how do you dissect or study a poem

[billy]

in order to give constructive critique or feedback?

for an age or more i've struggled trying to decipher lots of poems, only to fail or get it terribly wrong. i do what i think is a glowing bit of feedback only to end up knowing i was miles away from what it was or what it was saying. some here are great at finding an insight or theme but i usually miss what the core of a poem is all about. so how do you understand a poem?

[Leanne]

It's definitely a skill that has to be practised, billy. First, I read a poem at least twice, more often five or six times to get the feel of the whole thing. Then it's at least another two close readings (for most poems, although some are pretty simple and don't really require that much interpretation). I look for specific word choices, how the language interacts to build meaning, how clear that meaning is to me and whether it needs a bit of a key from the writer so that it can be unlocked -- this is the case with a lot of very personal poems, the meaning is obvious to the writer but there are no hints for anyone else, it's more of an inside joke situation.

Every choice in a poem should be deliberate. You have so few words to play with, such a little time to make an impact, that the tiniest things make a difference. Sometimes a poem's effect can hinge on something as small as a line break.

There are obviously preferences and things that I bring to a reading, but I try to be as objective as possible. That way, even if I don't particularly like a poem, I can still read and critique it.

[billy]

whether it needs a bit of a key from the writer so that it can be unlocked -- this is the case with a lot of very personal poems, the meaning is obvious to the writer but there are no hints for anyone else, it's more of an inside joke situation.

can these types of poetry be deciphered? i'm usually okay with a narrative poem. for me it's the metaphorical stuff that passes me by. like you i read a piece more than once or twice. sometimes i get frustrated because i don't get it. normally i look for a key word or phrase and work backwards.

[Leanne]

Yes, they can. Your meaning might not be the same as the writer's though, and that should be ok with any decent writer. We need to understand that nobody has the same experiences and set of cultural understandings that we do. However, that is no excuse for being deliberately obscure. Readers shouldn't be closed out of a text by a set of purely personal codes. Poems aren't riddles.

[billy]

what about asking question of the poet before doing a critique or giving feedback, would that be fair or should it be a no no? i do agree about deliberate misdirection. i can't see a point to it.

[Leanne]

I don't think it's a good idea to ask anything of the poet before your honest opinion is given -- anything the poet tells you will prejudice your reading.

I do think it's fair to initiate discussion afterward, though. Then it's up to the poet to decide how much they give away, but open and forthright discussion is how change comes about.

[billy]

though i asked the question about asking the question, I prefer not to ask the poet anything because i think in doing so i'd be tainted with their thoughts about the thing. on odd occasions i've left a poem because it was just too hard to decipher it.

[elliottsmith]

I think poems/songs can have different meaning to everyone who reads/listens to them. If you take a picture of New York City, one person who looks at it might think it looks really depressing and frightening. Whereas another person might look at it, and think about all the fun things you can do in New York. To the reader, it shouldn't really matter what the poet had in mind when writing the poem. All that matters is the feeling/meaning each reader takes away from the poem IMO.

When giving constructive feedback, obviously if you interpret someone's poem in a different way than the poet it can be hard to give advice.

[rowens]

I'm new to workshops. I've thought and wrote a lot about this subject in notebooks, for my personal use. But to specify workshop atmospheres, I think you should assume the poem is finished and every element of it is important, and then give your interpretation. If the poet disagrees, either the poet has to fix what doesn't work well: as an example, my poem "Nervous Cough" led people to a religious conclusion that was stronger than I intended, to the point where I found it necessary to change it. Or the poet can tell you enough information to see if you can accept the poem or not. One thing is allusions, and the metaphors and other aspects that rely on allusions. If I wrote a poem about a character or situation from Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events, and you haven't read that entire book series (which is itself composed of endless allusions to other books) then you won't get it; but if you're interested enough, it might incite a passion for these other books, and ideas. So a poem can challenge you, and send you on an adventure through literature, philosophy, psychology, religion, etc., and cultural or personal worldviews and experiences. I personally enjoy this process, and love poems that challenge and push me onto new warm paths, that make my life itself feel more solid and capable of handling what might otherwise be situations too strange and impossible for me to live through. That said, I don't enjoy art for art's sake. I like poems that both communicate through a personal level, and open possibilities for spiritual breakthroughs on small or great levels. And for me, Spirit is a life energy produced from the friction between feeling I have a soul while knowing I'm just a self conscious object in a finite world of constant change and mutations. That's what I think.

[billy]

I think poems/songs can have different meaning to everyone who reads/listens to them. If you take a picture of New York City, one person who looks at it might think it looks really depressing and frightening. Whereas another person might look at it, and think about all the fun things you can do in New York. To the reader, it shouldn't really matter what the poet had in mind when writing the poem. All that matters is the feeling/meaning each reader takes away from the poem IMO.

When giving constructive feedback, obviously if you interpret someone's poem in a different way than the poet it can be hard to give advice.

is the poet failing though, if everyone gets what he intended to say wrong?

at least when looking the pic of new youk most would say..oh yes, that's new york and give their opinion on what new york is.

---

I'm new to workshops. I've thought and wrote a lot about this subject in notebooks, for my personal use. But to specify workshop atmospheres, I think you should assume the poem is finished and every element of it is important, and then give your interpretation. If the poet disagrees, either the poet has to fix what doesn't work well: as an example, my poem "Nervous Cough" led people to a religious conclusion that was stronger than I intended, to the point where I found it necessary to change it. Or the poet can tell you enough information to see if you can accept the poem or not.

i do think (specially in the serious crit and feedback forum) that the poem should be as finished as possible when posted. then we all give our feedback. it's then as you say, when the writer has to study their own poem to see what or if it needs revising. one of my problems is; i often don't see what the poet wanted me too and therefore i'm partially hog tied. sometimes it even worse. do i walk a way from a poem i have no clue about? or do i say...i didn't understand it. in doing the latter and getting a reply from the poet, am i not depriving them of their POV by having the poet taint any perceptions they may have had?

[Leanne]

I disagree, billy. I don't think there's any need for a poem to be close to finished when it's posted in Serious Critique - we've said plenty of times that Serious doesn't mean it has to be a brilliant poem, it's the quality of feedback that you expect. If someone's got a draft they're working on, even just the germ of an idea that they're happy to get intensive feedback about, they shouldn't be worried about posting it. This is a workshop, after all. The point is to share what we know with each other so that we all improve. Personally I only put poems in Serious Critique that I'm still working on and want detailed feedback. If it's already finished, it goes in Miscellaneous or somewhere, so that people don't waste effort on something that I don't have any burning need to work on. Either that, or I'll showcase it somewhere else.

[billy]

i'll just shut the fuck up then ...

i do see you're point and agree with it. (look at me back peddling like a circus act) of course it's a workshop environment and should be treated as such. i think i was trying to refer to some poems that have been put in serious that need much more than workshopping (without trying to sound cruel). sadly that type of poem is often so easily understood as to push any one giving serious crit or feedback a hard time. it doesn't happen often but it does happen. so i hang my head in shame and slowly exit left......

[Leanne]

Your ideas about what poems belong in Serious Critique are based on you being very much nicer than I am . It's true that some people, probably used to the touchy-feely uselessness of other sites, assume that they're going to get a similar backpat here and maybe think that Serious Critique just means they'll get a more lengthy compliment. When they are subject to actual critique it can be a bit of a shock, and they forget (or never bother to find out) that here we criticise the poem, NOT the poet. A gentle warning that posting in Serious Critique will actually result in serious critique, with an option to have the poem moved, is almost always offered if we get a chance -- well, by you anyway, because (remember from earlier) you're very much nicer than I am...

All new members need to read our information on where to post poems to choose the right forum, because once they're posted, feedback will be given according to the guidelines of each individual forum.

[rowens]

The reader isn't responsible for the writer, as far as I can see. When I talk about writing a lot about understanding in notebooks, I mean understanding things in different ways, and I can use those ideas in poems, and I write about different ways my own poems can be understood from my own point of view. One person, in himself, can have different points of view about the same thing at the same time. As reader and as writer. And new ideas and feelings can surface.

Did you mean tainting a perception the writer might have had that would have been acceptable to other readers too if the critic hadn't misunderstood and made the writer change it? In that case, the writer was uncertain enough to allow that to happen, for better or worse. And the writer must not feel very strongly about his original intention. Or in the case of the poem I mentioned earlier, I wanted that specific poem to carry a more specific message, and had been sensitive about the last lines myself. More liked it than didn't like it, but I felt they may have liked it for reasons that I wasn't pleased with; and I made the choice to change it. I was able to formulate the lines I removed, into another poem that shared more room for the effect they seemed to be having. While other poems I want the critics to tear apart, even though I'm happy with it as it is. "Solid" is a word I read a lot here, and I think that has a nice feeing; but I like some poems to have a more fluid flow, where the writer's point of view is there, but it's limited because the poet isn't reflecting but talking out of the moment. That's not to say that it's stream of consciousness, automatic writing, because it's not.

Usually you can find enough about a person's mindset from the types of expressions and opinions he addresses. And you can narrow down his experience, at least enough in relation to the poem in question, to find the thought patterns he's working with, and the appropriate emotional responses, and system of logical connections the work is founded on. The fact that you can't always do that should be an inspiring thing; that your work as a critic has not become obsolete. And frustration and confusion can be very inspiring. As challenge and conflict are.