Generations

[Erthona]

Version 2
We are split you see, more than generationally,
but man from man, not just son from father,
or mother from daughter; although we are peas
shelled from the same great pod,
and yet we find difference,
and blinded by arrogance judge it as a sure defense
in wanton acts of cultural and actual genocide
we think our holiness the same as God.
Still, only human feet have here trod,
grinding our kind to bone and blood,
the Profane in us as rampant as before the flood.

Though subtle, the hand of self-centeredness is truly binding,
laying our soul’s winding on it’s loom
of greed and lust and thus we know nothing but a doom
that denies any pretense to unsullied innocence.

Soon my friends our life’s payment will come due,
in your eyes I see you know this too,
as bankrupt we stand on ever shifting quicksand,
our heads in hands -salt burnt tear blinded eyes-
yet it is only at our self pity do we cry,
as we’ve not the means, or knowledge to get by,
now that we find ourselves here,
at the end of our life's year.

I hear you weakness try and justify,
"What else can we do when Armageddon comes but fly?
Does it matter how long or short the hour,
when we eventually succumb to a coward's
faint heart, whether slowly or quickly we die?”
So, will you not then stand with tightened jaw,
fist balled, and chest outthrust against the ravenous tide,
miming the false bravery displayed in life, as you die?
And does it matter as it so easily rolls you under
and forgotten, your only purpose
used dirt to form another layer of sand,
where the next great group of fools
can blindly take their stand?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are split you see,
son from father,
daughter from mother,
peas, de-shelled from the pod,
so spiritually blind we think holiness — God.

Yet, only our feet have trod upon our fellows, grinding
them to bone and blood, the profane as rampant
as before the flood: self-centeredness is truly binding,
taking our soul’s winding, laying it out upon the loom
of greedy & desirous hearts. We know nothing but a doom
that despoils any pretense of unsullied innocence.

Soon my friends the bill will come due,
I see the knowledge in your eyes,
and know, you also know this too.
Bankrupt we stand on ever shifting quicksand,
our heads in hands -salt burnt tear blinded eyes-
we’ve not the means, and lack the knowledge to get by,
and so we quietly wallow here, in depression and despair,
at the end of our life's year.

"What else can we do", I hear you cry,
"when our Armageddon comes — fly?"
Does it really matter how long or short the hour,
we eventually succumb to a coward's
faint heart, whether slowly or quickly we die?
Will you try to stand tall and firm
against the ravaging ravenous tide?
It matters not, for it easily rolls you under,
forming another layer of sand,
where the next great group of fools
can blindly take their stand?

©2012 -Erthona

[tectak]

We are split you see, all punctuation suggestions may be ignored, because I rather like all of this. However, coma after split then semi-colon line end
son from father,
daughter from mother,
peas, de-shelled from the podI would go full stop here. Think perhaps just "shelled" would work as de-shelled implies a previous shelling!
so spiritually blind we think holiness — God.without punctuation in this line there is a double meaning. Maybe your intent. Do you mean the quantative "so" or the conditional "so"? Both work.

Yet, only our feet have trod upon our fellows, grindingNow you have gone mad. Is the "yet" required? And if it is, is the comma following?
them to bone and blood, the profane as rampant
as before the flood: self-centeredness is truly binding,Next four lines are worthy. You will not win the worst poem contest with this. The sentiment is reminiscent of Tolstoy. Something out of "What men live by and other tales. You will pick up on this more than I. It has been a long time!
taking our soul’s winding, laying it out upon the loom
of greedy & desirous hearts. We know nothing but a doom
that despoils any pretense of unsullied innocence.

Soon my friends the bill will come due,Again, a comma after friends. Otherwise it could be an imminent arrival of tame policemen!
I see the knowledge in your eyes,
and know, you also know this too.Perhaps a little clumpy in a tectak sort of way. I know you know I know this, too.
Bankrupt we stand on ever shifting quicksand,next four lines would not benefit from further punctuation as this is a running thought put to print. It exists in a kind of cerebral vacuum and is the better for it.
our heads in hands -salt burnt tear blinded eyes-
we’ve not the means, and lack the knowledge to get by,
and so we quietly wallow here, in depression and despair,
at the end of our life's year.

"What else can we do", I hear you cry,
"when our Armageddon comes — fly?"Yes to the sentiment but I think there is a weakness encouraged by the sudden desire to force a rhyme. Even "Die?" instead of "fly" would make an ironic contribution. Not sure on this as there is a "die" coming
Does it really matter how long or short the hour,
we eventually succumb to a coward's
faint heart, whether slowly or quickly we die? we depart??
Will you try to stand tall and firm
against the ravaging ravenous tide?
It matters not, for it easily rolls you under, in some rooms, "It matters not " is more a cliche than a figure of speech. In this room, it matters not"
forming another layer of sand,
where the next great group of fools
can blindly take their stand? No question mark required here, there is no question

©2012 -Erthona

As I began, so I will end. I like this in a very selfish way. There are bits of it that I feel very comfortable and familiar with. The sentiment is a little global and non-specific but condensed thinking leads to clipped and trite verse.....one liners and the like. Not a great deal of editing needed, but there is something wrong in the conclusion...as if what has gone before does not lead us to such a familiar concept as the laying down of sedimentary souls. Just me, I guess.

[Erthona]

Thanks, good comments. I will look more at the punctuation, it is always unwieldy for me. Backwards into the breach!
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The last shall be first:

"The sentiment is a little global and non-specific "
Yes, but it still applies in terms of most of the human race. we are not so unique that we each need a different statement of our nature.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"as if what has gone before does not lead us to such a familiar concept as the laying down of sedimentary souls"

Logic: There are fools. They are metaphorically standing. wherefore does their ground come? In some way it must come from those who went before, as Albert said, I stand on the shoulders of giants.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No question mark required here" don't know why it is.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
""It matters not " is more a cliche than a figure of speech. In this room, it matters not""

Conversational, so a certain amount of triteness is allowed to lube the gears
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"we depart??" toooo much
--------------------------------------------------------
""Yes to the sentiment but I think there is a weakness encouraged by the sudden desire to force a rhyme. Even "Die?" instead of "fly" would make an ironic contribution. Not sure on this as there is a "die" coming"

There was a fly in the ointment first, before the other posers. Will think upon it.
----------------------------------------------------------
"I see the knowledge in your eyes,
and know, you also know this too.Perhaps a little clumpy in a tectak sort of way. I know you know I know this, too"

The speaker is saying he knows because he is one of them, so it is not said in a condemning way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"You will not win the worst poem contest with this. The sentiment is reminiscent of Tolstoy. Something out of "What men live by and other tales. You will pick up on this more than I. It has been a long time! "

It has been 40 years for me, although I read a little Chekhov recently, a review of the Cherry Orchard.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Is the "yet" required?"

Yes. To show that this is only man, and not also in conjunction with God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"without punctuation in this line there is a double meaning. Maybe your intent. Do you mean the quantative "so" or the conditional "so"? Both work."

The "so" modifies "blind", as in excessively. So I guess I mean qualitatively so So no to both!
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Think perhaps just "shelled" would work as de-shelled implies a previous shelling!"

No by this point we are twice shelled. Once at birth, and once in isolation from each other.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I will consider what you have written, especially the "it matters not' which was done somewhat unthinkingly. Of course I may not have a better option. What I was trying to imply is "Oh well, it doesn't really matter one way or the other, as you end up in the same spot." It's a cynical invalidation of any type of integrity, or honor. As, in the end we are all just sediment and it doesn't matter how you lived, whether a murder or a humanitarian, it's all one in the same.

Anyway, thanks for the read. I always enjoy your comments.

Dale

[Philatone]

hello, dale.
before beginning, I want to say I like the rhythm and rhymes you've included in the piece. having said that

We are split you see,
son from father,
daughter from mother,
peas, de-shelled from the pod,
so spiritually blind we think holiness — God....ok, but nothing really fresh to grab onto here

Yet, only our feet have trod upon our fellows, grinding
them to bone and blood, the profane as rampant
as before the flood: self-centeredness is truly binding,
taking our soul’s winding, laying it out upon the loom
of greedy & desirous hearts. We know nothing but a doom
that despoils any pretense of unsullied innocence....abstractions everywhere. I had little to hold. The references to the Bible I liked, but I struggle with the rest. "Soul", "innocence", and "doom" did little to help me.

Soon my friends the bill will come due,...the "due" felt a bit extra. It's meaning is the same as "the bill will come"
I see the knowledge in your eyes,
and know, you also know this too. ...bit of a clunky two lines; the commas try to clear it up, but aren't really necessary in terms of grammar.
Bankrupt we stand on ever shifting quicksand,
our heads in hands -salt burnt tear blinded eyes-
we’ve not the means, and lack the knowledge to get by,
and so we quietly wallow here, in depression and despair,
at the end of our life's year. ..pretty dramatic

"What else can we do", I hear you cry,
"when our Armageddon comes — fly?" ...for me, the speech came off a little forced, especially with the dash and "fly" part
Does it really matter how long or short the hour,
we eventually succumb to a coward's
faint heart, whether slowly or quickly we die?
Will you try to stand tall and firm
against the ravaging ravenous tide?...."ravaging ravenous" was bit too much for me
It matters not, for it easily rolls you under,
forming another layer of sand,
where the next great group of fools
can blindly take their stand?...like the cyclical nature/ return to the earlier stanzas with this close

©2012 -Erthona

it was a bit abstract and exaggerated for me, which biases a lot of my comments; if they go against your own perceptions and intentions, I understand. just wanted to let you know

[addy]

A serviceable piece, i thought. At some points I felt it really building up to something a lot more daring, but majority of it covers well-trodden ground. Just my take

We are split you see,
son from father,
daughter from mother,
peas, de-shelled from the pod,
so spiritually blind we think holiness — God.

Yet, only our feet have trod upon our fellows, grinding
them to bone and blood, the profane as rampant
as before the flood: self-centeredness is truly binding,
taking our soul’s winding, laying it out upon the loom
of greedy & desirous hearts. We know nothing but a doom
that despoils any pretense of unsullied innocence. For me this part was a combination of strong and weak elements. "Self-centeredness is truly binding" sounds flat, and from the line "We know nothing but a doom..." it just sounds like you're running out of steam.

Soon my friends the bill will come due,
I see the knowledge in your eyes,
and know, you also know this too.
Bankrupt we stand on ever shifting quicksand,
our heads in hands -salt burnt tear blinded eyes-
we’ve not the means, and lack the knowledge to get by,
and so we quietly wallow here, in depression and despair, This part's over the top
at the end of our life's year.

"What else can we do", I hear you cry,
"when our Armageddon comes — fly?"
Does it really matter how long or short the hour,
we eventually succumb to a coward's
faint heart, whether slowly or quickly we die?
Will you try to stand tall and firm
against the ravaging ravenous tide?
It matters not, for it easily rolls you under,
forming another layer of sand,
where the next great group of fools
can blindly take their stand? I don't think this should end with a question mark. (That's if I'm reading it correctly)

©2012 -Erthona

[Erthona]

Addy and Geoff,

Thanks for your comments. Most of what you didn't like were things that were not there in the original, and were added as a way of explanation when this was looked over before. " ravaging ravenous" is very ugly.

No, it should not end with a question mark, I have no idea how that got there.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"ok, but nothing really fresh to grab onto here"

Geoff, I'm not sure what your comment means.
The first stanza is basically defining a starting point for the discussion that follows, the last line of which is simply a qualifier. Do you think it adds nothing to the rest, or do you mean the stanza is nothing new?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...for me, the speech came off a little forced, especially with the dash and "fly" part

suggestions?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Addy

" For me this part was a combination of strong and weak elements. "Self-centeredness is truly binding" sounds flat, and from the line "We know nothing but a doom..." it just sounds like you're running out of steam."

I think it is more a problem of the word choice slowing down the pace, as when it hits "greedy & desirous". That just seems to hit the mouth like peanut butter.

So do you think it is a matter of pacing, or I am just being repetitive?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bankrupt we stand on ever shifting quicksand,
our heads in hands -salt burnt tear blinded eyes-
we’ve not the means, and lack the knowledge to get by,
and so we quietly wallow here, in depression and despair, This part's over the top
at the end of our life's year."

Are you referring to just that line?

What do you think of this?

"we’ve not the means, and lack
the knowledge to get by,
here at the end of our life's year.""

Thanks for the comments guys.As I said this one is a bit of a struggle, so any further comments regarding specifics would be welcome.

Dale

[addy]

--
Addy

" For me this part was a combination of strong and weak elements. "Self-centeredness is truly binding" sounds flat, and from the line "We know nothing but a doom..." it just sounds like you're running out of steam."

I think it is more a problem of the word choice slowing down the pace, as when it hits "greedy & desirous". That just seems to hit the mouth like peanut butter.

So do you think it is a matter of pacing, or I am just being repetitive?

I don’t think it’s just the stretched pace of the words. The slowing at “greedy & desirous” gave it a nice cadence that I actually liked. It’s simply that the last line of the stanza is expressing a thought without much effort to craft it it into the narrative or tie it down with anything.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bankrupt we stand on ever shifting quicksand,
our heads in hands -salt burnt tear blinded eyes-
we’ve not the means, and lack the knowledge to get by,
and so we quietly wallow here, in depression and despair, This part's over the top
at the end of our life's year."

Are you referring to just that line?

What do you think of this?

"we’ve not the means, and lack
the knowledge to get by,
here at the end of our life's year.""

Yep, just that line. I find it better without

[Erthona]

Thanks. I'll look at that.

Dale

[Philatone]

hey dale

i wasn't arguing that the stanza had nothing to contribute, but only that it's expressions feel overdone. I've heard it before, and I think you have as well. for an opening, I would prefer something with a stronger, more innovative impact.

with regards to the quote
perhaps inverting the first line (adjusting words as needed) so that the quote is not separated by a break and is instead together in its entirety? The dash also killed some of the momentum for me, and leads to a single word that pretty much feels forced when rhymed with the line above it. Weaving the end word into the phrase, or perhaps extending the quote another line, could keep the momentum churning. just some ideas

[Erthona]

I've done a re-write and tried to incorporate some of the suggestions where I could, and create greater clarity on points that seemed misleading. Nor sure what I think of it.

Dale

[billy]

another one i missed, catch ups a bitch

Version 2
We are split you see, more than generationally,
but man from man, not just son from father,
or mother from daughter; although we are peas
shelled from the same great pod,
and yet we find difference,
and blinded by arrogance judge it as a sure defense
in wanton acts of cultural and actual genocide
we think our holiness the same as God.
Still, only human feet have here trod,
grinding our kind to bone and blood,
the Profane in us as rampant as before the flood.

i read the original a few times to get a feel of the changes. this 1st verse is way better it has a lot more boot in it. if i had a small nit it would be the 2nd 'and' in a row before blinded, the comma i feel does a well enough job so that it can be eliminated.

Though subtle, the hand of self-centeredness is truly binding,
laying our soul’s winding on it’s loom
of greed and lust and thus we know nothing but a doom
that denies any pretense to unsullied innocence.
a bit wordy but fits well with the above and so works well as a filler verse

Soon my friends our life’s payment will come due, 'our' feels redundant
in your eyes I see you know this too,
as bankrupt we stand on ever shifting quicksand, quicksand feels too similar to stand even though there are some internals at work.
our heads in hands -salt burnt tear blinded eyes-
yet it is only at our self pity do we cry,
as we’ve not the means, or knowledge to get by,
now that we find ourselves here,
at the end of our life's year. feels a bit too contrived.

I hear you weakness try and justify, something feels syntactically wrong, maybe a comma after weakness would help
"What else can we do when Armageddon comes but fly?
Does it matter how long or short the hour,
when we eventually succumb to a coward's
faint heart, whether slowly or quickly we die?”
So, will you not then stand with tightened jaw,
fist balled, and chest outthrust against the ravenous tide,
miming the false bravery displayed in life, as you die?
And does it matter as it so easily rolls you under
and forgotten, your only purpose
used dirt to form another layer of sand,
where the next great group of fools
can blindly take their stand?

i think the last verse is too over bearing. maybe more Shakespeare than Shakespeare

©2012 -Erthona

i thought the improvements were great. the style isn't one of my favourites but that has nothing to do really with the crafting of the thing which i think is well done. the opening verse really sets the piece up and i think that was the main stumbling block in the original. it started out very weak.

i think it can still go another edit but that said i see it as a good piece of poetry already.

thanks for the read.

[addy]

Agree, i like how the beginning shaped up in this edit . Any comments below are very minor and just a matter of taste

Version 2
We are split you see, more than generationally,
but man from man, not just son from father, For me it reads better as "Not just son from father// mother from daughter, but man from man," but that's just imo
or mother from daughter; although we are peas
shelled from the same great pod,
and yet we find difference,
and blinded by Just a tiny nit; maybe "blinded by" isn't necessary, just "and with arrogance..." could work. Only because finding (difference) and being blinded contradict as actions arrogance judge it as a sure defense
in wanton acts of cultural and actual genocide
we think our holiness the same as God.
Still, only human feet have here trod, How about "Though" instead of "still"?
grinding our kind to bone and blood,
the Profane in us as rampant as before the flood.

Though subtle, the hand of self-centeredness Still think this word is unwieldy, but overall it works is truly binding,
laying our soul’s winding on it’s loom
of greed and lust and thus we know nothing but a doom
that denies any pretense to unsullied innocence.

Soon my friends our life’s payment will come due,
in your eyes I see you know this too,
as bankrupt we stand on ever shifting quicksand,
our heads in hands -salt burnt tear blinded eyes-
yet it is only at our self pity do we cry,
as we’ve not the means, or knowledge to get by,
now that we find ourselves here, Hmm... now that I reread it this line seems almost unnecessary, as you already established we are currently standing "on ever shifting quicksand". But maybe I'm just reading it wrong
at the end of our life's year.

I hear you weakness try and justify, Don't understand this line??
"What else can we do when Armageddon comes but fly?
Does it matter how long or short the hour,
when we eventually succumb to a coward's
faint heart, whether slowly or quickly we die?”
So, will you not then stand with tightened jaw,
fist balled, and chest outthrust against the ravenous tide, I love how this is building up
miming the false bravery displayed in life, as you die?
And does it matter as it so easily rolls you under
and forgotten, your only purpose
used dirt to form another layer of sand, Something about the syntax of these past three lines confused me a little
where the next great group of fools
can blindly take their stand?


©2012 -Erthona

[Erthona]

Thanks guys. A bit rushed for time, but I will look your suggestions over.

That line should be "I hear you try, your weakness justify"

[billy]

that sounds worse to me,

i thought a simple comma could have worked better.

I hear you weakness, try and justify.

though that's just a suggestion. ( we say "just a suggestion" or an 'idea" but what we really mean is ""do as you're fucking told") Hysterical: seriously Dale, it's just a suggestion

[Philatone]

hey dale

looking at the first and last stanza, specifically

Version 2
We are split you see, more than generationally,
but man from man, not just son from father,...again, "generationally" does cover your bases, so the "son...father...daughter...mother may not be needed
or mother from daughter; although we are peas
shelled from the same great pod,...peas in a pod is still cliche
and yet we find difference,
and blinded by arrogance judge it as a sure defense
in wanton acts of cultural and actual genocide
we think our holiness the same as God....this is heavily abstract so far. a part of me wants something to grab onto
Still, only human feet have here trod,
grinding our kind to bone and blood,
the Profane in us as rampant as before the flood. ..I like the flood image

Though subtle, the hand of self-centeredness is truly binding,
laying our soul’s winding on it’s loom
of greed and lust and thus we know nothing but a doom
that denies any pretense to unsullied innocence.

Soon my friends our life’s payment will come due,
in your eyes I see you know this too,
as bankrupt we stand on ever shifting quicksand,
our heads in hands -salt burnt tear blinded eyes-
yet it is only at our self pity do we cry,
as we’ve not the means, or knowledge to get by,
now that we find ourselves here,
at the end of our life's year.

I hear you weakness try and justify, ..."your"?
"What else can we do when Armageddon comes but fly?...get the idea, but its length and complexity do it few favors
Does it matter how long or short the hour,
when we eventually succumb to a coward's
faint heart, whether slowly or quickly we die?” ...lot of question words and clauses going on (does...how....when....whether)
So, will you not then stand with tightened jaw,
fist balled, and chest outthrust against the ravenous tide,...."ravenous" is better
miming the false bravery displayed in life, as you die?...what false bravery? I feel assumptions and generalizations being made without explanation or demonstrations[
And does it matter as it so easily rolls you under
and forgotten, your only purpose
used dirt to form another layer of sand,....feels like a verb or something is missing before "used," or maybe it's the tense of the verb
where the next great group of fools
can blindly take their stand?

[Erthona]

Geoff, Thanks.

Some quick answers


------------------------------------------------
"...peas in a pod is still cliche"
That's true and not true. It is a cliche, but it is usually applied in a different way.
------------------------------------------
should be you're
------------------------------------------------
"...what false bravery?"

will you not then stand with tightened jaw,
fist balled, and chest outthrust
-----------------------------------------
"...feels like a verb or something is missing before "used," or maybe it's the tense of the verb"

Punctuation is problematic here, it is missing a colon:

your only purpose: used dirt to form another layer of sand,
------------------------------------------------
...lot of question words and clauses going on (does...how....when....whether)

Punctuation again probably

Does it matter how long or short the hour, when we eventually succumb to a coward's faint heart, whether slowly or quickly we die?”

It is asking whether it matters how long it takes for them to act as cowards in the face of approaching death, or does it matter how long it takes them to die, whether slowly or quickly. The implication being that it does not matter.
-----------------------------------------------

Dale

---

I know Billy.

[penguin]

It seems a bit too Voice of the Prophet to me in a few places but I quite like it all the same.
These lines could be reformulated, perhaps

Still, only human feet have here trod
I hear you weakness try and justify

As they are I find them archaic, forced

in wanton acts of cultural and actual genocide
we think our holiness the same as God

Tells too much, I think. Maybe

in wanton acts of genocide,
God-like in our righteous wrath

the hand of self-centredness - a little wordy?
the self-centred hand?

your only purpose
used dirt to form another layer of sand

I see what you're saying here and I like the idea. I think it could be better put - something like "your only purpose to be dirt and form another...."

I'm not quite sure what your point is in the first 8 lines of that last verse. That we should all "man up"? I did like the last 5 lines, reminded me of the Larkin poem.

[Erthona]

Penguin,

"I'm not quite sure what your point is in the first 8 lines of that last verse. That we should all "man up"? " (answer in this follow long paragraph)

Guilty of Prophet Voice, but it is difficult not to go there when condemning all of mankind. I could have been less general and more specific, but the idea is that these sorts of character traits are an inherent part f the human condition, and while we may fight them, we can never be fully free of self-centeredness, fear, resentment, and so on. So that sets the last part up as being sarcasm. Basically making fun of the idea that it is so important if you shit your pants or not when a gun is pulled on you. That sort of bravado, or false self esteem is just posturing. There is also an acknowledgment of a sort of fatalism, in that we all die, we all are washed under, no matter how great or insignificant our lives were, death is the great equalizer (not that brings any comfort). This is, at least on the most superficial level a repudiation of the Hemingway idea that to overcome "fear" one must face death down, as though fear were not a ongoing and pervasive element of life that could be dealt with one and never bother us again. Having lived through a few of those Hemingway-esque type of events, I can state that they do not rid one of any fear, or even fear of death. They may make you appreciate life more, but in many ways, such events tend to intensify fears hold on a person, not lessen it.

Thanks for your comments. Yes to "in wanton acts of cultural and actual genocide
we think our holiness the same as God " I do need something better there. I agree with the next one, but "righteous wrath" is not what I am talking about. But yea, the wording is awkward.
------------------------------------------------------------
the hand of self-centredness - a little wordy?

Yes, probably, but I am personifying Self-centeredness, so it is Self-centered's hand, not a "self-centred hand", I think that is a legitimate distinction.
------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks again,

Dale