v2.0 (completing the image, for now, more adult stuff later, reworked)

"Motionless"

Still, lying sprawled across the bed, she acts asleep
Youthful white leg wide open to the left, as in death or doll
The feminine body compliant to all manner of pushing, positioning,


Thrusting,
That he will do.
Frenzied, overjoyed with his toy every time
New position, new novelty. Such a faithful pet


Exhales shakily through innate animal urges,
At the peaks of muscle use,
Desperate to fulfill himself
Thighs failing, overcome this time somehow
As she'd called him 'brother'


Their understanding is logical, convenient
A particular social anomaly, valuable for him,
Only possible when all is communicated
It's all the more beautiful because.


Others in the world
Not part of this beauty, blind to such sacrifice
Of individuality itself, pushing the self into servitude
For this is the only way to exist
So motionless and of any human contempt, free

(end)


v1.0 Original

Still, lying still
The feminine body obedient to any pushing, lifting,

Thrusting,
That he will do.


"Great.. that was great"
Amazing, novel but erotically exciting
This sick perversion, 'fetish' behaviour
That he will get all the girls to do.


A motionless body is innocent,
Primal rage psychology tells us.
Purity at any cost,
More fuel for the sexually instinctual fire,
Never satiated.


Shocked, you shouldn't be
This is the ideal in Japan.
You need only look, for something to blame,
At your own negligence to be
So motionless and of contempt, free

(end)

I know I need to refine that first 4 line verse, it's first draft
I also need to really pinpoint why the feminine image being abused is so wrong. It's not substantial enough (portraying a theme or view)

And I really haven't edited the last verse either yet but I want to really convey this helplessness of being human = being held in contempt, undoubtedly, by someone.

All criticism welcomed & appreciated

The more personal, the more impact. Try "her" instead of "The feminine body" et al.

However, if you want to convey " helplessness" it will need to be 1st person victim point of view. Why you feel the need... however, no depth can be achieved from the perspective of the perpetrator as that view is purely objectified and generally lacking in emotional content. However, unless you have a personal reason for exploring this type of material, I would choose a different subject and table this for later exploration when you have exhausted other possibilities. The idea of helplessness can be explored elsewhere without trying to handle the ancillary aspects of this particular subject.

As to form. The syntactical switch in the last stanza seems a tad over the top, and I think you are leaning a bit heavily on the rhyme to pull together the verse that generally reads as a bit stilted. I would look at adding a bit more cadence overall.



Dale

Thanks

(04-13-2012, 05:48 AM)Erthona Wrote:  The more personal, the more impact. Try "her" instead of "The feminine body" et al.

The image I want is a female body sprawled motionless across a bed, I could use those words, making it personal detracts from what I want to do: shock the reader with the calm objectifying, do you know if this would still work?

(04-13-2012, 05:48 AM)Erthona Wrote:  if you want to convey " helplessness"

I don't want to convey helplessness of anyone in particular, just, helplessness of being human (and this might be a huge mistake to have made because I started out with the above notion and worked this one into the last part, yeah)

(04-13-2012, 05:48 AM)Erthona Wrote:  Why you feel the need...

Don't know what you mean by this

(04-13-2012, 05:48 AM)Erthona Wrote:  however, no depth can be achieved from the perspective of the perpetrator as that view is purely objectified and generally lacking in emotional content. However, unless you have a personal reason for exploring this type of material, I would choose a different subject and table this for later exploration when you have exhausted other possibilities. The idea of helplessness can be explored elsewhere without trying to handle the ancillary aspects of this particular subject.

*Should* I be trying to build depth in these people? Will that help with this kind of material?

Okay, I will try another subject, but I don't think it can be so powerful as when using these particular images, I wrote about this because it was easy

(04-13-2012, 05:48 AM)Erthona Wrote:  As to form. The syntactical switch in the last stanza seems a tad over the top, and I think you are leaning a bit heavily on the rhyme to pull together the verse that generally reads as a bit stilted. I would look at adding a bit more cadence overall.

It feels over the top? I thought it was effective, particularly as the last word is 'free'? I wasn't consciously trying to rhyme but maybe it's taking from the effect of the last line..

Can you point me to some good examples for poems with a lot of cadence?

I know the last verse is very different

Are you saying the last couple of lines are artificially formal somehow?

Hi Chaotic Body welcome to the site. Here are some comments for you.

Playing off of Dale's earlier point, the point of view you choose for a poem (or any bit of writing for that matter) opens up certain opportunities: to show helplessness in any way that has emotional impact you have to come at it from the victim's perspective. If you focus on the perp you can show how they are the hero in their own mind and how it's all justified somehow.

It's also hard to make unconsciousness helplessness interesting. There's nothing at stake for the woman. She may as well be a corpse. If you abuse her in front of her tied up child (for example) though well you raise the stakes. There has to be someone struggling to stop it all for there to be any intensity.

It's also very hard to compete with visual media. A picture or a film will always trump a graphic written display. The way a poem can trump film is by what it implies but doesn't show us. You need more implication and less display. The slasher advancing slowly and the car that won't turn over are always more scary than the actual killing.

Just a few thoughts,

Todd

(04-13-2012, 04:45 AM)Chaotic Body Wrote:  Still, lying still
The feminine body obedient to any pushing, lifting,

Thrusting,
That he will do.


"Great.. that was great"
Amazing, novel but erotically exciting
This sick perversion, 'fetish' behaviour
That he will get all the girls to do.


A motionless body is innocent,
Primal rage psychology tells us.
Purity at any cost,
More fuel for the sexually instinctual fire,
Never satiated.


Shocked, you shouldn't be
This is the ideal in Japan.
You need only look, for something to blame,
At your own negligence to be
So motionless and of contempt, free

(end)

I know I need to refine that first 4 line verse, it's first draft
I also need to really pinpoint why the feminine image being abused is so wrong. It's not substantial enough (portraying a theme or view)

And I really haven't edited the last verse either yet but I want to really convey this helplessness of being human = being held in contempt, undoubtedly, by someone.

All criticism welcomed & appreciated

Obviously you have something in your head, but it does not say more than a man and woman are having sex, with a 'sick perversion' thrown in. If you mean rape, you should be clearer; after all, verses three and four spell out for us what we should think. But take no notice of me: I am a rotten critic, and tired.And I am a bit of prude. I should have skipped it.

Welcome to the Pig!

(04-13-2012, 07:09 AM)Todd Wrote:  It's also hard to make unconsciousness helplessness interesting. There's nothing at stake for the woman. She may as well be a corpse. If you abuse her in front of her tied up child (for example) though well you raise the stakes. There has to be someone struggling to stop it all for there to be any intensity.

She's awake but not moving, fully consensual, I should add that.. I had no intention of portraying rape and definitely the perversion of traditional consensual sex (note: physical movement) is really what is supposed to drive the shock to the reader more than any kind of rape. I could add prostitution, definitely more substance as to why such a situation came about would be better..?

(04-13-2012, 07:09 AM)Todd Wrote:  It's also very hard to compete with visual media. A picture or a film will always trump a graphic written display. The way a poem can trump film is by what it implies but doesn't show us. You need more implication and less display. The slasher advancing slowly and the car that won't turn over are always more scary than the actual killing.

Yeah I definitely understand this

(04-13-2012, 09:46 AM)abu nuwas Wrote:  Obviously you have something in your head, but it does not say more than a man and woman are having sex, with a 'sick perversion' thrown in. If you mean rape, you should be clearer; after all, verses three and four spell out for us what we should think. But take no notice of me: I am a rotten critic, and tired.And I am a bit of prude. I should have skipped it.

Welcome to the Pig!

Thanks, particularly that I had lead what to think, I didn't notice that!

That's what I was thinking, that I don't really say enough to convey what I'm imagining, but I'm pretty certain this particular sexual fetish is very taboo.. something about the non-physical-participation resembling rape, which it isn't in this case

But, prostitution caused by poverty, isn't so far from rape?
I should add that detail into the story but it's form over substance, I need a clear thing to convey.. I guess I didn't pick a good enough message to start with

But I am still really pleased with the outcome, the last verse in particular and how I twisted it but it's relevant (at least in my imagination)

hello chaotic! i hope this finds you well
some thoughts

(04-13-2012, 04:45 AM)Chaotic Body Wrote:  Still, lying still ..considered dropping the second "still"
The feminine body obedient to any pushing, lifting, ...I would delete "lifting" to add more of a comparison to "thrusting"

Thrusting,
That he will do....i like this line, and how it's separated. gives a sense of finality, but also conveys the future and possibility


"Great.. that was great"
Amazing, novel but erotically exciting
This sick perversion, 'fetish' behaviour
That he will get all the girls to do. ...hmm. I think these emotional descriptions take away from what preceded it. removing it would let the reader alone with what to think


A motionless body is innocent,
Primal rage psychology tells us.
Purity at any cost,
More fuel for the sexually instinctual fire,
Never satiated....i felt like the speaker was directing me with the tone. heavy on description, but not much for imagination


Shocked, you shouldn't be
This is the ideal in Japan.
You need only look, for something to blame,
At your own negligence to be
So motionless and of contempt, free ...similar sentiments to the stanza above

(end)

I know I need to refine that first 4 line verse, it's first draft
I also need to really pinpoint why the feminine image being abused is so wrong. It's not substantial enough (portraying a theme or view)

And I really haven't edited the last verse either yet but I want to really convey this helplessness of being human = being held in contempt, undoubtedly, by someone.

All criticism welcomed & appreciated

again, sticking to the action would help leave the reader with a stronger impact. it seems by your description that you're interested in an emotional goal ("I also need to really pinpoint why the feminine image being abused is so wrong." "I want to really convey this helplessness of being human"). I think that by instead keeping the object of the speaker (the girl) less human and appear more like material, it will appear more twisted than by simply stating "this is awful". readers will see this actions and draw their own conclusions, which will always be stronger than informing them of how to feel.

I hope this can be helpful. to summarize, I think the opening has promise that slowly trickles away as the poem progresses.
i'll be waiting for an edit; it's an important topic and it has a lot of potential

I believe the taboo this comes closest to is not exactly rape, but necrophilia? At least that's how I read it. As was already pointed out, there's definitely an element of hyper-objectification, and your POV and the way you wrote it suggests a rather cerebral approach to the subject rather than an emotional one. Not to say that cerebral can't be visceral if done right, and I think there is definitely room to make the action more visceral than it is at the moment.

One way I could think of is to make it a first person POV (of the agressor), and then screw it up a little more by casting the audience in the "passive body" role, deliberately reducing them. It automatically highlights why the extreme passiveness of the female image should be disconcerting (as you said you wished to portray).... Of course, writing it like that might be way uncomfortable for you, so it's just one suggestion

if you want an untainted view of what we think, don't tell us too much about it in the footnotes. (and that title thing again )

(04-13-2012, 04:45 AM)Chaotic Body Wrote:  Still, lying still
The feminine body obedient to any pushing, lifting,

Thrusting,
That he will do.


"Great.. that was great"
Amazing, novel but erotically exciting
This sick perversion, 'fetish' behaviour
That he will get all the girls to do.


A motionless body is innocent,
Primal rage psychology tells us.
Purity at any cost,
More fuel for the sexually instinctual fire,
Never satiated. if you make a statement make a powerful one


Shocked, you shouldn't be
This is the ideal in Japan.
You need only look, for something to blame,
At your own negligence to be
So motionless and of contempt, free

(end)

I know I need to refine that first 4 line verse, it's first draft
I also need to really pinpoint why the feminine image being abused is so wrong. It's not substantial enough (portraying a theme or view)

And I really haven't edited the last verse either yet but I want to really convey this helplessness of being human = being held in contempt, undoubtedly, by someone.

All criticism welcomed & appreciated

make it your POV be the baddie or be the goody be a bystander. show us how such a thing makes you feel. push the envelope by all means. use imagery in the narration as well as other things. add depth to it. give some markers to the reader. if the poem is supposed to have adult content, give it some. make it gritty and dirty.
thanks for the read

" fully consensual,"

If it is fully consensual, then there is no helplessness or really much of the perverse. It becomes perverse when it is a dead body he is having sex with, because of our objections about "fucking" with the dead.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Can you point me to some good examples for poems with a lot of cadence?"

Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass"".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's also very hard to compete with visual media. A picture or a film will always trump a graphic written display."

Yeah, Todd put it succinctly here, and why it probably won't work.. This seems very much what you seem to be attempting, I could not put my finger on it before.

Dale

(04-13-2012, 05:29 PM)billy Wrote:  make it your POV be the baddie or be the goody be a bystander. show us how such a thing makes you feel. push the envelope by all means. use imagery in the narration as well as other things. add depth to it. give some markers to the reader. if the poem is supposed to have adult content, give it some. make it gritty and dirty.
thanks for the read

Wow that's some really great advice, much needed too.

(04-13-2012, 05:16 PM)addy Wrote:  Not to say that cerebral can't be visceral if done right, and I think there is definitely room to make the action more visceral than it is at the moment.

One way I could think of is to make it a first person POV (of the agressor), and then screw it up a little more by casting the audience in the "passive body" role, deliberately reducing them.

I actually thought of this and I've done that a little in my first revision now, but I have no idea how to pull off exactly what you mean! Feel free to show me using this writing, but I won't be able to without some good examples

(04-13-2012, 01:27 PM)Philatone Wrote:  readers will see this actions and draw their own conclusions, which will always be stronger than informing them of how to feel.

I hope this can be helpful. to summarize, I think the opening has promise that slowly trickles away as the poem progresses.
i'll be waiting for an edit; it's an important topic and it has a lot of potential

Thanks for that analysis

In particular that I was completely leading the thought process, I had no idea haha


I was trying to mix in too many different ideas. I'm not even sure if I have enough space to justify this story I created and tie it to the ending stanza and even if I do, I'm now worried it's an unnatural twist away from something that's supposed to be, chiefly, descriptive!!

(04-13-2012, 04:45 AM)Chaotic Body Wrote:  v2.0 (completing the image, for now, more adult stuff later, reworked)

"Motionless"

Still, lying sprawled across the bed, she acts asleep
Youthful white leg wide open to the left, as in death or doll
The feminine body compliant to all manner of pushing, positioning,


Thrusting,
That he will do.
Frenzied, overjoyed with his toy every time
New position, new novelty. Such a faithful pet


Exhales shakily through innate animal urges,
At the peaks of muscle use,
Desperate to fulfill himself
Thighs failing, overcome this time somehow
As she'd called him 'brother'


Their understanding is logical, convenient
A particular social anomaly, valuable for him,
Only possible when all is communicated
It's all the more beautiful because.


Others in the world
Not part of this beauty, blind to such sacrifice
Of individuality itself, pushing the self into servitude
For this is the only way to exist
So motionless and of any human contempt, free

(end)


v1.0 Original

Still, lying still
The feminine body obedient to any pushing, lifting,

Thrusting,
That he will do.


"Great.. that was great"
Amazing, novel but erotically exciting
This sick perversion, 'fetish' behaviour
That he will get all the girls to do.


A motionless body is innocent,
Primal rage psychology tells us.
Purity at any cost,
More fuel for the sexually instinctual fire,
Never satiated.


Shocked, you shouldn't be
This is the ideal in Japan.
You need only look, for something to blame,
At your own negligence to be
So motionless and of contempt, free

(end)

I know I need to refine that first 4 line verse, it's first draft
I also need to really pinpoint why the feminine image being abused is so wrong. It's not substantial enough (portraying a theme or view)

And I really haven't edited the last verse either yet but I want to really convey this helplessness of being human = being held in contempt, undoubtedly, by someone.

All criticism welcomed & appreciated

I come to this cold and would prefer , as always, to comment on the structure and thence effectiveness in what the piece is saying to me. After the first read I felt that it was a complete non-event in that the story was so old and worn out as to be verging on tedious. Having read your ethos, perhaps too strong a word, I am convinced that you believe that this is a "new" subject. I note todd's comments and have to agree. The pornographic implications in this are a little less than the illustrated Kama Sutra would bring to youporn and so you begin with a disadvantage. I sympathise with what you say you are trying to say but do not believe you. In order to "shock" the reader in this ocean you need to push the boat out into very deep waters. This you have not done.
Now, as this piece relies almost totally on content over context there is little else to add without becoming over critical.......which I hope I never am.
I would very much like to see some other work before I commit the greatest sin of all and categorise you on a single effort.
In truth, there are some observational highs in this piece but the translation into the written word falls short almost everytime. This is like a good singer singing the wrong song.......then when asked it turns out to be a self composition
Just for the record......I guess we've all been there. Don't hang about. Move on.
Best,
Tectak

(04-15-2012, 06:42 PM)tectak Wrote:  there are some observational highs in this piece but the translation into the written word falls short almost everytime. This is like a good singer singing the wrong song.......then when asked it turns out to be a self composition

Yeah I did question this myself the other day:

-If I write about flowers it's all good, powerful
-If I try to describe sex or anything hugely niche like this is to me, it's not powerful. Writing relies on existing associations to pull off -anything-

Good stories are effective because they tap into the rich understanding we have of those meanings.

So, yeah, I'm fooling myself by not respecting the fundamentals here.