Love Poem

[heslopian]

She is like the churches of my ancestors:
pointed, ornate and Christian,
divorced from the Pagan and Greek,
whose droppings are still smeared
across our English towns.

She is Pugin's dream:
the Palace of Westminster
restored as a tribute to You,
an ancient door leading back to the times
before the Protestants cried out,
forcing us into a spiritual desert.

I'd rather be tortured in a Catholic hell
than live forever in this secular Sodom,
if You would let me see her face
carved on a brimstone spire.

Grace dances through her eyes
like a tortured martyr.
When I saw her last - sheltered by a giant tree,
cradling a book as she read half-aloud,
her lips miming each word,
and her sun-coloured hair
caught in a cage of lace -
I wanted the grace in those eyes
to work a heavenly violence upon me.

If she'd stood and turned around
her gaze, focusing intensity
to a rapier's point,
would have set that tree on fire.
Together we'd have witnessed
a hundred birds exit,
while each branch blackening
became a testament to Your voice,
and I'd have never seen
such a beautiful arson.

[cidermaid]

After first reading I thought :- Nicely understated title, nothing trite or soppy in here. The narrator is expressing a deeply held affection for… But then I had to work out who the “she” & “you” represented before I could even have a go at working out what the love was represented by.
Sorry but as much as I love the read and the emotion you inject in this I was all over the place with working out what it means.
As an overview – I thought that this was a poem lamenting what we (the Uk / Christians) lost in the reformation, in terms of colour and expression of emotion in our faith, and then again deeper still (a desire of the heart torn by love), to have the one true church (The Holy Catholic apostolic church…the simplicity of faith before it was torn apart by splits and schisms. This in tern, came about and is still outworking, because of the divide caused by those who hold with the person, work and equal authority of the Holy Spirit as the third person of the God head, and those who don’t, who prefer the spirit of the law. (but then see also note at end of notes)
I got very confused as I tried to work out the meaning of your poem, I might be totally at odds with what you were thinking when you wrote this. (That’s just me for you – I don’t need drugs or alcohol to be off with the fairies!)
Basically I loved this poem for itself just as a read; I found that I did not need to understand the finer nuances of meaning to feel the emotion of pain, separation and desire. I thought it had a hauntingly beautiful touch of sadness brushed throughout that made the expression of love seem all the more real. I have read it through several times just because I like it so much.

I’m not sure I want to work as hard as I have, to untangle the meaning of a poem. (But having said that I love and value it even more for the gems I have found in my excavations!) I appreciate that as the first commentator I might be unmasking myself as a fool and everyone else will say “fancy not knowing or seeing that”; meanwhile back in planet ciderland, the fool needs to work this out, so I’ve done my best to give a line by line of where your words take my thoughts and I will await any other comments with interest to see what I have missed.

She is like the churches of my ancestors: A historical figure that the narrator is offering a love lament for. The Church reference at this stage, makes me thing of something solid and enduring.
pointed, ornate and Christian, Pretty and to be admired and yet also untouchable (because of the points). At this point I’m not sure if the Christian is a individual (historical) person remembered or a collective reference to people of faith. (Re- Church/es)
divorced from the Pagan and Greek,
whose droppings are still smeared
across our English towns. An emotion of disgust, distance and contempt for anything pre-christian. Sense of affection for “English town”
Ok so although I’m not sure at this stage who the “she” is (English architecture, or faith perhaps). She is pre-reformation, post pre-Christian and has a English Identity or association.


She is Pugin's dream: Pugin – Ok research time to find out the reference to the “dream”. I had to check it was not some female infatuation that I was missing. Sadly nothing as salacious as that: This is what I dug up - English architect, artist and designer, 1812–1852. Remembered for his passionate, pioneering role in the Gothic Revival designs. He was architect for many churches and is perhaps most noted for his interior re-design on the palace of Westminster. He hated the sterile church of his upbringing (Scottish Presbyterian) – he preferred the bells and smells version (His dream – a pre-reformation England). From these I put a spiritual overlay of his ideals and got:-
Pugin believed the good in a society was reflected in the architecture of a period in society; the better the architecture the better the society and thus as he thought that gothic / medieval architecture was the best architecture, he therefore felt that the medieval age was the better than that which he lived in and that we should try and re-create this period. (starting with the architecture). From a spiritual viewpoint, this translated itself into good works within a society and his faith was based on the efforts made by individuals in a society to “improve” their society. This good works was then naturally outworks through faith within the confines of the establish church, which in turn became the focus of his efforts for good works in his designs.



restored as a tribute to You, Strongest indicator that God is the “You” (capital Y) But as Pugin is most celebrated for his work at Westminster, this therefore could be taken as a representation of the law and anti – church led faith movement. (It could also therefore be suggestive of anti Holy Spirit, therefore anti supreme God, and thus pro- the “new and approved” government sponsored law of faith, as represented by Westminster – as established by the roundheads and thus protestants). …or are we talking about Queen Victoria! – Victoria’s tower, (at one end and Elisabeth’s at the other with the spire in the middle) was in its day the tallest tower and was built as a tribute to the towering significance of her reign.
(It’s all getting very confused in Ciderland!)

an ancient door leading back to the times (See what I mean…confused you will be!) …Or, is this the Papish door to a of form of governance that would set itself up as supreme ruler to rule and reign over the subjects as near God. (and historically has been largely against the Holy Spirit) as represented by the Catholic Church.
before the Protestants cried out, But at least I've definably identified that It is definatly a catholic narrative voice who is anti protestant…
forcing us into a spiritual desert. …for their brutal paths that led to sterile faith as represented by the spiritual desert. (a echo Pugin’s childhood experiences of faith).



I'd rather be tortured in a Catholic hell The pain and sadness of the sense of separation comes through.
than live forever in this secular Sodom, secular = government so anti government perhaps. But def anti post reformation faith and as such anti protestant. I read this as a distress of the co-habiting of faith and secular to the point where the two are indistinguishable. (as in the next line where the face of the beloved has been removed)
if You would let me see her face
carved on a brimstone spire. I read as a remark against the sense of anti Catholic emotion in the nation – let me live in Catholic hell (as awful as I understand it to be) and perhaps see my beloveds face carved on the (in your opinion) “brimstone” inspired designs of our spires, rather than face another homogenised, sterile day in your protestant, law filled land.

Grace dances through her eyes Now my problems increase in the final two stanzas. How do I tie up grace to a tortured martyr. Grace is a gift, to be myrtered is an obedience (out of love). Also is the grace in / because of, the person whose eyes it is working through or is this a picture of grace (as a gift of the Holy spirit) at work in a larger sense. As in the grace of the person and life work of queen Victoria – or is this the collective grace upon the church as worked out in the good works of faith.
like a tortured martyr.
When I saw her last - sheltered by a giant tree, Oh no! There is another thing I can’t get a hold of. What or who is the tree representing. The tree of faith from which the church (holy) has been birthed. A representation of the government / law. Both of these have branches and reach to shelter. (Oh and she has now been taken from view – dead or a missing person
cradling a book as she read half-aloud, Completely lost here, cradling as in giving birth to. The word of God, the ordinances of the law of the land or she as in Victoria who is nurturing the newly emergant spiritual and undustrial age of new growth.
her lips miming each word, Hang on, whilst sheltering the heroine is only paying lip service to the benefits of the tree.
and her sun-coloured hair
caught in a cage of lace - ? these two lines = architectural features of Westminster or a physical likeness to Victoria’s hair in a lace bun...or some other as yet unidentified personality
I wanted the grace in those eyes
to work a heavenly violence upon me. ! What heavenly violence, that of the soul in that you wish you could join the ranks of the martyrs or you fancy a bit of sm (perhaps whilst tied to a tree!)…sorry I think I’m loosing it.

If she'd stood and turned around The elements of the meaning are lost because I am still unable to define who the key charicters in the poem are to represent. If faith, the law or queen Victoria had …
her gaze, focusing intensity
to a rapier's point, ? am I back to contemplations of the finer points of the architecture of Westminster or the cutting edge of Victoria’s tongue or the blade of the law.
would have set that tree on fire. That blasted tree again – it would appear that the tree represents a bad thing that is deserving of being burnt..except that “she” was sheltering under it at one point or is this some other tree of the narrators desire of his loves personality, that is to be set aflame with passion?
Together we'd have witnessed Who? Because i'm down to the last lines and i still havn't worked out who the main players are :-God / the law / and the narrator, or the love, Victoria, faith and the narrator
a hundred birds exit, These birds?…who are they then. Perhaps the rest of the people in the church or the nation, or even politicians that exit when they have been found out. (in the flames of scandal)
while each branch blackening Ok yep something to understand it is The branches of the organisation / group under discussion.( whoever that might be)
became a testament to Your voice, Lost again; is this the “you” voice as in God’s voice or the “she” voice as in….one of the many I could choose from. It's begining to feel like a multiple choice poem
and I'd have never seen
such a beautiful arson. The tree was set on fire deliberatly!, both the narrator and the loved wanted the tree burnt down...I don't understand!

(Is this poem some obscure reference to the film about the tree of life…supposedly to represent a Catholic family – I don’t know I’m reduced to wild guessing – but having just found a reference to it in my searching to discover that the mother is the avatar of Grace personified and the young man, (who happens to be an architect), is oppressed and angered by his fathers’ faith. The theological heart of the film is that both nature and grace are part of his providential design of God. Perhaps I have found the link and a tie up between Catholicism, a tree and some woman or other ...so it would appear that this poem needs a link for me to watch the film or I should at least read the film reviews before I can access the meaning, because without this knowledge I was completly lost. Ps the film reviews were actually quite humorous and derisive in their panning of the film)

This poem is a definate near hit for me. I found the subject gripped me and I quite enjoyed the journey that all my research took me on..but really poetry should not be this hard in my book. I hope you do some edits on this as I do really like it a lot even as it is.

Hope this long ramble will give you some insight into where your readers might need a little help
All the best AJ.

[Magpie]

Hi Heslopian,

I read your poem yesterday and was fascinated by the imagery as well as the feelings that it stirred within. I confess I have not come anywhere as close as Cidermaid in deciphering the meaning and I am extremely impressed with the information that she managed to come up with.
But even without fully understanding the meaning, it still managed to move me with it's almost biblical apocalyptic imagery and then the surprising last line.
One day I may get good enough to offer some more serious critique but for the moment I'll just say thanks for the read, and I look forward to reading the explanation.

Cheers AR

[heslopian]

Not everything is a symbol, cidermaid, at least not to a crude, graceless craftsman like me Sometimes a bird is just a bird, and a tree is just a tree, though the tree in this poem is based on Christian/Catholic imagery, like God speaking to Moses through a burning bush. It was also inspired by a tree in Flannery O'Connor's short story "Parker's Back", which catches on fire when a spiritually lost man crashes a tractor against it.
Terrence Malick's film The Tree of Life (which I assume you're referring to) never crossed my mind while I was writing. I haven't even seen it.
The only players in this poem are the narrator, the woman he loves and God, who's "You" and only "You". To distinguish between God and the other players I capitalised "You". The narrator is a devout Catholic in 19th-century England who's been impressed by the Gothic revival and Pugin. I've been studying Pugin for my arts course, and his distaste for classical architecture (i.e. Greek), which he considered un-English and Pagan, informs my narrator's viewpoint, at least in the poem's first half. Because the narrator loves the woman intensely he associates her with his faith and pre-Reformation England, which as a devout Catholic he idealises, while despising the Protestant ascendancy.
The poem is basically about a devout 19th-century Catholic who loves a woman and talks to God about that love. Thank you for your incredibly detailed and intense analysis, cidermaid It's appreciated.

---

Thank you for your kind feedback, ambrosial revelation Don't be afraid of serious critique; whatever you can offer, so long as it says something and is based on what you truly think, is enough. I know what you mean, though. I sometimes look at other people's comments, then back at my own, and mine seem so meagre. But all honest and serious feedback counts, and it's about quality, not quantity.

[Cody Phoenix]

The imagery and unique choice of your vocabulary was very interesting and captivated me as a reader, I enjoyed the topic choice and the metaphoric approach behind the writing, the emotion was solid and the vibe was really strong, great read and awesome poetry. Really thought provoking to say the least! I can only echo what those before me said.

[billy]

the poem has some beautiful images jack, some of the phrasing is extremely good. it's one of those "i wish I'd wrote it" poems but it lacks a connection. the great words are hiding something away from the reader.
it would take between 5 and ten words to to bring this poem into something really exquisite. preferably at the beginning of it all the lines are better than good. it just need a couple more to act as the key.

thanks for the read.

She is like the churches of my ancestors: i love this line but need instant gratification as to who is 'she'?
pointed, ornate and Christian,
divorced from the Pagan and Greek,
whose droppings are still smeared
across our English towns.

She is Pugin's dream: are we on about the architectural artist? so the 'she' is a church?
the Palace of Westminster
restored as a tribute to You, okay, so the you isn't a church.
an ancient door leading back to the times
before the Protestants cried out,
forcing us into a spiritual desert. i wondered if dessert would have given it a bit of lightness, though perhaps not

I'd rather be tortured in a Catholic hell
than live forever in this secular Sodom,
if You would let me see her face
carved on a brimstone spire. the her of the poem, i'd like to have seen her by now.

Grace dances through her eyes
like a tortured martyr.
When I saw her last - sheltered by a giant tree,
cradling a book as she read half-aloud,
her lips miming each word,
and her sun-coloured hair
caught in a cage of lace -
I wanted the grace in those eyes
to work a heavenly violence upon me. bloody marvellously beautiful...who is she?

If she'd stood and turned around
her gaze, focusing intensity
to a rapier's point,
would have set that tree on fire. to much like one of the xmen
Together we'd have witnessed
a hundred birds exit,
while each branch blackening
became a testament to Your voice,
and I'd have never seen
such a beautiful arson.

[heslopian]

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful feedback, Cody Phoenix

---

Thank you for your kind and honest feedback, Bilbo You've articulated something that I hadn't, quite, though it's concerned me: I never described the woman. And she is a woman, not a church or a symbol for anything like that. She's Pugin's (the 19th-century architect) dream because she represents a resurgance of Christian beauty, like a human reflection of the Gothic revival, not because loads of clergymen have been inside her I like your note about the X-men Pugin meets Sue Storm... "You", by the way, is God, who the poem is addressed to. Thanks again for your feedback!

[billy]

have you though about using the title to give just a little bit more about her. it does work well with the explanation .

[knicodemus3]

Hi,

I am a newbie and I don't even know if I am suppose to be posting on these poems, but I liked this one and had a few comments especially after reading the awesome critiques of others. First, I may be simple-minded in that I figured right off you were describing a real woman in the poem, and as I progressed through the first two stanzas, it seemed unlikely that a physical church or place could encompass all you described. Instead, I read it as a woman who reminds you of the faith that once was (first stanza) and also a purer love for God strangulated by current practices (second stanza). I really liked the phrase "restored to You" and the ancient door reference; I had the image of a woman solely devoted to her perception of God in light of whatever is the current accepted notion of Him. Second, the third stanza confused me slightly when you said "THIS secular Sodom." It made me feel you were separated from her at the time, as if she was violently removed from you or something of the sort. But I had to conclude I was wrong about that interpretation because there was no further explanation of your current separation from her. Ultimately, if you are separated from her and it feels like Sodom, some more description or a better transition could be used. Last, I was a little thrown by the phrasing "Grace dances through her eyes." The tortured martyr addition reminds me of Stephen's face shining while he forgives the people stoning him. I don't know if that was a similar scene you were trying to portray. But I didn't know if you meant when your eyes meet hers grace passes to you in a dancing fashion, or if you meant when you look at her you can see through her eyes into her soul and you see grace dancing there. Overall, I think it was magnificent work of art that really shows a man reflecting on being in a love triangle between the woman of his dreams, himself and God. Thanks for letting me read!

[heslopian]

You are supposed to be commenting on these poems, or at least we encourage you to whenever you can and feel like it, knicodemus3. Thank you for your very thorough, kind and, above all, helpful feedback