Legacy Lost

[Erthona]

.
Ver 2

In some places
where innocence has yet
to fade,
one might still intrude
on an American
apple pie day,
but
I have not held a moment
like that
in my hands
for many years.
My memories
of those small town times
once
sharp as a blade of
St. Augustine*
have all been
whitewashed away.



---------------
In some places
…maybe
—where innocence has yet
to leak away—
one might still intrude
on an American
apple pie day,
but
I have not held a moment
like that
in my hands
for many faded years.
My memories
of those small town times
once
sharp as a blade of
St. Augustine*
have all been
whitewashed away.

©2010-2012 –Erthona

*St. Augustine: "a low, mat-forming grass, Stenotaphrum secundatum, of the southern U.S. and tropical America, that is cultivated as a lawn grass."

[don miguel]

Hi Erthona. I'm new round these parts, so I thought I'd start by commenting on a fresh poem.

It's a poem full of yearning, but the right side of sentimentality. The strong sense of 'loss' suggested by the title, and the mention of 'innocence' bring Milton to mind. A quick check of the forum shows me another poem of yours called 'Bethlehem', so I presume there is some religious motivation behind the poem. This seems to be confirmed by the mention of 'St Augustine' later in the poem, which you gloss as a type of grass, but the real man was famous for his philosophy of Christianity, of course. Interesting, Wikipedia tells me he also coined the phrase 'original sin' - which takes us back to the garden of Eden (and Milton), in which there was of course an apple - as we have here in line 7, albeit in a pie. The mention of 'grass' also takes on Edenic connotations. So arguably, the narrator of the poem is a modern day Adam.

That's the content of the poem, but what of its form? You'll excuse me as this is one of my first posts, but as this is the 'serious critique' section, I found the poem's form the real problem. The punctuation in the first few lines is unnecessary and distracting; the second line is particularly weak. The lines themselves are flat and prosaic, and the whole poem strikes me as being of the 'cut-up prose' sort. And, the religious connotations aside, the poem is pretty unremarkable in what it's saying. There are a few nice phrases: the 'apple pie day', the mention of the grass and the memories having been 'whitewashed'. This makes for an ending which at first struck me as neat, until I realised it's also a pun, so ends on the wrong note for a poem which is otherwise expressing sorrow at the loss of cherished memories.

Perhaps it needs a few more telling details... although this might be difficult to expand as the narrator no longer has these memories, so obviously can't discuss them in detail! But maybe this philosophical response could have been triggered by something seen in reality. I'm just trying to suggest possible ways of developing the poem. Maybe if you could ground the poem a bit more, that might help. I think that's what's missing. 'In some places' is a bit vague. Anyway, I hope you find that of some use. Thanks, dm.

[billy]

.
In some places
…maybe
—where innocence has yet
to leak away— so the 1st person still has hope? i like the opening sparse as it is.
one might still intrude
on an American
apple pie day, see dm, now all i see are eve and apples. before that i saw society as it was.
but
I have not held a moment
like that
in my hands
for many faded years. i like that it's ambiguous as to who you're lamenting, you or them, or possibly both, again i found it sparse yet here it had grace.
My memories
of those small town times
once
sharp as a blade of
St. Augustine* i know the phrase as sharp as grass, and am grateful for the footnote.
have all been
whitewashed away. not sure whitewashed away works in conjunction with grass, though it does depict a loss of memories rather well

©2010-2012 –Erthona

*St. Augustine: "a low, mat-forming grass, Stenotaphrum secundatum, of the southern U.S. and tropical America, that is cultivated as a lawn grass."

i'm sure they're needed but i keep going back to those [...]'s and that 1st[-]; and thinking they're in the wrong place, or even unnecessary.

i stupidly read dm's feedback and now i see all sorts of stuff and am struggling to see my own take on the thing. (one of the reasons i seldom read other peoples crit till i've done my own) i like the simplicity of it and in places it ambiguity (which to some extent gets cleared up at the end (almost)) i think very little needs any meddling with. what really stood out for me were the words;

maybe
but
once


normally i see small words on their own as wasted but here it's like a message hidden away. some kind of code. intentional or not i think they add a lot to the piece.
thanks for the read.

[Erthona]

DM,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. As far as my intent, you are probably projecting far more onto this poem than I intended. My poetry is often archetypal and so I will often allude to any number of things from past literature as a way to create an image of a particular archetype. There is certainly innocence and loss of innocence in the poem, but for me these are archetypes of human experience and the story of the "Garden of Eden" is simply one literary manifestation of that. St Augustine is simply St Augustine grass which is why I footnoted it. There was no conscious intention to invoke the person of St Augustine. St Augustine grass was very representative of dreams in Southern and Southwestern America during the 50' through the 70's, as it was a dream of many men to be able to cultivate a yard of this grass, for it was as beautiful and it was difficult to grow. It thrived in shade with lots of water, whereas we had a lot of sun and little water.
"whitewashed" was used as a double entendre to demonstrate a twist, that this idyllic setting was only at the expense of ignoring the racial inequalities of the time. So it leans primarily on the verb form:

to cover up or gloss over the faults or errors of; absolve from blame.

which is of course the only way apple pie innocence could exists, thus leading to the second usage

to whiten with whitewash.

In other words a white society, primarily due to segregation. So while it can be read as a pun, as in to express humor, that was not the intent.
------------------------------------------------------------------
In terms of the form I wish you would have been a little more specific in terms of what you think makes it seem "flat and prosaic".

"The punctuation in the first few lines is unnecessary and distracting"

You could be correct, there are many who disdain it altogether as a stylistic choice. That is not me however, and I do not write poetry as a tabula rasa for reader response. I endeavor to be as clear as possible and I feel that punctuation is a primary tool in accomplishing that. The punctuation is there to let the reader know how it is to be read. The em dashes simply create a parenthetical statement and the ellipses indicate a reflective pause: that the speaker is re-thinking, then qualifying his original statement, and this indicates that this is somehow important. On the surface I would agree with you that it reads somewhat prosaic, however the subtext is not I think, however I will concede that this is not of any great intellectual depth. It is simply a musing about the cost of things, and how two disparate realities can exist in the same place at the same time, with both being maybe as real as the other.

Thanks again for your comments. I will continue to consider them.

Dale

---

Billy,

"not sure whitewashed away works in conjunction with grass, though it does depict a loss of memories rather well"

Now that you bring it up, the connection may be related in only my experience. I was thinking about seeing someone pouring a bucket of watered down white paint onto the grass as they were rinsing out their painting equipment (I worked as a house painter for awhile). It also ties in to where I grew up everything got sort of a washed out appearance because of the constant wind and dust, as though a light coating of chalk dust was layered over everything. However in my defense, whitewashed is "muted" as contrasted to the "sharp" of the grass as well as it's color. Regardless, for good or ill, I think I am stuck with it, as I know of nothing to replace it with that would fulfill its task.

Thanks for giving it a read, you seemed to have squeezed most of the juice out of it

Dale

[addy]

Lovely. It's a sparse piece, but it means itself to be sparse.

.
In some places
…maybe
—where innocence has yet
to leak away— I found the use of punctuations rather random in this part. Also, not sure "leak away" is an image that particularly ties up with the rest of your poem
one might still intrude
on an American
apple pie day,
but
I have not held a moment
like that
in my hands
for many faded years.
My memories
of those small town times
once
sharp as a blade of Should this be "sharp as blades"?
St. Augustine*
have all been
whitewashed away.

©2010-2012 –Erthona

*St. Augustine: "a low, mat-forming grass, Stenotaphrum secundatum, of the southern U.S. and tropical America, that is cultivated as a lawn grass."

[Erthona]

Thanks Addy,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"not sure "leak away" is an image that particularly ties up with the rest of your poem"

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure dribble won't work :p Suggestions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Should this be "sharp as blades"?"

I don't think so, at least I prefer to use a singular noun here as it creates more focus. I think of it in the same way I would do with sword/swords. I would say "sharp as the blade of a sword", not "sharp as the blades of swords". Does that make sense?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
" I found the use of punctuations rather random in this part."

I'm not sure what is random about

—where innocence has yet to leak away—

it is the same as writing

(where innocence has yet to leak away)

it is said almost as an aside. As I meant for it to be parenthetical, and em dashes are generally used in poetry for parenthetical phrases, I'm not sure how this is random. Could you explain why you think it is random?

----------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the comments,

Dale

[addy]

Ah. It's okay if they were meant to be parenthetical then, but the ellipsis then followed by the dashes was not that smooth a read for me. The flow of ideas break away twice, too soon, and i found it distracting in reading. It may not be a problem for others though

There's nothing really wrong with "leak away", but I assumed because of the phrasing that it was meant to echo "whitewashed away" later in the poem. To me whitewashed (grass) and faded (years) complement as ideas, while leaking (innocence) gives off a very different vibe.

I prefer "sharp as a blade" myself, but only offered the question because it referred to the plural form "memories...have all been" etc. That may be taking the grammar too far though

[penguin]

The innocence leaks away - the memories are whitewashed away.
I think you'd have a better poem if the 2nd were analogous to the first. Dryness, dust, desert spring to mind.

[Erthona]

I prefer "sharp as a blade" myself, but only offered the question because it referred to the plural form "memories...have all been" etc. That may be taking the grammar too far though
[/quote]

I don't think the sing/plural rule applies in the case of simile or metaphor as you are using it in a figurative sense and not a literal one, plus it is the sharpness of each we are comparing, not the memories and the blade of grass. If I were comparing memories with grass, then yes, it would be blades of grass. I think that is the distinction. What say you?

Dale

---

"The innocence leaks away - the memories are whitewashed away.
I think you'd have a better poem if the 2nd were analogous to the first. Dryness, dust, desert spring to mind."

Sorry, I don't understand your suggestions. How is it you are wanting to apply them?

In my mind (and this may not come out in the poem) innocence leaks away (because of disillusionment,and dishonesty) for similar reasons that memories are whitewashed away, or vice versa. That is, they are not similar in process, but in kind. However, for me "whitewashed" and "leaked" in this case are interchangeable. I understand what you are saying though, but I don't have a word to use that would convey what I want.

Thanks,

Dale

---

"Ah. It's okay if they were meant to be parenthetical then, but the ellipsis then followed by the dashes was not that smooth a read for me. "

Maybe I will do away with the ellipses. This was also brought up by DM and Billy as being problematic.

Anyone else want to chime in on that? Ellipses? Yea or Nay?

Dale

[don miguel]

Thanks for the reply, Erthona.

What do I mean by the lines being 'flat and prosaic'? Well, you're writing in free verse, so metre is eschewed, but that doesn't mean rhythm is, or that the poet has to pay attention to the music and sound of words in combination – in fact, they become more important, because the poet has to create his/her own music and rhythm.

The rhythm is flat because there is no consistent pattern established or maintained. This isn't helped by the parentheses of the first few lines; the lines of single words; and the seemingly arbitrary breaks of some of the lines. Eg. the last seven lines – a single sentence – read to me more like a sentence of prose than consciously chosen lines of poetry with strong line breaks. Why break line 16 at 'of' and not the stronger 'blade' which enables the reader to savour that image slightly longer before moving on? It seems arbitrary to break it on a preposition.

This rhythm is also at odds with a narrator who is meditating on an issue thoughtfully – this is one thing the parentheses do tell us – the narrator clearly has time to consider and reconsider his thoughts ('maybe…', line 2). This is historically, and still contemporaneously, where blank verse has come in, or longer lines of controlled free verse. So in all, it doesn't make for a satisfactorily coherent or rhythmically convincing poem.

As for the Jungian archetypes – as stated, the Fall of Man is certainly there. (The titles 'Legacy Lost' and 'Paradise Lost' are hardly a million miles away from each other.) I showed with evidence from the text how this reading works, so I don't think I'm projecting things onto the poem. If there are other archetypes, I can't see them; but I imagine the majority of poems do this unconsciously anyway.

But this also means there's a contradiction between saying you're alluding to a range of archetypes which you expect the reader to pick up on, then saying readers should infer only one specific meaning of a name – St Augustine – that is directly related to religion. The connotations of words are there whether you or I like them or not, and you can't avoid them just by providing a gloss.

And I take the point about the racial connotations of 'whitewashed' - but the word modifies 'my memories', so doesn't relate to the town, which I'm not sure is exactly what you mean to say.

Anyway, I hope that helps to clarify a few things. Cheers, dm.

[Erthona]

DM, thank you for the explication. I was probably unclear when talking of archetypes. I was meaning to say that just because I use a religious reference to describe an archetype, doesn't mean my intent is religious. However, there are a number of archetypes in this poem, besides the "state of innocence" and "the fall", there is the speaker who is basically a Rasselas type character, a prodigal son if you will. There is this idea that we often times remember things as better than they were, the idea of the idyllic, trying to recapture lost youth, and so on. Regardless, I frequently find things in my poems when I return to them years later that I had no conscious awareness of when writing them. So although one can draw a corollary between "Paradise Lost" and the title of this poem, that was not an intended aspect of mine at the time. In other words, you are giving me more credit than I deserve by implying that I consciously put all the things you mentioned in this poem. But a poem, unlike a child, once it is born it is on its own.
-----------------------------------------------------------
There is however a rhythmic quality to the lines, although not a smooth one. It is the quality of a man walking, then stopping, then walking, almost like the gait of a drunken man. Not pretty to be sure, but that was not my intent, but I can see how you would see it as flat as it is an arrhythmical rhythm
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I take the point about the racial connotations of 'whitewashed' - but the word modifies 'my memories', so doesn't relate to the town, which I'm not sure is exactly what you mean to say.

"My memories" are of "of those small town times", and the idea of the town (the setting) acts as a metaphor for the "golden age" of the fifties in America, which on the one hand did exist for some, but at the same time there was racial strife, constant fear of a nuclear attack, and many other undertones that would eventually manifest in the sixties and later. The idyllic times, a two car garage, a chicken in every pot, the "gee whiz" attitude, existed only if one was totally unaware of the other things, or somehow managed to turn a blind eye to them.

Well, that's probably more explanation than this piece deserves. As I noted above I probably will change some of the punctuation, as other have also mentioned that was a problem for them.

Thanks again for your comments.

Dale

[tectak]

.
In some places
…maybe
—where innocence has yetellipsis into "maybe" is bad form because you should have pondered the thought before you wrote it down. This weakens the opener just too much. It says to me that you are not going to be anything other than wishy-washy in this piece, and that is just not a style that I see you comfortable in. I realise that each piece should be judged on "as is" but I am left leaderless in this one.
to leak away—
one might still intrude Then to follow with the dashed insert really loses the authority of tenureship. I am left wondering whether I should believe in the writer. Sorry, but I am not yet talking about any meaning in this piece but if the "innocence" insert is relevant then I regret it is allowed to just "leak" away. I guess I am saying that "leaking" is just too domestic....like a washerless tap...er...faucet
on an American
apple pie day,Can't connect with the theme yet but I am already concerned over the form/punctuation/ literacy ( not your literacy, the character's)
but
I have not held a moment
like that
in my hands
for many faded years. I like this as a standalone but what moment are you not holding. You seem to be whistfully vague in all things and now I may be seeing the force of the piece. It is a bit of a shock if there is no third person character in sight.
My memories
of those small town times
once
sharp as a blade of
St. Augustine* Love this for the same reason as above. I particularly like, as I have said before, the "local" input. St.Augustine grass MAY be obscure to most BUT as an example of what makes an image high in resolution, any photographer will tell you that ".... it was so sharp you could see every blade of grass".That I like and I don't care if it "means" something religiously cognitive. Caution Muse at work!
have all been
whitewashed away. OK. So end on a puzzle. I didn't get any of the deeper significance that others saw. I don't do complicated....I would, though, just point out that whitewashing COVERS rather than REMOVES. Is this significant? Answers on a postcard , please.[b]
Best,
tectak

©2010-2012 –Erthona

*St. Augustine: "a low, mat-forming grass, Stenotaphrum secundatum, of the southern U.S. and tropical America, that is cultivated as a lawn grass."

[penguin]

Hello Dale. I was trying to suggest it would be a neat image if memories, like innocence, were shown to have leaked away. A memory like a sieve is one example, there are others using variations on dryness. I don't really see leaked and whitewashed as being interchangeable.

Ray

[Erthona]

Ray,

Ok, got you. Thanks for the clarification. I'll think about it.

Dale

---

Tom,

It is vague and wishy-washy, because it is vague and wishy-washy. Superficially it is a nostalgic reminisce without overtones of religion (at least as far as my intentions).

"whitewashing COVERS rather than REMOVES"

of course it does, that was rather the point. I think if you read "Young Goodman Brown" you will see the same use of ambiguity here as there. One is let with shit in each hand, one being real shit, the other only illusion and having no way to tell them apart when one's nose starts itching.

I will concede the opening punctuation to general consensus in the same way Pilot said (in Jesus Christ Superstar, anyway), but to keep you vultures happy I shall flog him. :p

Dale