Hoooooo! Hoo! Hoo! Hooooo! We're off at last!
The hounds blur out, red riders pass
in full-blood haste; on stirrups straight,
down Old Church Lane through Gunner's Gate.

Hooooo! Hoooo hoo hoooo! The whippers-in
out flank the dogs.The distant din
pulls round the Pinks, who breach the beck
with spume and spray and steaming necks.

Hoooo hoo hoo hooo!  There runs Reynard!
We'll have his brush today, we will!
Down Deepend Drop he'll find it hard
to stay this chase. We'll make this kill!

Hooo hoo hoo hoo. Quick, match his pace!
He's turned! Heel, couples! Back on scent
or quarterers will miss the place
and who will know which way he went!

Hoo hoo. Hoo hoo. Down goes old Jock,
his mare is up and run'in spooked.
Texels a teaming, fleeing flock;
ewes under hooves and overlooked.

Hoo hoo....hooo hoo. A pretty mess!
The fox has run rings to his lair.
The hounds are spread, the riders less,
the sheep are dots, we've lost Jock's mare.

Hoooooowoooowoooowoo. The breath is back;
hound's hearts are pumping, horses snort.
We lost him on the steepest track;
outfoxed again but oh, what sport.

tectak
Early hunt AABB, Later hunt ABAB Last line maybe "..outfoxed again, they call this sport." AYLI Abu

Tomcat Foxtrot,

This is an excellent poem if your intention is to run off 95% of your readers as it includes an abundance of "foxhunting" nomenclature (some of which is not in the dictionary) to thoroughly confuse anyone who is not intimately familiar with the vomitous and barbaric sport/pastime called foxhunting. Foxhunting, where a large group of men, and sometimes women, armed with projectile throwing weapons, as well as a number of trained hunting dogs try to run to ground a vastly out number and overpowered fox, with the sole purpose of killing the poor creature. Should the poor creature actually win through against such odds (to the shame of these people who trying to drive a thumb tack with a sledgehammer and somehow beyond belief fail), he has the enviable life to lead of an overtaxed heart which will surely fail him soon enough, and so these "hunters" in their bumbling clumsiness manage to succeed even when abysmally failing such a simply task.
So, I assume this is an "elitist poem", reserved only for the noble blue blooded brethren who have been initiated into the arcane brotherhood of fox-hunters.          

OK, all sport aside, I've killed my fox   On to the poem.

Seriously, there are a number of fairly obscure words that should be footnoted as their particular definitions are way down the page and difficult to find in a number of cases. I recommend these words: Pinks (jackets), Reynard (the fox), couples (two paired dogs), beck(stream), quarterers (I never did find this one, I assumed it was doubled couples), and Texels (sheep). Two of these my spell checker doesn't even recognize, so I do not think I am out of line when I say they are obscure. Maybe I'm wrong, but to my way of thinking it is difficult to get much from a poem if the person doesn't understand the words. Just a thought.

The iambic tetrameter holds up well through the first two stanzas, and although still on meter, the lines become less than smooth in S3. In S4 L3 we've chucked it altogether. Awkward line in S5 L4 is definitely off meter, unless you meant to change to change to trochee in mid stream. Ah, back to form in S6, probably the best stanza in the bunch. S7, on meter, however the L4 rejoinder is weak at best, which makes for a weak ending. That you also don't return to couplets on this last stanza hurts it some in terms of making it weaker.

When the lines are sharp, they bring energy to the poem, and enhance/supplement the content, when they are not, they do not. Yes, as I read back over it, it is pretty much that simple. when the lines are on it keeps the poem moving. Even when they are technically correct, sometimes they are not good enough as they drain energy from the poem. The first line that caught my eye was.

"We'll have his brush today, we will!"

It is iambic tetrameter, however when I read it, it causes me to slow down. I feel as though I am digging a shovel into the ground with every foot. Slowing down drains energy away from the poem. Plus just beginning and ending with we will and we will, you just try to camouflage the first one by a contraction. Anything for a rhyme I suppose? On this same note it is often just the phrasing that seems to slow the pace:

"He's turned, get couples back on scent"

It is not so much the "He's turned" but what follows, pace wise, seems to lack a sense of urgency. Compare this to a line in the same place in the next stanza:

"his mare is up and run'in spooked"

this line reads much quicker. It energizes the reading, instead of sucking energy from it. Just in general we rarely want to drain energy from a poem, but especially in a poem of this type where the action is driven by frenetic energy anyway, one certainly doesn't want to do anything to take away from that. So even though it seems as not a big deal, in this particular poem, I think this should be given attention.

This line reads a bit awkwardly "and who'll know then which way he went!"

Should probably read "and who will know which way he's gone!" Of course it must rhyme so the "went" stays and the "gone" goes! Possibly still keep the other changes of dropping the "then" and changing odd contraction of "who'll"  to "who will" so it reads:

"and who will know which way he went!"

By kicking out the word "who'll" which is generally pronounced as a diphthong, like hoo-uwl, although properly "hool", but either way it seems to me to be energy draining, whereas the alternative above keeps going the nice bouncy pace which is the rule for most of this poem.

"to stay this chase. We'll make a kill!"

One other note: S3 L4 Definite object needed? "to stay this chase. We'll make a kill!" Should this not be "the kill" as what is going to be killed is known. We are not going to kill a fox, we are going to kill the fox upon who's trail we're on. See, fox is specific. Also, the use of stay can be confusing. "to stay this chase" sounds very similar to, "to stay the course", which gives the reader a completely differently read than was intended. Using "stay" to mean "to stop or halt" is the 6th definition of the word, not a particularly well known usage. All of this combines to slow down the reading at minimum and halt it at worst.   



You might keep in mind during the editing the idea of needing to keep the pace of the line up. More so in this poem, which of course is about a chase, rather than in other poems. For this poem to work best I think you need not to just give it the words of a chase, but the energetic feel of a chase. I know you know what I am talking about as I have read several of your poems that had this idea incorporated in them.

I'm sure on some of my comments (nomenclature) you will tell me some such thing as "well all of the UK knows about this" which I guess is a slight exaggeration, but still that's at best 64 million, and then maybe you could add in all of Australia, although I doubt most there are as knowledgeable as Leanne about things British, but I'll still give you their 23 million. That gives you 87 million people. Just to make it fair, I'll also add in Canada, even though a lot of Canadians speak French, but we can add in their 35 million, giving you, 122million that possibly know about foxhunting, oh and I forgot New Zealand (JM would kill me). I'll round it up, so that give you and additional; 5 million, bring the total to 127 million who know about foxhunting. So at the extreme limits of credulity we will say that 127 million people are sufficiently aware of foxhunting to not be stumped by these words that I pointed out. I'll even give you 10 million from the US who could know about foxhunting, bringing you up to 137 million people in the world that would know enough about foxhunting to easily read your poem. Still, and subtracting the 10 million I already deducted, there are approx 320 million people in the United States who probably Know nothing about fox hunting...of course I would never accuse you of being an elitist or a snob, simply because you discount 320 million people as not being worthwhile enough to read your poetry. Parish the thought

Dale            

(12-11-2014, 06:13 AM)Erthona Wrote:  Tomcat Foxtrot,

This is an excellent poem if your intention is to run off 95% of your readers as it includes an abundance of "foxhunting" nomenclature (some of which is not in the dictionary) to thoroughly confuse anyone who is not intimately familiar with the vomitous and barbaric sport/pastime called foxhunting. Foxhunting, where a large group of men, and sometimes women, armed with projectile throwing weapons, as well as a number of trained hunting dogs try to run to ground a vastly out number and overpowered fox, with the sole purpose of killing the poor creature. Should the poor creature actually win through against such odds (to the shame of these people who trying to drive a thumb tack with a sledgehammer and somehow beyond belief fail), he has the enviable life to lead of an overtaxed heart which will surely fail him soon enough, and so these "hunters" in their bumbling clumsiness manage to succeed even when abysmally failing such a simply task.
So, I assume this is an "elitist poem", reserved only for the noble blue blooded brethren who have been initiated into the arcane brotherhood of fox-hunters.          

OK, all sport aside, I've killed my fox   On to the poem.

Seriously, there are a number of fairly obscure words that should be footnoted as their particular definitions are way down the page and difficult to find in a number of cases. I recommend these words: Pinks (jackets), Reynard (the fox), couples (two paired dogs), beck(stream), quarterers (I never did find this one, I assumed it was doubled couples), and Texels (sheep). Two of these my spell checker doesn't even recognize, so I do not think I am out of line when I say they are obscure. Maybe I'm wrong, but to my way of thinking it is difficult to get much from a poem if the person doesn't understand the words. Just a thought.

The iambic tetrameter holds up well through the first two stanzas, and although still on meter, the lines become less than smooth in S3. In S4 L3 we've chucked it altogether. Awkward line in S5 L4 is definitely off meter, unless you meant to change to change to trochee in mid stream. Ah, back to form in S6, probably the best stanza in the bunch. S7, on meter, however the L4 rejoinder is weak at best, which makes for a weak ending. That you also don't return to couplets on this last stanza hurts it some in terms of making it weaker.

When the lines are sharp, they bring energy to the poem, and enhance/supplement the content, when they are not, they do not. Yes, as I read back over it, it is pretty much that simple. when the lines are on it keeps the poem moving. Even when they are technically correct, sometimes they are not good enough as they drain energy from the poem. The first line that caught my eye was.

"We'll have his brush today, we will!"

It is iambic tetrameter, however when I read it, it causes me to slow down. I feel as though I am digging a shovel into the ground with every foot. Slowing down drains energy away from the poem. Plus just beginning and ending with we will and we will, you just try to camouflage the first one by a contraction. Anything for a rhyme I suppose? On this same note it is often just the phrasing that seems to slow the pace:

"He's turned, get couples back on scent"

It is not so much the "He's turned" but what follows, pace wise, seems to lack a sense of urgency. Compare this to a line in the same place in the next stanza:

"his mare is up and run'in spooked"

this line reads much quicker. It energizes the reading, instead of sucking energy from it. Just in general we rarely want to drain energy from a poem, but especially in a poem of this type where the action is driven by frenetic energy anyway, one certainly doesn't want to do anything to take away from that. So even though it seems as not a big deal, in this particular poem, I think this should be given attention.

This line reads a bit awkwardly "and who'll know then which way he went!"

Should probably read "and who will know which way he's gone!" Of course it must rhyme so the "went" stays and the "gone" goes! Possibly still keep the other changes of dropping the "then" and changing odd contraction of "who'll"  to "who will" so it reads:

"and who will know which way he went!"

By kicking out the word "who'll" which is generally pronounced as a diphthong, like hoo-uwl, although properly "hool", but either way it seems to me to be energy draining, whereas the alternative above keeps going the nice bouncy pace which is the rule for most of this poem.

"to stay this chase. We'll make a kill!"

One other note: S3 L4 Definite object needed? "to stay this chase. We'll make a kill!" Should this not be "the kill" as what is going to be killed is known. We are not going to kill a fox, we are going to kill the fox upon who's trail we're on. See, fox is specific. Also, the use of stay can be confusing. "to stay this chase" sounds very similar to, "to stay the course", which gives the reader a completely differently read than was intended. Using "stay" to mean "to stop or halt" is the 6th definition of the word, not a particularly well known usage. All of this combines to slow down the reading at minimum and halt it at worst.   



You might keep in mind during the editing the idea of needing to keep the pace of the line up. More so in this poem, which of course is about a chase, rather than in other poems. For this poem to work best I think you need not to just give it the words of a chase, but the energetic feel of a chase. I know you know what I am talking about as I have read several of your poems that had this idea incorporated in them.

I'm sure on some of my comments (nomenclature) you will tell me some such thing as "well all of the UK knows about this" which I guess is a slight exaggeration, but still that's at best 64 million, and then maybe you could add in all of Australia, although I doubt most there are as knowledgeable as Leanne about things British, but I'll still give you their 23 million. That gives you 87 million people. Just to make it fair, I'll also add in Canada, even though a lot of Canadians speak French, but we can add in their 35 million, giving you, 122million that possibly know about foxhunting, oh and I forgot New Zealand (JM would kill me). I'll round it up, so that give you and additional; 5 million, bring the total to 127 million who know about foxhunting. So at the extreme limits of credulity we will say that 127 million people are sufficiently aware of foxhunting to not be stumped by these words that I pointed out. I'll even give you 10 million from the US who could know about foxhunting, bringing you up to 137 million people in the world that would know enough about foxhunting to easily read your poem. Still, and subtracting the 10 million I already deducted, there are approx 320 million people in the United States who probably Know nothing about fox hunting...of course I would never accuse you of being an elitist or a snob, simply because you discount 320 million people as not being worthwhile enough to read your poetry. Parish the thought.

Dale            

  Lingua in maxillam for now. More will surely follow.....HooooHooooHooooHooo!
Best,
thanks,
tectak

(12-11-2014, 06:13 AM)Erthona Wrote:  Tomcat Foxtrot,

This is an excellent poem if your intention is to run off 95% of your readers as it includes an abundance of "foxhunting" nomenclature (some of which is not in the dictionary) to thoroughly confuse anyone who is not intimately familiar with the vomitous and barbaric sport/pastime called foxhunting. Foxhunting, where a large group of men, and sometimes women, armed with projectile throwing weapons, as well as a number of trained hunting dogs try to run to ground a vastly out number and overpowered fox, with the sole purpose of killing the poor creature. Should the poor creature actually win through against such odds (to the shame of these people who trying to drive a thumb tack with a sledgehammer and somehow beyond belief fail), he has the enviable life to lead of an overtaxed heart which will surely fail him soon enough, and so these "hunters" in their bumbling clumsiness manage to succeed even when abysmally failing such a simply task.
So, I assume this is an "elitist poem", reserved only for the noble blue blooded brethren who have been initiated into the arcane brotherhood of fox-hunters.          

OK, all sport aside, I've killed my fox   On to the poem.

Seriously, there are a number of fairly obscure words that should be footnoted as their particular definitions are way down the page and difficult to find in a number of cases. I recommend these words: Pinks (jackets), Reynard (the fox), couples (two paired dogs), beck(stream), quarterers (I never did find this one, I assumed it was doubled couples), and Texels (sheep). Two of these my spell checker doesn't even recognize, so I do not think I am out of line when I say they are obscure. Maybe I'm wrong, but to my way of thinking it is difficult to get much from a poem if the person doesn't understand the words. Just a thought.

The iambic tetrameter holds up well through the first two stanzas, and although still on meter, the lines become less than smooth in S3. In S4 L3 we've chucked it altogether. Awkward line in S5 L4 is definitely off meter, unless you meant to change to change to trochee in mid stream. Ah, back to form in S6, probably the best stanza in the bunch. S7, on meter, however the L4 rejoinder is weak at best, which makes for a weak ending. That you also don't return to couplets on this last stanza hurts it some in terms of making it weaker.

When the lines are sharp, they bring energy to the poem, and enhance/supplement the content, when they are not, they do not. Yes, as I read back over it, it is pretty much that simple. when the lines are on it keeps the poem moving. Even when they are technically correct, sometimes they are not good enough as they drain energy from the poem. The first line that caught my eye was.

"We'll have his brush today, we will!"

It is iambic tetrameter, however when I read it, it causes me to slow down. I feel as though I am digging a shovel into the ground with every foot. Slowing down drains energy away from the poem. Plus just beginning and ending with we will and we will, you just try to camouflage the first one by a contraction. Anything for a rhyme I suppose? On this same note it is often just the phrasing that seems to slow the pace:

"He's turned, get couples back on scent"

It is not so much the "He's turned" but what follows, pace wise, seems to lack a sense of urgency. Compare this to a line in the same place in the next stanza:

"his mare is up and run'in spooked"

this line reads much quicker. It energizes the reading, instead of sucking energy from it. Just in general we rarely want to drain energy from a poem, but especially in a poem of this type where the action is driven by frenetic energy anyway, one certainly doesn't want to do anything to take away from that. So even though it seems as not a big deal, in this particular poem, I think this should be given attention.

This line reads a bit awkwardly "and who'll know then which way he went!"

Should probably read "and who will know which way he's gone!" Of course it must rhyme so the "went" stays and the "gone" goes! Possibly still keep the other changes of dropping the "then" and changing odd contraction of "who'll"  to "who will" so it reads:

"and who will know which way he went!"

By kicking out the word "who'll" which is generally pronounced as a diphthong, like hoo-uwl, although properly "hool", but either way it seems to me to be energy draining, whereas the alternative above keeps going the nice bouncy pace which is the rule for most of this poem.

"to stay this chase. We'll make a kill!"

One other note: S3 L4 Definite object needed? "to stay this chase. We'll make a kill!" Should this not be "the kill" as what is going to be killed is known. We are not going to kill a fox, we are going to kill the fox upon who's trail we're on. See, fox is specific. Also, the use of stay can be confusing. "to stay this chase" sounds very similar to, "to stay the course", which gives the reader a completely differently read than was intended. Using "stay" to mean "to stop or halt" is the 6th definition of the word, not a particularly well known usage. All of this combines to slow down the reading at minimum and halt it at worst.   



You might keep in mind during the editing the idea of needing to keep the pace of the line up. More so in this poem, which of course is about a chase, rather than in other poems. For this poem to work best I think you need not to just give it the words of a chase, but the energetic feel of a chase. I know you know what I am talking about as I have read several of your poems that had this idea incorporated in them.

I'm sure on some of my comments (nomenclature) you will tell me some such thing as "well all of the UK knows about this" which I guess is a slight exaggeration, but still that's at best 64 million, and then maybe you could add in all of Australia, although I doubt most there are as knowledgeable as Leanne about things British, but I'll still give you their 23 million. That gives you 87 million people. Just to make it fair, I'll also add in Canada, even though a lot of Canadians speak French, but we can add in their 35 million, giving you, 122million that possibly know about foxhunting, oh and I forgot New Zealand (JM would kill me). I'll round it up, so that give you and additional; 5 million, bring the total to 127 million who know about foxhunting. So at the extreme limits of credulity we will say that 127 million people are sufficiently aware of foxhunting to not be stumped by these words that I pointed out. I'll even give you 10 million from the US who could know about foxhunting, bringing you up to 137 million people in the world that would know enough about foxhunting to easily read your poem. Still, and subtracting the 10 million I already deducted, there are approx 320 million people in the United States who probably Know nothing about fox hunting...of course I would never accuse you of being an elitist or a snob, simply because you discount 320 million people as not being worthwhile enough to read your poetry. Parish the thought

Dale            

Hi dale,
Many thanks for this. Your technical points will be dealt with in an edit. Some I missed, some l'll resist, but on most I concur.
Ethics.
I have lived all of my life, with a few years out, in fox-hunting spheres. I am NOT against the hunt but no longer follow or support the activity. Foxes ARE a problem whilst alive and a problem when trying to kill them. "Humane" methods like shooting, trapping or poisoning  are unfortunately proven to be, in some cases, the least humane when compared to hunting. So ethically we need to take a view. Question. Do we see a need to control the fox population? Well, having seen SEVERAL times the slaughter which foxes are genetically predisposed to perpetrate, I have to conclude that we MUST cull.
Cull is not an emotive term. We cull many species for the proven good of the population. Shooting is, though, only suitable for largish, surface  living beasts. A large caliber, high velocity bullet will bring down a deer, for example, through shock if the shot is slightly off target. Foxes have no value, escape wounded into dens, lairs and bolt-holes to die long and stressful deaths. Contrary to what you seem to believe, (tongue in cheek?), fox hunters do not carry spears, curmugeons or pointy things on poles. They hunt down the "quarry" and kill it quickly and, some would argue, naturally. i.e. by chase, capture and kill.
So why don't I follow or support the hunt any more? Easy. As I got older I began to look more at absolutes, seeing things in my mind with the benefit of prior knowledge...hunt foxes because you must, but don't expect me to like it.
Terminology.
Hmmm. All is googleable. I have never heard a huntsman call the fox "Reynard" but but is in common usage amongst the illiterate classes...which may explain why you haven't heard it before. More  likely the officionados would use quarry, Basil, Sly, Ol'sly, Freddie.
Pinks, hunting pinks...yes, from Thomas Pink who made the jackets.
Beck. Northern England and common elsewhere, too. Stream, small river, water-filled gully.
Couple you know.
ah....quarterers. NOT a fox hunting term, but used by HUNTERS once their spaniel or labrador has learned to sniff out an area by by "quartering" as a search procedure. Hence no capital letter. Hunters of birds, vermin,game are more likely called "shooters"....but many run with the hounds as well.
Whipper-in. Keeps the hounds in order and often helps out at the kennels or actually cares for the hounds.
Brush is tail, mask is head.
Texel. Extremely popular and widespread breed of pig-faced sheep. I cannot believe you have never shag...er...sheared one. Hasn't everybody?
Why tongue in cheek from me? Well, you can call it culling, you can call it killing....but sport? Never.
Best,
tectak
Note. This was written in 2011 but slightly edited as my opinion adjusted.

No, as I mentioned at the end of my rant, I had killed my fox, that is I had pulled your leg. I quite agree with the idea of culling, we have the same problem with deer here. Nobody wants hunters to kill Bambi, well that is until they find Bambi in their living room, having broken the very expensive plate glass window (that the insurance company will try not to reimburse as an act of nature) to get in, not to mention trashed everything in that part of the house: paintings, electronics, furniture, et.al.. The projectile weapons I referred to were meant to be guns. Spears? No, I don't think you are Highlanders who wish to bath in the blud of their kill :)

In terms of the terminology, I think you do not realise just how exclusive you are actually being, or what kind of a burden you are placing on your reader, or in the long run what kind of arrogance that suggests; that you are of such high stature as a writer as to be worthy of such as effort on the part of your reader. .
Of the exclusiveness I can't convince you, I can only state it, but I think you know I am no lightweight when it comes to vocabulary, nor am I below average in overall knowledge of world historical events (of course I am going to know less about Britain's history than a native, but compared to most Americans I would be considered quite astute, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not. Although I grew up in a small town, my fathers people were farm people, and I spent a fair amount of time on their farm in my youth. I was taught how to shoot a gun by the age of ten, and owned my own semi-automatic .22 long rifle by that age also. I was taught to tract various animals, usual those that were bothersome animals to the workings of the farm. We never needed to use a larger caliber in most cases unless it was some sort of cat, or a coyote. The cats were of the smaller type, wildcats, bobcats, lynx, we never saw any jaguars, or puma in that area, although they were known a little further south. My father was such a proficient shot with a .22 he could light a match at fifty yards. I could never even hit a match at fifty yards. I was lucky to hit a can, but then again he was much more patient than I. As I grew to adult hood I left behind hunting as it generally made me sick to kill things, that however does not make me ignorant about it. Still there were ten to twelve words in your poem which I had to look up, I personally think that is excessive. Considering my background in literature it is fairly easy for me to "look up" a word's definitions and with little effort in most cases integrate it into the reading. A general reader does not have such experience and so would much more easily get frustrated and have a greater difficulty integrating the definition of the word into the reading, and would become much more easily frustrated. Even if the reader were a American hunter, I think few of the words would be similar, maybe "quarterers", and other terms specifically related to hunting dogs, but that is still a very small part of the population.
I am not saying to remove these words. I am saying that you show an amazing lack of empathy for your readers, and an arrogance beyond that of T.S. Elliot, by not footnoting the definitions of these words so at least your readers will only have to go to the bottom of the page to get the information. Just one specific and I'll conclude. Although I am all for picturesque language, if there is not a picture next to the definition of "Texels" then you might just as well use the word sheep, for it will make no difference to the reader. When I read it, that is what I read. I did not see "pig-faced sheep" I saw no faces at all. I saw a herd of sheep trying to cross a road when someone is trying to pass. The term did not bring up anything nostalgic for me, nor did I remember being on Uncle Ben's farm and playing hide and seek among the Texels with my cousins Bill and Ted. Nope, all I saw were plain old sheep.

BTW Here is the definition the dictionary gives for Texels...that is if you look far enough.

"a breed of sheep originating from the Netherlands having a heavy white fleece: kept for the production of lean lambs"  

Nope nothing about pig-faced.      

"Hmmm. All is googleable. I have never heard a huntsman call the fox "Reynard" but but is in common usage amongst the illiterate classes...which may explain why you haven't heard it before. More  likely the officionados(is this meant as a play on words?) would use quarry, Basil, Sly, Ol'sly, Freddie."

Just the above quote shows how out of touch you are on this. The only term I have heard from the above is "quarry" and that as a generic term for anything one would hunt. Primarily I think I have heard it used by Elmer Fudd on Bugs Bunny, possibly in Little Abner. However I have generally heard it used to describe the place where Fred Flintstone works. A rock quarry. To quarry stone. Later used in WWII films regarding the opponent in dogfights. Or the opponent between submarines. Still it is by far the most common word used in the list. The rest seem fairly provincial, as do most of the words I pointed out in your poem.  

Basil is an herb. There is also Basil Rathbone (who I suspect was more well known than your usage). Right up there with Errol Flynn I believe.
Freddie was Eliza Doolittle's boyfriend's name in "My Fair Lady". He sang "On the Street Where You Live", I'm sure you recall?
Sly, the nickname of the so called "actor" who played "Rocky", also Sly and the Family Stone. Surely you've heard of them, they are world famous.
Ol'sly, obviously a British spelling of "Owsley", the chap who produced copious amounts of LSD to fuel the chemical side of the cultural revolution of the 60'.  
Pinks, has several definitions. Pink slips, car titles. Last pay check due to firing. As they say on "Big Bang Theory" refers to certain "Lady Parts". Also slang referring to a branding by Victoria Secrets.  
Thomas, Saint Thomas Aquinas, or Thomas the doubter, follower of Jesus in the Bible. Also a book in the Nag Hammadi library, "Gospel of Thomas". Although not part of the Nag Hammadi Library, one of my favs is "Gospel of Mary Magdalene". I like the part where the disciples are complaining about Jesus spending so much time with Mary. They say, Why are you spending so much time with her, she is a woman, she cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus replies, I will make her a man... The possibilities are endless. I wonder if that is where the rocky Horror Show got that line, and title for that song, "I Can Make You a Man", sung of course by  Frank N. Furter, Janet and and Transylvanians. I'm sure you've sang it before as part of the audience. Who did you dress up as? I'm betting "Dr. Scott."   (Sorry off Topic of Camphor).   


To illustrate the difficulty for the reader when one uses too much provincial/obscure language in a piece of writing (and I removed about half).  

"A conversation with my Father while working in the oilfields."

Well throw some casing head on it and hit it with a sucker-rod, the damn things sucking air, but we don't have time to pull it today. It doesn't make much anyway. Just shut the thing down. We still have to change out the old gun barrel and see if circulating that new chemical through help the VS so they'll take the stuff this time. There's a big blow coming tomorrow I just hope the primaries hold this time.

Yeah, I know, I hate having to stick those things when it's windy and wet.

If they blow I'll call you so you can meet me here.

Gee, thanks!

Did you grease the powerhouse and make sure number 19 is hitting down.

Yeah, but we're gonna hav'ta change out that line 'fore too long, it's almost worn through, or at least a few rods.

That's true, but not today, we already need a bigger plate.

Yeah, but if it breaks, it will throw the power out of balance and burn up that 50 HP motor which will cost a shinny penny. I could come back this evening and change out the worst ones.

I thought you had class tomorrow.

I do but they don't start till noon, but I'll get enough, I'll just have to leave early from out here.

Well OK if you want to. I'll tell Briscoe to come over when he is done and give you a hand, getting that power stopped is more than a one man job.

I've done it before.

Yeah I know you have, but if something should go wrong, there would be no one here to call an ambulance.

OK, I'll wait for Briscoe.
 

Good, I'm off to the North Roller to put some drip in the Witte. I'll probably walk so you won't be able to get a hold of me for awhile, but I should be back before you get to the Body. Hit me on the 2-way and let me know how things are when you get there, I should be back in pocket by then.

Sure, I'll stop by Loyd's and see how Hitler is doing with his bite, and let you know. I can't believe it didn't kill him.

Big dumb dog. Never seen a white German Shepard before. Make sure the light oil reserve on the water pump is full and correctly discharging, those ceramics will break quick if they get too hot, and that is also a pretty penny. Jack has been having trouble keeping it clear, although I suspect the problem is more about Jack than the pump since we never have that problem over here. Make sure he is using the right viscosity. I suspect he is using a heavier because he is too God damn lazy to walk the extra ten feet. I know you don't want to, but I may have to move you to that lease, and pull him over here where I can keep an eye on him. Be sure and change the paper on the chart house first thing when you arrive, so you can check it when you leave.

OK I'll go in the back way, less chance of the scaly guards at the gate.

I've gone over there and a number of times it has not been changed. The output is dropping and it may be because the water-flooding has stopped, but he doesn't know it because he never changes the chart. You still got your snake charmer? Good! I killed one by the gate, and one right by the door of the chart house. Keep an eye out, you know it's shedding season, and they're virtual blind and will strike at anything. Stay safe.

"Hmmm. All is googleable."    :hysterical:

(12-13-2014, 12:34 PM)Erthona Wrote:  No, as I mentioned at the end of my rant, I had killed my fox, that is I had pulled your leg. I quite agree with the idea of culling, we have the same problem with deer here. Nobody wants hunters to kill Bambi, well that is until they find Bambi in their living room, having broken the very expensive plate glass window (that the insurance company will try not to reimburse as an act of nature) to get in, not to mention trashed everything in that part of the house: paintings, electronics, furniture, et.al.. The projectile weapons I referred to were meant to be guns. Spears? No, I don't think you are Highlanders who wish to bath in the blud of their kill

In terms of the terminology, I think you do not realise just how exclusive you are actually being, or what kind of a burden you are placing on your reader, or in the long run what kind of arrogance that suggests; that you are of such high stature as a writer as to be worthy of such as effort on the part of your reader. .
Of the exclusiveness I can't convince you, I can only state it, but I think you know I am no lightweight when it comes to vocabulary, nor am I below average in overall knowledge of world historical events (of course I am going to know less about Britain's history than a native, but compared to most Americans I would be considered quite astute, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not. Although I grew up in a small town, my fathers people were farm people, and I spent a fair amount of time on their farm in my youth. I was taught how to shoot a gun by the age of ten, and owned my own semi-automatic .22 long rifle by that age also. I was taught to tract various animals, usual those that were bothersome animals to the workings of the farm. We never needed to use a larger caliber in most cases unless it was some sort of cat, or a coyote. The cats were of the smaller type, wildcats, bobcats, lynx, we never saw any jaguars, or puma in that area, although they were known a little further south. My father was such a proficient shot with a .22 he could light a match at fifty yards. I could never even hit a match at fifty yards. I was lucky to hit a can, but then again he was much more patient than I. As I grew to adult hood I left behind hunting as it generally made me sick to kill things, that however does not make me ignorant about it. Still there were ten to twelve words in your poem which I had to look up, I personally think that is excessive. Considering my background in literature it is fairly easy for me to "look up" a word's definitions and with little effort in most cases integrate it into the reading. A general reader does not have such experience and so would much more easily get frustrated and have a greater difficulty integrating the definition of the word into the reading, and would become much more easily frustrated. Even if the reader were a American hunter, I think few of the words would be similar, maybe "quarterers", and other terms specifically related to hunting dogs, but that is still a very small part of the population.
I am not saying to remove these words. I am saying that you show an amazing lack of empathy for your readers, and an arrogance beyond that of T.S. Elliot, by not footnoting the definitions of these words so at least your readers will only have to go to the bottom of the page to get the information. Just one specific and I'll conclude. Although I am all for picturesque language, if there is not a picture next to the definition of "Texels" then you might just as well use the word sheep, for it will make no difference to the reader. When I read it, that is what I read. I did not see "pig-faced sheep" I saw no faces at all. I saw a herd of sheep trying to cross a road when someone is trying to pass. The term did not bring up anything nostalgic for me, nor did I remember being on Uncle Ben's farm and playing hide and seek among the Texels with my cousins Bill and Ted. Nope, all I saw were plain old sheep.

BTW Here is the definition the dictionary gives for Texels...that is if you look far enough.

"a breed of sheep originating from the Netherlands having a heavy white fleece: kept for the production of lean lambs"  

Nope nothing about pig-faced.      

"Hmmm. All is googleable. I have never heard a huntsman call the fox "Reynard" but but is in common usage amongst the illiterate classes...which may explain why you haven't heard it before. More  likely the officionados(is this meant as a play on words?) would use quarry, Basil, Sly, Ol'sly, Freddie."

Just the above quote shows how out of touch you are on this. The only term I have heard from the above is "quarry" and that as a generic term for anything one would hunt. Primarily I think I have heard it used by Elmer Fudd on Bugs Bunny, possibly in Little Abner. However I have generally heard it used to describe the place where Fred Flintstone works. A rock quarry. To quarry stone. Later used in WWII films regarding the opponent in dogfights. Or the opponent between submarines. Still it is by far the most common word used in the list. The rest seem fairly provincial, as do most of the words I pointed out in your poem.  

Basil is an herb. There is also Basil Rathbone (who I suspect was more well known than your usage). Right up there with Errol Flynn I believe.
Freddie was Eliza Doolittle's boyfriend's name in "My Fair Lady". He sang "On the Street Where You Live", I'm sure you recall?
Sly, the nickname of the so called "actor" who played "Rocky", also Sly and the Family Stone. Surely you've heard of them, they are world famous.
Ol'sly, obviously a British spelling of "Owsley", the chap who produced copious amounts of LSD to fuel the chemical side of the cultural revolution of the 60'.  
Pinks, has several definitions. Pink slips, car titles. Last pay check due to firing. As they say on "Big Bang Theory" refers to certain "Lady Parts". Also slang referring to a branding by Victoria Secrets.  
Thomas, Saint Thomas Aquinas, or Thomas the doubter, follower of Jesus in the Bible. Also a book in the Nag Hammadi library, "Gospel of Thomas". Although not part of the Nag Hammadi Library, one of my favs is "Gospel of Mary Magdalene". I like the part where the disciples are complaining about Jesus spending so much time with Mary. They say, Why are you spending so much time with her, she is a woman, she cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus replies, I will make her a man... The possibilities are endless. I wonder if that is where the rocky Horror Show got that line, and title for that song, "I Can Make You a Man", sung of course by  Frank N. Furter, Janet and and Transylvanians. I'm sure you've sang it before as part of the audience. Who did you dress up as? I'm betting "Dr. Scott."   (Sorry off Topic of Camphor).   


To illustrate the difficulty for the reader when one uses too much provincial/obscure language in a piece of writing (and I removed about half).  

"A conversation with my Father while working in the oilfields."

Well throw some casing head on it and hit it with a sucker-rod, the damn things sucking air, but we don't have time to pull it today. It doesn't make much anyway. Just shut the thing down. We still have to change out the old gun barrel and see if circulating that new chemical through help the VS so they'll take the stuff this time. There's a big blow coming tomorrow I just hope the primaries hold this time.

Yeah, I know, I hate having to stick those things when it's windy and wet.

If they blow I'll call you so you can meet me here.

Gee, thanks!

Did you grease the powerhouse and make sure number 19 is hitting down.

Yeah, but we're gonna hav'ta change out that line 'fore too long, it's almost worn through, or at least a few rods.

That's true, but not today, we already need a bigger plate.

Yeah, but if it breaks, it will throw the power out of balance and burn up that 50 HP motor which will cost a shinny penny. I could come back this evening and change out the worst ones.

I thought you had class tomorrow.

I do but they don't start till noon, but I'll get enough, I'll just have to leave early from out here.

Well OK if you want to. I'll tell Briscoe to come over when he is done and give you a hand, getting that power stopped is more than a one man job.

I've done it before.

Yeah I know you have, but if something should go wrong, there would be no one here to call an ambulance.

OK, I'll wait for Briscoe.
 

Good, I'm off to the North Roller to put some drip in the Witte. I'll probably walk so you won't be able to get a hold of me for awhile, but I should be back before you get to the Body. Hit me on the 2-way and let me know how things are when you get there, I should be back in pocket by then.

Sure, I'll stop by Loyd's and see how Hitler is doing with his bite, and let you know. I can't believe it didn't kill him.

Big dumb dog. Never seen a white German Shepard before. Make sure the light oil reserve on the water pump is full and correctly discharging, those ceramics will break quick if they get too hot, and that is also a pretty penny. Jack has been having trouble keeping it clear, although I suspect the problem is more about Jack than the pump since we never have that problem over here. Make sure he is using the right viscosity. I suspect he is using a heavier because he is too God damn lazy to walk the extra ten feet. I know you don't want to, but I may have to move you to that lease, and pull him over here where I can keep an eye on him. Be sure and change the paper on the chart house first thing when you arrive, so you can check it when you leave.

OK I'll go in the back way, less chance of the scaly guards at the gate.

I've gone over there and a number of times it has not been changed. The output is dropping and it may be because the water-flooding has stopped, but he doesn't know it because he never changes the chart. You still got your snake charmer? Good! I killed one by the gate, and one right by the door of the chart house. Keep an eye out, you know it's shedding season, and they're virtual blind and will strike at anything. Stay safe.

"Hmmm. All is googleable."

For the time being, look up Basil Brush...I think he met an American President (unless he was one, but I don't know much about Americans )

---

(12-13-2014, 10:21 PM)tectak Wrote:  

(12-13-2014, 12:34 PM)Erthona Wrote:  No, as I mentioned at the end of my rant, I had killed my fox, that is I had pulled your leg. I quite agree with the idea of culling, we have the same problem with deer here. Nobody wants hunters to kill Bambi, well that is until they find Bambi in their living room, having broken the very expensive plate glass window (that the insurance company will try not to reimburse as an act of nature) to get in, not to mention trashed everything in that part of the house: paintings, electronics, furniture, et.al.. The projectile weapons I referred to were meant to be guns. Spears? No, I don't think you are Highlanders who wish to bath in the blud of their kill

In terms of the terminology, I think you do not realise just how exclusive you are actually being, or what kind of a burden you are placing on your reader, or in the long run what kind of arrogance that suggests; that you are of such high stature as a writer as to be worthy of such as effort on the part of your reader. .
Of the exclusiveness I can't convince you, I can only state it, but I think you know I am no lightweight when it comes to vocabulary, nor am I below average in overall knowledge of world historical events (of course I am going to know less about Britain's history than a native, but compared to most Americans I would be considered quite astute, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not. Although I grew up in a small town, my fathers people were farm people, and I spent a fair amount of time on their farm in my youth. I was taught how to shoot a gun by the age of ten, and owned my own semi-automatic .22 long rifle by that age also. I was taught to tract various animals, usual those that were bothersome animals to the workings of the farm. We never needed to use a larger caliber in most cases unless it was some sort of cat, or a coyote. The cats were of the smaller type, wildcats, bobcats, lynx, we never saw any jaguars, or puma in that area, although they were known a little further south. My father was such a proficient shot with a .22 he could light a match at fifty yards. I could never even hit a match at fifty yards. I was lucky to hit a can, but then again he was much more patient than I. As I grew to adult hood I left behind hunting as it generally made me sick to kill things, that however does not make me ignorant about it. Still there were ten to twelve words in your poem which I had to look up, I personally think that is excessive. Considering my background in literature it is fairly easy for me to "look up" a word's definitions and with little effort in most cases integrate it into the reading. A general reader does not have such experience and so would much more easily get frustrated and have a greater difficulty integrating the definition of the word into the reading, and would become much more easily frustrated. Even if the reader were a American hunter, I think few of the words would be similar, maybe "quarterers", and other terms specifically related to hunting dogs, but that is still a very small part of the population.
I am not saying to remove these words. I am saying that you show an amazing lack of empathy for your readers, and an arrogance beyond that of T.S. Elliot, by not footnoting the definitions of these words so at least your readers will only have to go to the bottom of the page to get the information. Just one specific and I'll conclude. Although I am all for picturesque language, if there is not a picture next to the definition of "Texels" then you might just as well use the word sheep, for it will make no difference to the reader. When I read it, that is what I read. I did not see "pig-faced sheep" I saw no faces at all. I saw a herd of sheep trying to cross a road when someone is trying to pass. The term did not bring up anything nostalgic for me, nor did I remember being on Uncle Ben's farm and playing hide and seek among the Texels with my cousins Bill and Ted. Nope, all I saw were plain old sheep.

BTW Here is the definition the dictionary gives for Texels...that is if you look far enough.

"a breed of sheep originating from the Netherlands having a heavy white fleece: kept for the production of lean lambs"  

Nope nothing about pig-faced.      

"Hmmm. All is googleable. I have never heard a huntsman call the fox "Reynard" but but is in common usage amongst the illiterate classes...which may explain why you haven't heard it before. More  likely the officionados(is this meant as a play on words?) would use quarry, Basil, Sly, Ol'sly, Freddie."

Just the above quote shows how out of touch you are on this. The only term I have heard from the above is "quarry" and that as a generic term for anything one would hunt. Primarily I think I have heard it used by Elmer Fudd on Bugs Bunny, possibly in Little Abner. However I have generally heard it used to describe the place where Fred Flintstone works. A rock quarry. To quarry stone. Later used in WWII films regarding the opponent in dogfights. Or the opponent between submarines. Still it is by far the most common word used in the list. The rest seem fairly provincial, as do most of the words I pointed out in your poem.  

Basil is an herb. There is also Basil Rathbone (who I suspect was more well known than your usage). Right up there with Errol Flynn I believe.
Freddie was Eliza Doolittle's boyfriend's name in "My Fair Lady". He sang "On the Street Where You Live", I'm sure you recall?
Sly, the nickname of the so called "actor" who played "Rocky", also Sly and the Family Stone. Surely you've heard of them, they are world famous.
Ol'sly, obviously a British spelling of "Owsley", the chap who produced copious amounts of LSD to fuel the chemical side of the cultural revolution of the 60'.  
Pinks, has several definitions. Pink slips, car titles. Last pay check due to firing. As they say on "Big Bang Theory" refers to certain "Lady Parts". Also slang referring to a branding by Victoria Secrets.  
Thomas, Saint Thomas Aquinas, or Thomas the doubter, follower of Jesus in the Bible. Also a book in the Nag Hammadi library, "Gospel of Thomas". Although not part of the Nag Hammadi Library, one of my favs is "Gospel of Mary Magdalene". I like the part where the disciples are complaining about Jesus spending so much time with Mary. They say, Why are you spending so much time with her, she is a woman, she cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus replies, I will make her a man... The possibilities are endless. I wonder if that is where the rocky Horror Show got that line, and title for that song, "I Can Make You a Man", sung of course by  Frank N. Furter, Janet and and Transylvanians. I'm sure you've sang it before as part of the audience. Who did you dress up as? I'm betting "Dr. Scott."   (Sorry off Topic of Camphor).   


To illustrate the difficulty for the reader when one uses too much provincial/obscure language in a piece of writing (and I removed about half).  

"A conversation with my Father while working in the oilfields."

Well throw some casing head on it and hit it with a sucker-rod, the damn things sucking air, but we don't have time to pull it today. It doesn't make much anyway. Just shut the thing down. We still have to change out the old gun barrel and see if circulating that new chemical through help the VS so they'll take the stuff this time. There's a big blow coming tomorrow I just hope the primaries hold this time.

Yeah, I know, I hate having to stick those things when it's windy and wet.

If they blow I'll call you so you can meet me here.

Gee, thanks!

Did you grease the powerhouse and make sure number 19 is hitting down.

Yeah, but we're gonna hav'ta change out that line 'fore too long, it's almost worn through, or at least a few rods.

That's true, but not today, we already need a bigger plate.

Yeah, but if it breaks, it will throw the power out of balance and burn up that 50 HP motor which will cost a shinny penny. I could come back this evening and change out the worst ones.

I thought you had class tomorrow.

I do but they don't start till noon, but I'll get enough, I'll just have to leave early from out here.

Well OK if you want to. I'll tell Briscoe to come over when he is done and give you a hand, getting that power stopped is more than a one man job.

I've done it before.

Yeah I know you have, but if something should go wrong, there would be no one here to call an ambulance.

OK, I'll wait for Briscoe.
 

Good, I'm off to the North Roller to put some drip in the Witte. I'll probably walk so you won't be able to get a hold of me for awhile, but I should be back before you get to the Body. Hit me on the 2-way and let me know how things are when you get there, I should be back in pocket by then.

Sure, I'll stop by Loyd's and see how Hitler is doing with his bite, and let you know. I can't believe it didn't kill him.

Big dumb dog. Never seen a white German Shepard before. Make sure the light oil reserve on the water pump is full and correctly discharging, those ceramics will break quick if they get too hot, and that is also a pretty penny. Jack has been having trouble keeping it clear, although I suspect the problem is more about Jack than the pump since we never have that problem over here. Make sure he is using the right viscosity. I suspect he is using a heavier because he is too God damn lazy to walk the extra ten feet. I know you don't want to, but I may have to move you to that lease, and pull him over here where I can keep an eye on him. Be sure and change the paper on the chart house first thing when you arrive, so you can check it when you leave.

OK I'll go in the back way, less chance of the scaly guards at the gate.

I've gone over there and a number of times it has not been changed. The output is dropping and it may be because the water-flooding has stopped, but he doesn't know it because he never changes the chart. You still got your snake charmer? Good! I killed one by the gate, and one right by the door of the chart house. Keep an eye out, you know it's shedding season, and they're virtual blind and will strike at anything. Stay safe.

"Hmmm. All is googleable."

For the time being, look up Basil Brush...I think he met an American President (unless he was one, but I don't know much about Americans

I'm back. Yes, the outtake you posted above is esoteric. Full of blurb that though incomprehensible, and certainly would not attract me or encourage me to read on, still manages to convey two things. Firstly, and it can only be an assumption, the writer moves freely in the world he is writing about. As I said, one assumes this to be the case IF you do not have similar expertise sufficient to contradict or rubbish the piece.
Secondly, provided the general tennet of the piece is understood (splice the mainbrace, heave the anchor etc.) one can get through the thing by skimming it.

The Outfoxed piece is not quite in this class, and nor do you say it is, but there ARE words used which may imply, and you obviously assume, that I am right up there tally-hooing for all I'm worth. Good....but not true. The assumption is wrong, the EFFECT is right.
Furthermore, and I am hooked on this Feynman quip (you HAVE heard of Feynman, right? )which goes something like "If you ask a scientist to explain how a magic trick is done, he is as dumb as the next guy".
My point being that scientists still enjoy magic tricks.
The elitist point is a difficult one to fully agree or disagree with with because though you make comment on the "failing" you speak as though you were making a global claim....whereas, in fact, knowlege of a subject is in reverse proportion to how far an individual is removed from  interface with said subject. So you may have an enviable knowledge of raccoon habits and mating calls, sufficient to talk to your peers about with some confidence that they will talk right back...but know bugger all about F1 hybridised rice which is grown over three-quarters of the worlds cultivated land area.
Anyways...to important matter. Texel sheep...are you there Leanne. It was my OWN description of the porcine visage of this breed. Some even LOOK piggy-like in body shape. It is not a general term but one that you would find hard to deny if you saw them in a field. Confession, though. I only used texel to get the "Texels a teaming..." sound byte. I could have gone with "Sheep a shearing..." but you would have larfed, and larfed at me.
I gave up my shotgun when I was 22 years old having witnessed one too many ceremonial slaughters to no good outcome on the Yorkshire Moors of a Boxing Day. The pissy-arsed antics of the Boxing Day shooters led to bouts of great alcohol-induced unfunny humour...whilst all around the hapless grouse fell from the skies in feather-puffed parabolas. I took a view and never went again.
I pluck'em, I cook 'em, I eat'em, I serve them up to friends and I giv'em away because I get given more than I need. Same with pheasants, pigeons, ducks, geese, sometimes venison...not often, though.
I still pop off at rabbits with my old .22 WEIHRAUCH ( it is a gun by a German manufacture OK?) but that's about it.
...and that's about it.
I am still waiting for somebody....anybody...to agree with you...but then I will move us all to the discussion forum, gently close the door, and go off for a quiet Port and a gravadlax sandwich. Elitist? Harrrruumphhh.
Best,
tectak
There are explanatory emoticons missing from this reply as the site seems to think we have used 6 when we are only allowed 3. I cannot find them.