If that's your crusade, I wish you well

I will warn you though, there's a big difference between "meaningless" and "abstract".

Thank you Leanne, I am sure the differences will be resolved

7 & 8

Thinking no one understands your brilliance and thinking it is the readers fault they the just don't get it.

dale

(04-05-2013, 05:32 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Meaningless Poetry

Dark and clear,
Changing,
The world is orange--
I pray for the rabbits
In the meadow.

Hey that's a great poem all it needs is the right title and a light massage.....


 Hunger at Dawn/ Two Rounds Left

From dark to clear
changing
now the world is orange
I pray for rabbits
In the meadow.

D.

^ it works.

(06-07-2016, 11:26 AM)Pdeathstar Wrote:  ^ it works.

Ah so you are the young sniper who inspired this poem.

I am relieved that you were nourished.

D.

Really useful tips!
I have just been educated on so many novice errors that I have been making.
Thank you for posting, I look forward to reading more of your insights.

(07-22-2016, 03:19 PM)Gabriel.k.Jones Wrote:  Really useful tips!
I have just been educated on so many novice errors that I have been making.  
Thank you for posting, I look forward to reading more of your insights.

Welcome to the Pen. I don't know if it's been mentioned on this thread but there's an amusing and informative link on our home page to Colin Ward's Poetry Tips, a fun read. I hope you enjoy the site.

I admit that sometimes i force my rhyming to the point that it sounds meaningless, but i learned from those mistakes. Revising is a virtue

(04-05-2013, 05:32 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Some very useful advice -- we've probably said it all before but there's always someone who's missed it and reading this might save you some embarrassment.

Quote:Five Common Mistakes That Novice Poets Make
by Juniper Russo
Poets who are new to the world of writing often repeat each other's mistakes. There are five basic "types" of mistakes when it comes to novice poetry, but they can be avoided easily, if you simply enable yourself to detect these mistakes before you make them. This guide can help to remind you to keep on track and put you a few steps ahead of the competition.
Forced Rhyming Poetry
In the woods, there was a tree.
It numbered one, not two or three.
One of the most common mistakes made by beginner poets, strained rhymes sound awful and are ineffective. The above snip of poetry has redundant--"a tree" already makes it clear that the poem is talking about one single tree. It is noticeable that the poet was simply stressing for a rhyming word to fill the second line.
Stop writing and take a break if you find yourself ever going through a list of rhyming words to see what fits, along the lines of, "Let's see, what rhymes with 'cat'? Hat, that, at, bat, mat--okay, I'll find a way to say something about a door mat!"
If you're determined to write rhyming poetry, wait until a rhyme comes naturally. It looks foolish to force a rhyme when one is not coming easily.
Meaningless Poetry

Dark and clear,
Changing,
The world is orange--
I pray for the rabbits
In the meadow.
Novice poetry is often full of unrelated images and incoherent thoughts. These feeble attempts at surrealism do little-to-nothing to get any kind of informative message across to the reader. While many of the poets who write in this form will defend that their poetry "means whatever you want it to mean", I believe that this is a cop-out from someone unable to write poetry of genuine, significant meaning.
While there is nothing wrong with surrealism, it must be used very carefully and lead to an essential theme or logic. Random strings of unrelated words and thoughts don't read as poetry; they read as nonsense. Poetry should be clear and concise--no reader wants to wade through impenetrable fog.
Woe-is-Me Poetry
I hate my life
My heart has been raped
I want to die
Alone, cold, and afraid.
While it is true that some of the best poetry is written in times of deep despair, a poem's purpose is to shed light on a topic or introduce the reader to a new way of thinking, so it has to be about something more than just feeling sad. Writing about how pitiful your life is will accomplish little to entertain or educate the reader.
It may seem unfair, but no reader really cares that your girlfriend dumped you or that your goldfish died. Crying it out on paper might help to console you, but it will do little to bring you respect or publicity as a writer. Despair has been around since the dawn of humanity, and there are only so many ways to re-word "I am sad."
Ye Olde Language Poetry
Thine argent eyes toucheth my heart
Whilst, yonder, the golden sun doth set.
If a word hasn't been used in common language in three hundred years or more, don't use it. Utilizing outdated words and language patterns does not make you appear educated; it makes you appear stuffy.
Beyond simply sounding outdated, Shakespearean English is very easy for modern poets and writers to misuse. While the mistakes may not be immediately obvious to the reader or poet, they still sound awkward.
Modern English is ever-evolving, but it is complete. Borrowing a word or two that sounds outdated might be useful. Composing an entire poem this way sounds overbearing.
Empty Love-Inspired Poetry
You are prettier than flowers
I could stare at you for hours.
You are sweeter than honey,
And I find your jokes funny.

Not only does the above poetry contain the dreaded forced rhymes discussed previously, but it also says nothing of any significance. While these types of poems, at times, sound beautiful, they are ultimately as empty as "Roses are Red, Violets Are Blue." Often, poems inspired by love--like poems inspired by despair--have no ultimate meaning, beyond expressing ordinary despair or ordinary love.
You, as a poet, are not the first person to have ever been in love. Unless you have something different to say about love than has already been said, no one will have any interest in reading what you've written.
Poetry fails to be interesting unless it says something new. The repetition of cliches should be avoided at all cost.

I'm often guilty of 2 in any art form I attempt. Now let me ask you something: lyrics seem to me to be one of the humbler types of poetry. Which one of these rules can be relaxed in that context, and to what extent?

(04-05-2013, 05:32 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Some very useful advice -- we've probably said it all before but there's always someone who's missed it and reading this might save you some embarrassment.

Quote:Five Common Mistakes That Novice Poets Make
by Juniper Russo
Poets who are new to the world of writing often repeat each other's mistakes. There are five basic "types" of mistakes when it comes to novice poetry, but they can be avoided easily, if you simply enable yourself to detect these mistakes before you make them. This guide can help to remind you to keep on track and put you a few steps ahead of the competition.
Forced Rhyming Poetry
In the woods, there was a tree.
It numbered one, not two or three.
One of the most common mistakes made by beginner poets, strained rhymes sound awful and are ineffective. The above snip of poetry has redundant--"a tree" already makes it clear that the poem is talking about one single tree. It is noticeable that the poet was simply stressing for a rhyming word to fill the second line.
Stop writing and take a break if you find yourself ever going through a list of rhyming words to see what fits, along the lines of, "Let's see, what rhymes with 'cat'? Hat, that, at, bat, mat--okay, I'll find a way to say something about a door mat!"
If you're determined to write rhyming poetry, wait until a rhyme comes naturally. It looks foolish to force a rhyme when one is not coming easily.
Meaningless Poetry

Dark and clear,
Changing,
The world is orange--
I pray for the rabbits
In the meadow.
Novice poetry is often full of unrelated images and incoherent thoughts. These feeble attempts at surrealism do little-to-nothing to get any kind of informative message across to the reader. While many of the poets who write in this form will defend that their poetry "means whatever you want it to mean", I believe that this is a cop-out from someone unable to write poetry of genuine, significant meaning.
While there is nothing wrong with surrealism, it must be used very carefully and lead to an essential theme or logic. Random strings of unrelated words and thoughts don't read as poetry; they read as nonsense. Poetry should be clear and concise--no reader wants to wade through impenetrable fog.
Woe-is-Me Poetry
I hate my life
My heart has been raped
I want to die
Alone, cold, and afraid.
While it is true that some of the best poetry is written in times of deep despair, a poem's purpose is to shed light on a topic or introduce the reader to a new way of thinking, so it has to be about something more than just feeling sad. Writing about how pitiful your life is will accomplish little to entertain or educate the reader.
It may seem unfair, but no reader really cares that your girlfriend dumped you or that your goldfish died. Crying it out on paper might help to console you, but it will do little to bring you respect or publicity as a writer. Despair has been around since the dawn of humanity, and there are only so many ways to re-word "I am sad."
Ye Olde Language Poetry
Thine argent eyes toucheth my heart
Whilst, yonder, the golden sun doth set.
If a word hasn't been used in common language in three hundred years or more, don't use it. Utilizing outdated words and language patterns does not make you appear educated; it makes you appear stuffy.
Beyond simply sounding outdated, Shakespearean English is very easy for modern poets and writers to misuse. While the mistakes may not be immediately obvious to the reader or poet, they still sound awkward.
Modern English is ever-evolving, but it is complete. Borrowing a word or two that sounds outdated might be useful. Composing an entire poem this way sounds overbearing.
Empty Love-Inspired Poetry
You are prettier than flowers
I could stare at you for hours.
You are sweeter than honey,
And I find your jokes funny.

Not only does the above poetry contain the dreaded forced rhymes discussed previously, but it also says nothing of any significance. While these types of poems, at times, sound beautiful, they are ultimately as empty as "Roses are Red, Violets Are Blue." Often, poems inspired by love--like poems inspired by despair--have no ultimate meaning, beyond expressing ordinary despair or ordinary love.
You, as a poet, are not the first person to have ever been in love. Unless you have something different to say about love than has already been said, no one will have any interest in reading what you've written.
Poetry fails to be interesting unless it says something new. The repetition of cliches should be avoided at all cost.

I so laughed my butt off at this (-:

first of all I am new, I couldn't find the post a new question anywhere so I am sorry for using a reply as a  question post. I also want to say I am sorry to ask for this help. Normally I would put the time and effort in to try my best to learn what I need to learn to complete what I am trying to work on.

I won't for one second presume that if I post a question everyone will answer. I have a poem I found that I am trying to work in one sentence, would someone be willing to look at the section of this poem I need help on.

I thought asking first would be the best way, I only have a few day until I have to use this poem so there is no way I can learn what I need in 2 days.

If someone is willing to help me with one line I will either post it in here or PM someone.

Please accept my apology for the way I am asking for help, again I couldn't find a button to post a new thread and I wouldn't ask someone to help me if I had more time to do my own research.

Either way i appreciate you taking the time to read my post asking if someone would be willing to help me. If I get a "yes" I will post the part I need help on, if someone can show me where the button to start a new post I will post this there. I am new and I know how I am doing this is wrong but I am in need of help and only have 2 days so that is whay I am asking for someone to help me rather than help me learn. I hope you all understand

Thanks in advance

_____________________________________________________________
You can't post a poem anywhere until you have posted and had approved 3 critiques in one of the three critique forums, as should have been in the information. Those forums are "mild", "novice" and "serious". Only after posted and having approved three critiques in these forums can you post your own poetry.

mod/dale

(12-19-2013, 12:48 AM)bena Wrote:  P.P.P.S. Challenge: Write a poem that includes all five.

Challenge accepted!

Your love is
memories of a whale's hips
singing praises beyond your lips
whilst (nod to ella) all the begets us is naught.
I've lost you in a dying sea
whilst I wondered in desert fought.

I shall die now, for there are signs
there is nothing left but sands of time.



PS I think I have written a wonderful poem!  Does that mean I've made it to 6?  I even included a couple of clichés....just to brighten it up!

I've finally found it, the greatest poem of all time. Comparable to the works of Goethe and Plath, Bena encompasses every trait of greatness. In a league of their own. Bravo! 

that whole rabbits thing -- dark and clear should be dark yet clear. changing means the passage of authority, that times are changing, that the speaker is changing. the world is orange -- oranges should here be treated as symbols of death. prayer is always important, in this saga -- remember that everything ends as the speaker's child imitates the death of Christ. and rabbits in the meadow is innocence, perhaps chiefly demonstrated by all the children in the saga. ie (or qed) that surreal poem isn't surreal at all -- it's, very clearly (the key, really, is orange, which is just way too specific to have been just lumped in there) a poem on The Godfather. xD

A lot of people catch static for putting ellipses at the end of lines. I agree it seems overused sometimes, but sometimes a comma just won't do. If it calls for a really hard pause then maybe float in the ellipses instead of a comma or a period. I don't necessarily see a problem with it. I understand this list is more about context than grammar but I think this is a touchy issue that could be discussed.

The last post to this thread was by 8 years ago. But I’ll debate ellipses if you want . . .

I'm fine with ellipses when used correctly. The options for slowing a read down are many...

A comma
A period
A semicolon 
Parenthesis 
A clever line break
White space
An ellipsis...

Using any of them well takes practice.

I love ellipses, even when they're not used correctly.
They create the illusion of thought and give me the time
to pretend I'm thinking.

I'm also quite fond of extended ellipses: the four, five, six,
and sometimes even seven dot ones.

To wit:

        Marcel paused on the precipice...
        as did Kate....
        time passed.....

        meanwhile, on the plane below
        the town's people, fresh with their pitchforks and torches
        waited......

There are two kinds of ellipses. One indicates a pause in prose and poetry, one indicates the omission of words, usually in journalism. An ellipses is three dots separated by spaces. For instance, in the context of journalistic quotation, “[A]n ellipses is three dots separated by spaces. For instance, . . . .”

In prose and poetry, ellipses are three dots separated by spaces to indicate inarticulate or unsaid thoughts. For instance, “I think ellipses are great, but . . . ”

In general, ellipses bait a certain kind of empathy. Occasionally, they precede dramatic action.

I have no particular affection for ellipses in poems. They are most useful when the narrator is in crisis, and indicate either a lack of control or a recapture of control.

Ellipsis stuff scraped from the internets:

(I also learned there is MUCH disagreement/variation in the use of
    ellipses, hyphens, n-dashes, m-dashes, colons, semicolons;
    and it's all Emily Dickinson's fault.)

An ellipsis can be written with or without spaces between the dots, both forms
are acceptable.
While the most commonly used ellipsis has three dots, an ellipsis can have more.
The dots in an ellipsis are usually referred to as "ellipsis points".

Uses of ellipses:

Omission of words, lines, and larger structures.
    A common convention when you are omitting part of quote is to use brackets
    around the ellipsis to emphasize that you, not the person being quoted, are
    doing the omission:
        “I love you without knowing how, or when, or from where. [...] I love you so
        intimately that your hand upon my chest is my hand, so intimately that when
        I fall asleep your eyes close.”
        ― Pablo Neruda

    When omitting the lines of a poem that uses a fixed number of metrical feet
    per line, one convention is to use enough ellipsis points to equal the length of
    the average line:
        "When my love swears that she is made of truth
          I do believe her though I know she lies,
          ...............................................
          Therefore I lie with her and she with me,
          And in our faults by lies we flattered be."
          ― famous Brit


A speaker trailing off into silence to think, sleep, lose consciousness, die
A speaker hesitating due to uncertainty, threat, fear, psychological trauma
To imply that a speaker wants to avoid certain words or leave them unspoken

Pauses - for thought, pacing, dramatic effect, interruptions
    The number of ellipsis points can denote the length of the pause
Time-related effects, discontinuity, nonlinearity
Passage of time

To denote that the text/dialog continued but is missing/not intelligible
To encourage the reader to fill in the missing information
To allow the reader to create their own version of events
To create a psychological/emotional connection between the reader and the narrative

To suggest the possibility of future continuation (when at the end)
To suggest a continuation from the past (when at the beginning)

A change of subject
An off-topic remark
A change of viewpoint
A switch in attention
A digression, deviation

A substitute for a line break/paragraph when line breaks, multiple spaces
can't be entered/aren't available


My takeaway from this exploration is that I'm pretty much fine with any of these uses.
What'd be finer would be for the writer to be consistent enough so's I'd get a clue
as to what's happening.

(But I can't help but think that the reason I can afford to be so magnanimous
is that I rarely, if at all, use any punctuation (have I ever used an ellipsis? not sure,
but probably not) or uppercase in my poems cuz I prefer to use white space.)

And.... I couldn't help but notice that one dot and three dots and up are taken,
but what about two dots? There's a big opportunity just sitting, waiting for some
entrepreneurial writer to gobble up.