect start. The second line; I'll get back to. The third line is grotesque. It's disgusting, it's too twee. It's too sweet. It's too much sugar. The three rhymes, and all - it doesn't suit it, to me. I don't know why you did it. And also, the first two are iambic pentameter (with a bit of swapping in the second line, which makes it awkward, to me, when examining it, but it was fine to read - strange - but I believe 'then' is an anacrusis?), and then the second one is about eight steps and it's strange. I would not expand on that last line, it rambles on, it's odd. I would shorten. Let me show you how I'd arrange it:

Great Dido, Love inflamed your passion!
Love caused the object of your affliction
to secretly flee away.

Something like that. With the DRAMA, exlamation mark and all. You have a bolded LOVE - which is perhaps Venus, personified Love? 'Venus inflamed your passion' - I don't know. But, LOVE INFLAMED YOUR PASSION! Drama! Exclamation marks! And restate: LOVE inflamed your passion! LOVE caused the object of... And then drop down - the alliteration and triple rhyme were too twee, for me, too cute. Didn't work. You've already seized me with the drama. I want drama, now. I want opera. Chop it up. It means the same thing, but it's curt and dangerous. Better aesthetically, in my view.

Feeble Dido, not being able to stand the ache of his loss,
you put a knife through it; then you crossed.

'His' is weird, here. The ache of his loss? I thought Dido was a man here, when I first read it because of that. It should be the ache of 'your' loss, I think? There's a kind of subtle rhyme between 'Dido' and 'able', a half-rhyme, that I didn't notice until I was counting syllables, that was nice. You're subtle and slippery with this, I like it - you are a talented poet. It's too long, out of meter. I want consistency.

Feeble Dido, not able to stand your loss
You put a knife through it and crossed.

Which isn't quite consistent, but it's an improvement, I think. It's much closer, the rhythm is the same. The rhythm of the original is fairly drastic, strained. I have to find it. I want a rhythm. (I am being hard on you - it is a wonderful poem and a pleasure to read.)

Did this bisection split you from your pain,
as it removed you from your mortal frame?

Perfect. Meter, perfect, rhyme, perfect, rhythm, perfect, I adore it. The whole thing is sinister, too, you're challenging this dead girl. It's sinister. The sinister element sort of introduces here - a turn? It's good. It gets more ironic. The sarcasm is coming in - but I don't understand it. I'll have to read it more. Can't comment on that, really. Not meaning only sound. You won't get meaning from me - I don't understand it.

Exquisite Love made poor Dido go insane.
How delicious, how apropos, how…loving!

I'd just push it to be more dramatic, before the end:

Exquisite Love made Dido go insane! [don't see why the poor is there - messes with the meter and it adds nothing serious]
How delicious, how apropos, how…loving!

I hated that last line at first, I thought it was silly. But, now that I've analysed the poem more in-depth, I like it. I like it a whole lot more than I did. In fact, I like it a lot. I like the poem a lot. I see what you're doing, now, a little anyway. It's a bit of a mystery to me.

It's very Old Greek in style. I'm thinking, like, Virgil's Aenids, and all. And epic poetry. And nice, not-used-very-much AABCCDEE rhyme scheme - apart from the fact that it isn't, but it plays on it - which is a nice rhyme scheme. I like the style. I just want it to be more dramatic, with more choppy punctuation and more severe meter. Amp it. Go hard. Poetry should go hard, unless you are trying to sweet talk a girl. Do not sweet talk a girl with this poem.

I don't really understand much of the Thing Narrated, though. I feel like there's a lot I'm not getting. I understand the first part - she loses her love and kills herself. Nice. Then, taunting? I don't understand. So this is one for me to mull over. I'll return to this poem a few times - try to 'get it', I think. I have not truly opened a dialogue with this poem. This isn't the mark of a loser poet, though - it's not that you haven't communicated, I just don't understand it yet. Perhaps I'm not talented enough a reader.

Good work!

ALSO, if you want my advice, split the stanza into two at the turn:

Great Dido, Love inflamed your passion,
then caused the object of your affliction
to flee, over the sea, away from you, secretly.
Feeble Dido, not being able to stand the ache of his loss,
you put a knife through it; then you crossed.

Did this bisection split you from your pain,
as it removed you from your mortal frame?
Exquisite Love made poor Dido go insane.
How delicious, how apropos, how…loving!

[Erthona]

Laura,

Thank you for taking the time to go over this in such depth. I can't say that your points are without value, however most are counter to my purpose in this poem. I think that comes as a result of our different approaches to poetry.

"My H.D. Imagiste would be appalled, I know it."

My educational background focused primarily on the English Romantics, specifically Coleridge and Blake. That said, this was my general approach to his piece. This is a monologue by Venus, so yes when I capitalized "Love", it was referencing at lest partially, her. Venus in the Aeneid, causes Dido to fall in love with Aeneas, her son, so that the Carthaginians will be well disposed to helping the Trojans out, who have just suffered greatly at the hands of Juno. Venus uses Dido extremely, causing her to fall deeply in love with Aeneas, through the intervention of Cupid who takes on the semblance of Aeneas' son in order to get close enough to Dido to infect her with "love" for Aeneas. When Aeneas leaves at the urging of the gods, Dido cannot stand the pain and kills herself, with Aeneas' sword.
The idea of the poem, is to expose the hypocrisy of love, extending the idea of Venus to encompass the archetype of romantic love as it has played out in Western civilization, showing that "Love" is not only not very loving, but in fact is sadistic, and revels in the pain created by so called love. As such the form demonstrates this by being broken after hinting at being something it is not, thus the juxtaposed IP with less smooth lines, and so on. This is an experimental form I have been working on for the last twenty years. There is no set usage or technique, the idea is that in some way the form mimics the content.
I do not contend that this approach works well, and it may be completely pointless to pursue it, but as I have nothing better to do...

I am tempted by your suggestion about splitting it, but I fear that might be showing Venus too much respect.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful comments, I will keep them in mind for further down the iter.

Dale

[jdeirmend]

Hi Dale,

I hope this doesn't come off as too harsh.

The theme of mythology is always fair game for poetry, but in playing so lightly upon the myth, in this case, neither its tragic subject matter nor its moral are done justice. Given your exegesis, and the heaviness of the subject matter, I want something that makes me feel Dido's pain. Beyond that, I'd like to see something that demonstrates that there is some real beauty and worth in the (telling of) the story as well. As much as romantic love is an impossibility, to mock it from afar smacks of an autoerotic sort of cleverness. The speaker's aloof observations thus seem to me unsympathetic to the point of being inhumane. Even so, I could see the poem developing into something gripping. For that, you would have to show some more love and respect for the myth, and flesh the poem out with some gritty images. It would also appeal to a much broader audience if you offered some narrative from the myth itself, as much as serve to educate. That most people are woefully ignorant about classical mythology isn't your problem, but to make the same both relevant, appealing and accessible is the true challenge, I think, of a poem like this.

[Erthona]

jdeirmend,

Thanks for your comments, I doubt you could be too harsh. I understand what you are saying, but to let you see Dido's pain and so forth would defeat the purpose of showing the hypocrisy of Love. The point is for Venus, the speaker, to be aloof and derisive, because this is what her actions in this situation suggest of her outlook, not just on Dido, but on all humans. Humanity is the plaything of Love. There are some other levels operative here, but that is the gist. To make it the poem you want, would be to make it a different poem. However, your comments, along with others makes me think I need to reevaluate how I am coming across. Evidently not the way I intend.

Dale

[jdeirmend]

Dale,

I gave it a few days to respond. I had to dig deep and into some uncomfortable territory within myself to muster up the balls for this, so if you find yourself somewhere similar in reading it, that should come as no surprise.

I think you've gotten a bit caught up in the "intentional fallacy." Which is to say, what you as self-conscious author intend is, at least in some sense, besides the point as to what your writing ultimately means -- particularly when you've not considered the other meanings that protrude to the eye of your reader. This is not necessarily owing to any shortcoming unique to you or any author, for that matter: it is simply very difficult, when reading our own work, to get out of the egocentric predicament. (That's not to say that you are behaving "egocentrically", per se -- just that it's impossible for you to see, beyond what you imagine you intend, what your writing means to others).

So, if you don't mind, I'm going to examine a bit of your gist below.

"To let you see Dido's pain and so forth would defeat the purpose of showing the hypocrisy of Love."

How is that so? Am I to believe, thereby, that love is essentially hypocritical? Evidently, we are talking about romantic love or eros. There is a powerful precedent in the Western tradition that allies itself with you, at least, on the surface. And yet, I wonder if hypocrisy isn't the wrong word entirely here. Hypocrisy would seem to entail a self-conscious attitude with a certain degree of transparency. However, when people are caught up in the throes of love's madness, most of them are hardly thematically aware of the extent of their own folly.

"The point is for Venus, the speaker, to be aloof and derisive, because this is what her actions in this situation suggest of her outlook, not just on Dido, but on all humans. Humanity is the plaything of Love."

And yet, if humanity is indeed the plaything of Love, what does that say, again, about love being "essentially hypocritical"? Such language seems to indicate that Dido is not entirely to blame for his predicament.

"There are some other levels operative here, but that is the gist. To make it the poem you want, would be to make it a different poem. However, your comments, along with others makes me think I need to reevaluate how I am coming across. Evidently not the way I intend."

In all honesty, I don't want your poem to be "the poem I want." I certainly do want it to be your poem; I just think that, as written, it contains a certain amount of cynicism that poses as irony, and this from some unexamined presuppositions on the part of its author. Whether such cynicism is warranted or unwarranted is another question entirely, which I will leave you to explore without further provocation.

I do hope that my remarks are useful to you, and that I put that delicately enough to not seem presumptuous.

Best,
James