about rhyme.

[billy]

aish said in another thread...and i quoteth her "Fuck's sake. I don't even like rhyme "

from what i see, rhyme seems to take a back to non rhyming poetry as far as decent quality poetry is concerned, in general much of the stuff I've read from the last two or decades has been blank verse, or almost blank verse along with a fair bit of free verse. while i have read a lot of rhymed stuff, it's the former two that seem prevalent. is there a reason why we moved away to far from verse as to make seem foppish or old-hat.
it could just be, i'm not as well read as i should be but it's what i see.

[rowens]

People are too afraid of sounding silly. It's a trend in smart people culture to condemn rhyme. I remember in the '90s, when people mentioned record players, the popular comment was "What's a record player?" People rebelled against rhyme, but now those people are old and sound rigid too. So people rhyme again.

I don't like rhyme because my brain is fucked up, and rhyming gets stuck in my head to the point of nightmare. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with it. Most of my poems have rhymes and near rhymes anyway.

[billy]

i enjoy good verse. and it's i know it's old onion to say i like all poetry if it's well constructed.
i think one of the reasons people right blank or free verse, is that it looks easier/ i think that's the case for free verse where meter and rhyme don't play a part. but blank verse still utilizes the meter. a lot who think they're writing blank verse are writing free verse. but that said neither are rhyming so it doesn't matter in comparing them rhyme. i think some enjoy an alleged freedom, blank and free verse allows. less constraint etc. there are those who use it, because they struggle to write unforced rhyme; i know i struggle in laying a good rhyme poem down. I also think that those new to poetry think it's more hip to write in a less formal style. calling bad rhyming poetry hall mark (something i've done many times) also plays a part in making rhyme seem cheesy. (i have stopped using that phrase now)

i do think rhymed verse is an excellent tool for training yourself re meter and the subtleties of rhyme and rhythm. i also thing training aside, there are some brilliant poetry written with rhymes.

[Aish]

aish said in another thread...and i quoteth her "Fuck's sake. I don't even like rhyme "

from what i see, rhyme seems to take a back to non rhyming poetry as far as decent quality poetry is concerned, in general much of the stuff I've read from the last two or decades has been blank verse, or almost blank verse along with a fair bit of free verse. while i have read a lot of rhymed stuff, it's the former two that seem prevalent. is there a reason why we moved away to far from verse as to make seem foppish or old-hat.
it could just be, i'm not as well read as i should be but it's what i see.

Ding dong damn, Billy, you caught me :angel:

Once I was past Dr. Seuss and Shel Silverstein I discovered Lord Byron, who I was completely enthralled with. I found other classics, of corpse. I still adore reading them, and have happened across some well turned modern form here.
That being said, I personally have a huge, horrible hangup regarding rhyme. In general it's tedious, predictable, and in too many cases sickeningly sing-songy. I have a personal bias against raw subjects such as rape, incest, abuse, suicide, genocide, etc being described in contrived AB repetition.

There's my uneducated panties on the floor. Enjoy.

[billy]

i thought the idea was to make be uncontrived,
i do admit a rape sonnet would sound a little off
also, wouldn't the sing songy stuff come from the meter?
blank verse is sing songy because it's based on iambic pantyteeter
whereas free verse is pretty much as we speak.

i will be honest and say i agree with you that certain subjects suck when done in formal verse. there are exceptions though and some good war and death poetry is out there floating about amongst the rhymed stuff.

[rowens]

The outside context of the poem is important sometimes. To explain within the poem might diminish the effect. The rhyme, the meter, the rules of poetry and the rules of language, and the subject; sometimes the poem itself doesn't address its intent with these uses. It's important to have the poem do all it can on its own, but sometimes you hear the writer introducing the poem, and that lets you get it. And lots of famous poems probably wouldn't be popular today if not for critics and biographies that address second-hand aspects about the poem, that put it in perspective. Even some complex explanation why someone rhymed or didn't rhyme can add to the importance of a work in our culture.

[Todd]

Rhyme is like everything else, when it's done right I love it. Those are usually the poems where I don't notice it at first. I rarely use end rhymes, but in some cases reaching for the right rhyme has put me in a different mindset and improved the poem. We all have comfortable tricks we use to get the poem on the page, and while I understand the contempt for bad rhyme I don't want to sacrifice the tool because of its misuse. I like the resonance it can add.

[Leanne]

I could make a comment on what I think about people who automatically "hate rhyme", but then you'd have to move it to the Pig's Arse...

[billy]

i find it ironic that both types of poetry have the same problems and virtues. mainly that if you don't write a good poem, the poem will suck hairy balls. to address leanne's point, i think many people say "i hate rhyme" instead of "i never write in rhyme" ask some of the haters what their favourite poem is and they'd say;
the charge of the light brigade
she walks in beauty, or a multitude of other rhymed poems. since coming to poetry i've discovered that not only is rhyme a more than valid transport for poetry but it's one of the best training tools for learning the craft of poetry. i see rhyme in it's own right as a poetic style but much much more i see it as a stepping stone to all the other styles of poetry. another thing about rhyme hater's is the fact that many who don't do end rhyme, use internal rhyme. to dismiss rhyme in poetry is like dismissing a coat in clothing. rhyme is a poetic device that when used properly is a thing of great beauty and dexterity. so is alliteration, metaphor and allusion to name just a few. to dismiss rhyme so easily is like cutting off a fucking thumb (metaphorically speaking) to spite a finger.

[Aish]

ask some of the haters what their favourite poem is and they'd say;
the charge of the light brigade
she walks in beauty, or a multitude of other rhymed poems.

My two favorite poems are "Sun Artery Rupture" by Peter Diaz and "Tantra" by Sumeet Panigrahi (even though it shouldn't be) and neither of them rhyme.

While I concede that rhyme can be done well, and I have stingily expressed gratitude for those that do (some of which I have found here), I do not personally embrace it. I am guilty of ceasing to read rhyming pieces simply because the kiddie song immediately produced in my head grates on my nerves. I am guilty of rhyming myself, a fair while ago, for a comp. Didn't like it then, either. Personal bias.

[TwistedAngel]

hmm the age old (zzzzzzzzz) question..havin thought about should poetry rhyme or not an read (actually started to read then got bored an gave up) arguments by various writing experts ..i come to the conclusion...i dont care

a good write is a good write an as poetry is a art then it should not have any rules otherwise it just gets stuffy an staid

that said some writing does have rules..sonnets an haiku the skill in writing these is writing somthing real within the rules

english haiku is 5-7-5 (some boffin dudes sat down an agreed this) now they say as long as it just 17 sillybubbles...personnaly i say gimme 5-7-5 anythin else is tryin to pass off a mule as a horse

[Keith]

aish said in another thread...and i quoteth her "Fuck's sake. I don't even like rhyme "

from what i see, rhyme seems to take a back to non rhyming poetry as far as decent quality poetry is concerned, in general much of the stuff I've read from the last two or decades has been blank verse, or almost blank verse along with a fair bit of free verse. while i have read a lot of rhymed stuff, it's the former two that seem prevalent. is there a reason why we moved away to far from verse as to make seem foppish or old-hat.
it could just be, i'm not as well read as i should be but it's what i see.

I'm not sure, who decideds what is decent quality poetry and who writes it ?.....if you were to ask my son's this, the answer would be Snoop Dog and Alex Turner (Arctic Monkeys) because songs and Rap, rhym therefore, they are poems. They would say Blank verse is clever poetry and appreciate it for this reason but their reference will always be good song lyrics. So, maybe one reason to move away from verse would be to distance one's self from songs.
I belive Rhym is on the assendance due to poeple like Alex Turner (modern day poet) Elvis costello (latterday poet) and there should be room at the inn for all. Maybe this is bollocks.

[billy]

maybe but mayabe not.
artists don't say mmm i think i'll just use the red paint (until they've learnt about all the other coloured paints.)
or writers...I know let's just use the latters a and c acacacacacacacacac i think it fair enough that we all have a preference, it's what makes us different after all. but we don't just have the one one voice, we all have many. one for love, one for telling the kids off, one for supporting a team. i just prefer to know about as many voices as i can, just in case i want to say something in a different one.

---

hmm the age old (zzzzzzzzz) question..havin thought about should poetry rhyme or not an read (actually started to read then got bored an gave up) arguments by various writing experts ..i come to the conclusion...i dont care

a good write is a good write an as poetry is a art then it should not have any rules otherwise it just gets stuffy an staid

that said some writing does have rules..sonnets an haiku the skill in writing these is writing somthing real within the rules

english haiku is 5-7-5 (some boffin dudes sat down an agreed this) now they say as long as it just 17 sillybubbles...personnaly i say gimme 5-7-5 anythin else is tryin to pass off a mule as a horse

the question isn't about should poetry rhyme, it's about whether or not we've moved away from rhyme and if so, why?
as for art not needing rules, not only does art need rules, it creates rules in order to present itself. you have to know how paint works to be a painter,
how notes works, to be a musician.
how text works, to be a poet

i say gimme 5-7-5 anythin else is tryin to pass off a mule as a horse

actually the 575 is the thing passing off a mule as a horse. it's a western concept that has no bearing in japanese writing (which is where the form comes from)

sonnets and the like...all mules dressed as horse, but isn't that the point, to adapt and change and create. how can we change something if we have little or no concept of what the fuck it is we want to change?

"i prefer to write outside the box?" well that all fine and dandy but how does one write outside the box, if they don't know what the box looks like, how can they de-construct the box if they don't know the mechanics of it?

i'm not saying write in rhyme or write in free or blank verse. i'm just curious as to why rhyme is a virus to many who are new to poetry? i just think the only thing they see is their own ego. "look at how good i am writing without rhyme" the truth is often "no you're not" or "that's because you haven't a clue as to how to write in meter and rhyme and if you did you're poetry would suck more hairy balls than your free verse does"

not that i've had a lot of experience with poetry but in general someone whose well versed in all aspects of what they do will beat the shit out of those who are one trick mules, or ponies, or, horses, i think if we dismiss rhyme, we're playing with a triangle instead of the full drum-kit.
We are what we know, We are not what we think we know.

[rowens]

I think some people find that rhyme comes too naturally, and they mistakenly think that that means it's too easy, and trite. Some people can rhyme all day, it feels easy. But in that case, rhyming is easy, but poetry has more to it. And if you are somewhat of an intellectual, reading and listening to many Twentieth century writers moulds your thinking to their authority regarding the "oldness" of rhyming poetry. In some sense it's an attitude of rebellion; in some sense it's a feeling of being above those that only know about rhyming poetry; though I don't think people are as generally ignorant of un-rhyming poetry as many young people think. And you cut yourself short if you deny yourself rhyme for those impersonal, second-hand reasons. I have personal reasons for having issues with rhyme, but those don't stop me from using rhyme to have it out with my personal issues and to write for others.

I get annoyed by the post-structural emphasis of the 'text' over the Author. And I play around with that, by taking the words and signs and symbols as literal, living realities. And so I don't have so much a problem with rhyming, as with forcing what's not necessary. And there are times that I find rhyme very necessary.

[billy]

hall mark poets can rhyme all week and often people will love that kind of poetry but it pop poetry, it's devoid of personality and depth. but that's also part of the cliche gangs that roam the poetry ruts. good is good and bad is bad. often we can move from bad to better by trying out new stuff. trying the rhyme or the concrete or the flarf it's the variety of forms and styles that should fill a poets quiver.

[Leanne]

Rhyme or no rhyme, if you're doing exactly what everyone else is doing, you're not writing poetry. You're churning out shite.

[billy]

yes but is rhyming shite better .

i totally agree,
is that where the "own voice" thing comes in? i think writing shite is the best starting point. but you have to want to write better and realise that you're not that great poet you think you (in general) unless of course you don't care how you write and just do it to pass the time away.

[Leanne]

Nobody's ever as good as they think they are. If you close yourself off to the possibility of learning anything more, you'll always be left behind -- and it's usually at a point of being utter crap anyway, so maybe we're better off leaving those types stuck where they are

It's damn near impossible to find a way to speak with your own voice in a language you're not familiar with. The more facility you have with the mechanics and possibilities of poetry, the more you'll be able to break rules and innovate (not just think you're breaking rules because you haven't bothered to find out what they are in the first place).

In my experience, learning the techniques and structure of form poetry never fails to improve a poet, regardless of whether they choose to write freeverse later or not. Similarly, people who only ever rhyme and never try to write a poem without that form skeleton to hold it together don't properly appreciate the difficulty of writing really good freeverse. I confess I don't understand why people who call themselves poets would ignore the possibilities offered by all different kinds of poetry -- it's like only drinking one kind of wine for the rest of your life, and that's a horrible thought

[billy]

i know rhymes helped me get better. for one it help when i write any blank verse because rhyme is often meter driven,
therefore the flow of my blank verse is much better than it was, nowhere near perfect mind but small steps is what i'm aiming for.

[Leanne]

small steps still get you where you're going, and the risk of falling is a hell of a lot less