Obsession Over If

[arbil_poieo]

If the world had been expected,
she wouldn't have cried.
if time had a form,
she wouldn't have ignored it.

When breathing took time
after she couldn't catch it.
exercising inhaling-exhaling
it has been settled to a notion.

Does it make her broken?

If obvious kept it's meaning,
she would have stayed near.
if love would of been,
she wouldn't of wanted.

She knows her skin
enough to know
that it had been tainted
fingerprints can be evidence.

If innocence would have begged her,
she wouldn't have left.
if faith would of had purpose,
she would have been saved.

She brings hindsight
with her when she sleeps,
and when she sleeps
she dreams it.

Does it make her broken?

If anything would have been visible,
she wouldn't have taken her eyes off of it.
if destiny would have been friendly,
she wouldn't have been scared.

She was disavowed from the world.
existing upon it-she's no longer in it.
though she clasped the earth once
she stands on her toes to barely feel it.

If it just had been a thought,
would she still be thinking?
if she had truly knew it,
would she have known it?

She knows, she has to know
knowing is not always knowledge.
sometimes it is a place and a time
and when it happens, it is a memory.

Does this make her broken?

[Leanne]

I'm just on my way out and can't give this the attention it deserves at the minute, I'll get back to it. First impressions -- love the title, and there are some good lines but I suspect I'll recommend chopping a few out when I return

[tectak]

[quote='arbil_poieo' pid='99452' dateline='1342415555']
If the world had been expected,
she wouldn't have cried.
if time had a form,
she wouldn't have ignored it.aAllow me to do a stanza by stanza on this one, rather than a line by line. There is something wasted in this piece which is a pity. This opener relies to a degree upon concrete statements.....almost an exercise in Boolean algebra, IF (condition=true), THEN( output=true). The problem begins when the alternative, IF NOT, is accomodated but dismissed. (Look, this is poetry you old fool, leave it alone). Sorry, but the imbalance of the equation leaves me wanting a more substantial IF NOT than crying or ignoring. These are BIG issues. Unexpected world (not what she thought it would be?) and time with form (substance?)......I would be wailing, destitute, unconsolable then on the phone to Brian Cox.

When breathing took time
after she couldn't catch it.
exercising inhaling-exhaling
it has been settled to a notion....and this is probably what is troubling me. There are seismic shifts in important conceptions which are not being givena long enough gestation. This stanza is a premature verse. I like it so much that I want it to be perfect in every way. Could you see this as the first stanza? Naturally, with punctuation corrected and clarity enhanced in the last line.

Does it make her broken?What it? What it? Like my comment, so your line. Unnecessary contrivance. It doesn't work for me because rhetorical questions IMPLY the answer which they beg. Yes or NO both work here and so you have not yet made your arguement/point/case clear.
If obvious kept it's meaning,
she would have stayed near.
if love would of been,
she wouldn't of wanted....and I think you realised the problem in this stanza, but decided to plough on into ever more complex and strangled logic.....you end up with very fuzzy grammar. "would of" and "would not of" are not best word choices at any time but are shown up as grammatical terrorists when so close to "would have", the freedom fighter. Tighten up this by reading it aloud.....but not in a John Wayne drawl or you may think it is acceptable!

She knows her skin
enough to know
that it had been tainted
fingerprints can be evidence.Punctuation is needed

If innocence would have begged her, Tense this time. Have you given up on "had" or is this an American movie scriptafter all?
she wouldn't have left.
if faith would of had purpose,
she would have been saved.OMG......now we would have of had it all! This needs surgical procedure.

She brings hindsight
with her when she sleeps,
and when she sleeps
she dreams it.Yes to this. Insightful, clear as gin,and punctuated to near perfection. This is a functioning stanza. Worthy.

Does it make her broken?You could practically repeat all that I wrote in the first half in application to the second half

If anything would have been visible,
she wouldn't have taken her eyes off of it.
if destiny would have been friendly,
she wouldn't have been scared.

She was disavowed from the world.of or by but not from
existing upon it-she's no longer in it.
though she clasped the earth once
she stands on her toes to barely feel it.

If it just had been a thought,
would she still be thinking?
if she had truly knew it,This is just ghastly.Please read it through. Some would correct this for you as service-crit, others would gently suggest alternatives. I think you know this is very poor language use.....and you will know how to put it right
would she have known it?

She knows, she has to know
knowing is not always knowledge.
sometimes it is a place and a time
and when it happens, it is a memory.

Does this make her broken?
[/quote
End of second half and we are in injury time. I know and appreciate what you are trying to do here but like many before you, me included, you have not got the balance between structure and content right. With the best musings comes a responsibilty to rise to the challenge of getting the best out of the thought. What happens all to often is that the desire to "get it written down" is so compelling that the poetry goes out of the window. You will probably counter this crit, and so did I, with that good 'ol defence, "but I don't think structure matters"...or spelling or punctuation or whatever, and that is just fine UNTIL it does matter. .....and it maters here. Much praise for the thought (although I have read a little scrawl called "If" by another) but this needs work.
Best,
tectak

[arbil_poieo]

Hey tectak,
Thank you for reading and your feedback. You without a doubt have given me a lot to think about. I put this poem in serious because I do like it and I believe that it has potential. I will work on this more and use your feedback to improve it and post this again. I'll keep the idea and my "functioning stanza", as well as some other lines and go from there. In my second stanza you mentioned that it has seismic shifts, what did you mean by that exactly?

I agree with you, I do have that tendency of trying to write it all down but in the end it loses the content and structure and it becomes just a long thought.

I respect your suggestions on this and will work on it.

[addy]

I really like the idea of the poem, but I think you're having trouble with parts of the execution. It's possible that you've also overextended the point, where a handful of demonstrations and images would have been enough to get the story across. And as tectak pointed out, sometimes the logic comes off as both leaden and circuitous... straying from the heart of the poem in an effort to force equivalencies.

Great idea, but needs more grace

If the world had been expected,
she wouldn't have cried.
if time had a form,
she wouldn't have ignored it.

When breathing took time
after she couldn't catch it.
exercising inhaling-exhaling
it has been settled to a notion.

Does it make her broken?

If obvious kept it's meaning,
she would have stayed near.
if love would of been,
she wouldn't of wanted.

She knows her skin
enough to know
that it had been tainted
fingerprints can be evidence. I know this part is useful in grounding the poem, framing the abstract statements in a very human story of the POV's pain and disappointment. But I think there needs to be more effort in tying this section in to the overall piece. Right now it stands as an island , imo

If innocence would have begged her,
she wouldn't have left.
if faith would of had purpose,
she would have been saved.

She brings hindsight
with her when she sleeps,
and when she sleeps
she dreams it. Lovely stanza

Does it make her broken?

If anything would have been visible,
she wouldn't have taken her eyes off of it.
if destiny would have been friendly,
she wouldn't have been scared.

She was disavowed from the world.
existing upon it-she's no longer in it.
though she clasped the earth once
she stands on her toes to barely feel it. fantastic couplet imo

If it just had been a thought,
would she still be thinking?
if she had truly knew it,
would she have known it? At this point I don't this stanza isn't even needed anymore, as it is more of the same but done less well. You could safely transition from the "she stands on her toes..." line to the "she knows..." line in the next stanza

She knows, she has to know
knowing is not always knowledge. "she has to know knowing is not always knowledge".... it just reads as very unwieldy to me
sometimes it is a place and a time
and when it happens, it is a memory. Overall this stanza is clunky and vague, I'm afraid. but i like what you're trying to put across

Does this make her broken?

[billy]

i've read this more than once, and even discussed it with addy. (she's my sounding board ) and i have a problem. i like the idea, i like some of the content but i'm not sure about it's execution. Kipling's IF is one of my favourite poems so i can't help but judge this against IT; though i do realise the content there was his son whilst here it's the actuality of IF

If the world had been expected,
she wouldn't have cried.
if time had a form,
she wouldn't have ignored it. it already feels more like the anser is the obsession.

When breathing took time
after she couldn't catch it.
exercising inhaling-exhaling
it has been settled to a notion. here the obsessions seems to have left.

Does it make her broken?

If obvious kept it's meaning,
she would have stayed near.
if love would of been,
she wouldn't of wanted.

She knows her skin
enough to know
that it had been tainted
fingerprints can be evidence.

If innocence would have begged her,
she wouldn't have left.
if faith would of had purpose,
she would have been saved.

She brings hindsight
with her when she sleeps,
and when she sleeps
she dreams it.

Does it make her broken?

If anything would have been visible,
she wouldn't have taken her eyes off of it.
if destiny would have been friendly,
she wouldn't have been scared.

She was disavowed from the world.
existing upon it-she's no longer in it.
though she clasped the earth once
she stands on her toes to barely feel it.

If it just had been a thought,
would she still be thinking?
if she had truly knew it,
would she have known it?

She knows, she has to know
knowing is not always knowledge.
sometimes it is a place and a time
and when it happens, it is a memory. i love this stanza but it's of another something other than IF

Does this make her broken? [/b]same here, great end line but not of IF[/b]

i like the poem but i'm struggling to see it as an obsession over IF. what i can see; is an obsession over SHE

thanks for the read.

[arbil_poieo]

hey addy and billy
I appreciate both of your suggestions very much.

I also like the idea, my thought process behind it was to reveal little by little the character's pain by using "if" while tell a story about the character and have a point in the end. Through reading the feedbacks and going back over it, I need to take a different approach, a shorter not so messy approach. Billy, I read Kepling's "If" and I can understand why it's your one of your favorite poems. I chose to use IF because I had an idea in my head of an ending to a poem and IF popped in my head so I wrote it down and stuck with it throughout parts of the poem. Initially I built the poem around the end and used IF to get there. "Obsession Over If" wasn't the original title I chose for it, it was actually "If Innocence Would Have Begged Her", but I didn't want to use a line out of the poem even though that line sums up the poem itself, I wanted a title that was relatable and not predictable. I can see why IF is an inappropriate title because I didn't stick to it for the whole poem, but I didn't want to overuse it. I agree with both of you, I started out with a good idea but it wasn't executed well and that is what I expected. I needed some fresh eyes to help me improve it and make it what I want it to be because honestly I didn't know where to start with it and yet I didn't want to let it go. I do understand that it's just too much and I'll work on that when editing this.

addy you mentioned that the ending was vague and clunky but you do understand where I was going with it, any suggestions on how to improve it?

Thank you both again for reading and for your critque, it will help me a lot...I'm gonna get there with this poem one of these days.

[addy]

addy you mentioned that the ending was vague and clunky but you do understand where I was going with it, any suggestions on how to improve it?

sometimes it is a place and a time
and when it happens, it is a memory

The "it"s trip you up, I think. Throughout the poem, the recurring idea was that the abstract concepts of the world and her life, though ephemeral, had disappointed her and caused her very real pain. (Interestingly pain itself seems concrete but actually is also pretty abstract). So it was a good thought to close the poem with, the idea that concrete things transform to abstract things through the filter of experience and memory. That's how I interpret it anyway. It's just... as a reader, it was a little hard getting to that interpretation.

It's really just the phrasing, with the proliferation of the evasive "it"'s ... i was able to interpret it in the context of the wider poem, but taken in isolation the stanza for me does struggle to explain itself. You might be getting into a headspace that's so abstract that you struggle to use language that is helpful to the reader.

[tectak]

Hey tectak,
Thank you for reading and your feedback. You without a doubt have given me a lot to think about. I put this poem in serious because I do like it and I believe that it has potential. I will work on this more and use your feedback to improve it and post this again. I'll keep the idea and my "functioning stanza", as well as some other lines and go from there. In my second stanza you mentioned that it has seismic shifts, what did you mean by that exactly?

I agree with you, I do have that tendency of trying to write it all down but in the end it loses the content and structure and it becomes just a long thought.

I respect your suggestions on this and will work on it.

Hi arbil.
Seismic shifts. Read billy's crit. He points out, like me, that in the first two stanzas, and noting the title, your whole focus shifts from IF to WHEN.
The piece suffers from this kind of literary leaping so indicative of the burgeoning of concept. Mr. Kipling in his beautiful and reflective poem has written a piece of commitment verse in that he runs right through the whole thing in pensive and prevaricative thought, never quite reaching a conclusion, but never loses sight of his target. He commits to a conclusion, an answer, an ending from the very first line.
Many readers will relate to the Kipling poem and you are then in a hard place with this one. IF you persist with it, and you should,THEN you should make the piece your own. A suggestion would be this. Make each stanza an IF/THEN equation, complete and free-standing. You could end, still, with an encapsulating stanza. This may better suit your idea.
Best,
tectak

[Philatone]

hey!
some thoughts for you

If the world had been expected,
she wouldn't have cried.
if time had a form,
she wouldn't have ignored it. ...really really nitpicky, but i wanted something more parallel to the first two lines. not a fan of the "it" at the end of "ignored", or of using any object there at all

When breathing took time
after she couldn't catch it....period?
exercising inhaling-exhaling
it has been settled to a notion.

Does it make her broken?

If obvious kept it's meaning,
she would have stayed near.
if love would of been,
she wouldn't of wanted. ...grammar check? just want to be sure

She knows her skin
enough to know
that it had been tainted
fingerprints can be evidence....this stanza really could be condensed. I don't think you need the "can be evidence"--"fingerprints" already carries that weight with it, at least for me

If innocence would have begged her,
she wouldn't have left.
if faith would of had purpose,..capital "I"
she would have been saved.

She brings hindsight
with her when she sleeps,
and when she sleeps
she dreams it. ...another stanza that could be shortened, really just to "she dreams hindsight"--it would also give you a stronger opportunity and space to elaborate

Does it make her broken?

If anything would have been visible,..."anything" strikes me as a little too broad
she wouldn't have taken her eyes off of it.
if destiny would have been friendly,
she wouldn't have been scared.

She was disavowed from the world.
existing upon it-she's no longer in it....period?
though she clasped the earth once...capital "t"
she stands on her toes to barely feel it.

If it just had been a thought,
would she still be thinking?
if she had truly knew it,
would she have known it?...a few too many "it's" and "know's" (extends into the next stanza as well)

She knows, she has to know
knowing is not always knowledge.
sometimes it is a place and a time
and when it happens, it is a memory.

Does this make her broken?

you are playing with a powerful, emotive, but ultimately futile word in If. i think it brings the reader to your side. at the same time, extending a piece on things that do not actually happen strikes me as being difficult, potentially. I had some questions about your grammar and punctuation, but those are relatively easy to look over. in general for now, i think the poem would benefit from cutting out some lines to make it feel a bit tighter and remove the excess

[arbil_poieo]

"she dreams hindsight" suggestion I actually didn't think of that but it's an idea. I will definitely shorten it up. Thank you for your thoughts, very useful.