Revelation

[Erthona]

Here is a re-write of this poem. I tried to address various problematic areas that were pointed out. Dale

v2
...breath’s emanations echo a sigh;
angels circle corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls on me;
I know my own mortality:
for broken is life’s seal
when a poem is real.


v 1
...harsh effluence still sounds a sigh;
angels circle round the corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls over me,
I know my own mortality,
then broken is the seal,
when a poem is real.

[tectak]

...harsh effluence still sounds a sigh;effluence?Sighing effluence?Am I missing something? Something does not smell good around here
angels circle round the corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls over me,
I know my own mortality,
and broken is the seal,
when a poem is real. but as a first stanza, this is a great opener. Onwards to stanza 2...........oh......there isn't one

There is the germ of a seed of a thought here. I may have felt what you are saying once upon a time but I could have been dreaming someone else's dream.

Mortality and I
rarely see eye to eye.
I see what I want to see,
I look away from mortality.
Mortality has plans for me
But I shall die in ignominy.
Tectak 2000 on a hill new years eve.

©2012 –Erthona

[Erthona]

effluence
noun
1.
the action or process of flowing out; efflux.
2.
something that flows out; emanation.

would you like emanation better. I was trying to avoid the "sighing breath" cliche. I was trying to get out the idea that when spirit flows out, even if raspy, it still sounds like a sigh because of the purity, and because it is not hindered by any type of egoism. This is an idea that Ginsburg came back to a lot, and recent conversations with Billy about the "on" has caused me to think about it again. It is a similar idea that I have struggled with in terms of éntheos having a god within, equivalent to en- en- + -thous, -theos god-possessing + -ia, and the idea that true art always is a reflection of some part of God/gods... The idea embodied in Gnosticism that creation is a emanation of the creator, see also Blake and "Vala" or "or The Four Zoas".

However, I think I have been less than clear overall. Each line is suppose to be something one might experience when confronted by a real poem. I didn't think it was very good to begin with, although I think the idea is valid, I just haven't done it justice here.

Anyway, thanks for the comments,

Dale

[Indie]

...harsh effluence still sounds a sigh;
angels circle round the corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls over me,
I know my own mortality,
and broken is the seal,
when a poem is real.


©2012 –Erthona

Short, sharp and to the point. Thought provoking. No real nits other than "and" in the second last line. IMO it's not needed. (And yes, this coming from the chick that overuses the word "and")

[Erthona]

"and" in the second last line. IMO it's not needed.

Yeah, I played around with when, then, and, and the at the start of those last two lines. Never really could decide how it needed to be. It was on "and" when the wheel stopped, so I guess I just left it there. From a content standpoint it doesn't need the extra word, from a rhythmic standpoint I think it does, but not "and"!

Thanks for the feedback.

Dale

[billy]

...harsh effluence still sounds a sigh; it feels like effluent not sure if the 'still' works
angels circle round the corners of my eyes; great image of a smile
Death’s shadow falls over me,
I know my own mortality,
and broken is the seal,
when a poem is real.


©2012 –Erthona

i get a feel or different emotions apart from the last 2 lines. when i hear effluence i never think of it as just an outpouring, even though i know it is, so the line wasn't that good for me. obviously from the title you're knowing or realising something but what? the last line states it's a poem but i'm not sure that's enough. i read teckak's response and even if he hadn't of mentioned it, i would say it needs opening up and expanding on.

thanks for the read

[tectak]

effluence
noun
1.
the action or process of flowing out; efflux.
2.
something that flows out; emanation.

would you like emanation better. I was trying to avoid the "sighing breath" cliche. I was trying to get out the idea that when spirit flows out, even if raspy, it still sounds like a sigh because of the purity, and because it is not hindered by any type of egoism. This is an idea that Ginsburg came back to a lot, and recent conversations with Billy about the "on" has caused me to think about it again. It is a similar idea that I have struggled with in terms of éntheos having a god within, equivalent to en- en- + -thous, -theos god-possessing + -ia, and the idea that true art always is a reflection of some part of God/gods... The idea embodied in Gnosticism that creation is a emanation of the creator, see also Blake and "Vala" or "or The Four Zoas".
Y
However, I think I have been less than clear overall. Each line is suppose to be something one might experience when confronted by a real poem. I didn't think it was very good to begin with, although I think the idea is valid, I just haven't done it justice here.

Anyway, thanks for the comments,

Dale

Not unnaturally thrown off track by effluence. Being a brit it has a distinct connotation from the reverse derivation of effluent. So yes to emanation. I had to do a quick flick through my Ginsbergs to get a handle on which one yo were talking about but I still cannot locare any repeated ref to the outflowing of spirit. Help.
Interesting involvement of Gnostic(ism) as many and oft are the claims made for "entheos" by the use of psychoactive substances, primarily of fungus origin. Psilocybin from P.semilancata, mesculin (muscarine) from A.muscaria are tge commonest.....both can cause symptomatic illusory wisdom. Users often report that they had esoteric outpourings in which they felt the wisdom of god made man.
You lost me ,though, both in intent and in poetic endeavour(my failing)with the Gnostic ism definition when linked to the concept if entheos . My understanding has always been that the imperfection of the material ( real?) worldwas not god's fault or intent. We are talking christian here?
Best,
Tectak

[Erthona]

Billy,

Noted, as noted below.

Thanks,

Dale
------------------------------------

Tectak,

"So yes to emanation." OK. Sometimes I get to cute for my own good will change in next version.
-----------------------------------------
"flick through my Ginsbergs to get a handle on which one yo were talking about but I still cannot locare any repeated ref to the outflowing of spirit. Help."

Ginsberg talks specifically about this in the movie "no direction home" [disc 2 I think]about Bob Dylan's singing as a sort of shamanism or channeling of spirit. He also talked fairly extensively about his (Ginsberg's) writing as a line being equal to a breath.

"Ginsberg denied any intention toward meter and claimed instead that meter follows the natural poetic voice, not the other way around; he said, as he learned from Williams, that natural speech is occasionally dactylic, so poetry that imitates natural speech will sometimes fall into a dactylic structure, but only accidentally. Like Williams, Ginsberg's line breaks were often determined by breath: one line in "Howl", for example, should be read in one breath. Ginsberg claimed he developed such a long line because he had long breaths (saying perhaps it was because he talked fast, or he did yoga, or he was Jewish). The long line could also be traced back to his study of Walt Whitman; Ginsberg claimed Whitman's long line was a dynamic technique few other poets had ventured to develop further. "
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Ginsberg) footnoted from several sources.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The base of discussion of gnosticism changed radically with the discovery of the Nag Hammadi library, and led to revision of older assumptions, and a reorientation of modern scholarship following the 1966 conference on gnosticism in Messina."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism)

There is this idea in gnosticism (see Demiurge) that the "real world" is an emanation of God, and the further one gets from the spiritual into the material (that is from a high vibration to a lower vibration, think molecules in liquid water as opposed to those in water ice) the further from good and the closer to evil one gets. One can infer from this that "reality" in it's particulars, is made in God's image. Therefore, a 'real' poem is one that the reader can recognize the aspects that are closer to God, and/or the origin of Being. The idea of this poem was to basically list the signs that occur in the reader when he is reading a 'real' poem, or that which we refer to in the purest sense as 'art'. For my purposes, art is equal to truth: truth being the greater reality beyond our own, and from which our reality is derived. When one has a recognition of such truth, it is generally accompanied by certain physical signs such as "goose flesh", hair on neck raising" and so on. This is a concept (art as truth) that permeates a large portion of my poetry, at least from a philosophical standpoint if not an actual one. However, please do not infer that I am postulating a "God" in the normal sense, but only as what can be inferred about such a reality from an examination of how it manifests in our own. This of course assumes the validity of the primary argument, but I believe that is fairly axiomatic. So no, not in the sense you mean it, we are not talking "Christian here", as Gnosticism, Christian or otherwise characterized, is not compatible with that worldview. Just as a further note, nearly all of the esoteric, or mystery traditions were generally considered heretical from the standpoint of the First Council of Nicaea 325 CE onward, as they were attempting to incorporate an exoteric tradition that would be assessable to a much larger portion of the population, and had the added benefit of being able to be more rigidly fixed, and tied to a central authority.

Dale

[addy]

...harsh effluence still sounds a sigh;
angels circle round the corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls over me,
I know my own mortality,
and broken is the seal,
when a poem is real.


©2012 –Erthona

I really love the idea of it. At first I wasn't sold on the ellipsis at the beginning but I see how they work. Love L2, though some of your other lines are a little more cliche. I like the sense of the last line, but maybe there's a way to phrase it that'll sound stronger and more definitive.

I have no particular problem with "effluence" as it kind of fits well with the exhalation thing, but then again I'm no brit

[Leanne]

...harsh effluence still sounds a sigh;
angels circle round the corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls over me,
I know my own mortality,
and broken is the seal,
when a poem is real.


©2012 –Erthona

Hi there Dale, just thought I'd wade into the effluence, super-strength wellies on... for me, effluence does have sewage connotations but I'd like to buck the trend and say that I was quite pleased with the way that works in conjunction with the broken seal as it gives the impression of "real poetry" rising above all of that muck. Now, that's no doubt different to your intent but I thought I'd offer a different spin. Additionally -- in my head at least -- there is the contrast between the emissions of the mortal flesh and the more superb ether beyond the seventh seal. So I like it, a tiny little piece that opens up many worlds of possibility.

[Arachne]

...harsh effluence still sounds a sigh;
angels circle round the corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls over me,
I know my own mortality,
and broken is the seal,
when a poem is real.


©2012 –Erthona

I am not one for structure, but I like that the words are able to create a visual in that I see a man who envisions his eventual departure from his body. At the same time, the "broken seal" symbolizes life beyond death in that your writing will live on. The poem is real and is an extension of self.

[Erthona]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I didn't see this had gotten anything since the last time, so I was not ignoring you, I just missed it. I don't have time to return comment for comment, but what everyone has said has helped me see where I need to fine tune (pun intended) this one.

Thanks,

Dale

[Erthona]

OK, effluence is out. See Version 2 above.

Dale

[tectak]

Here is a re-write of this poem. I tried to address various problematic areas that were pointed out. Dale

v2
...breath’s emanations echo a sigh;
angels circle corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls on me;
I know my own mortality:
for broken is life’s seal
when a poem is real.


v 1
...harsh effluence still sounds a sigh;
angels circle round the corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls over me,
I know my own mortality,
then broken is the seal,
when a poem is real.

yes yes yes to this. I like it very much. The edits have made this a poem for everyman (and leanne if she gets sexist) and it will be pinned up in my khasi....even without effluence
best,
tectak

---

Here is a re-write of this poem. I tried to address various problematic areas that were pointed out. Dale

v2
...breath’s emanations echo a sigh;
angels circle corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls on me;
I know my own mortality:
for broken is life’s seal
when a poem is real

v 1
...harsh effluence still sounds a sigh;
angels circle round the corners of my eyes;
Death’s shadow falls over me,
I know my own mortality,
then broken is the seal,
when a poem is real.

yes yes yes to this. I like it very much. The edits have made this a poem for everyman (and leanne if she gets sexist) and it will be pinned up in my khasi....even without effluence
best,
tectak

[Leanne]

Indeed worthy of pinning to the wall of tectak's hallowed lavvy... I like the edits a great deal but I can't help feeling that there's a beat missing from L3 and want to say "upon" instead of "on"... perhaps I am just being anal

[Erthona]

tectak

Glad to give you paper for the head.
----------------------------
Leanne,

I've gone back and forth on that one myself. When I add it in there seems as if there is too many beats. Go figure. I've thought about

"Death’s shadow falls on to me"

I think "upon" puts the accent in the wrong place.

Dale