Nazi UFO's and 5-7-5 haiku

[rayheinrich]

While not as exciting as Nazi UFOs based in Antarctica or Mel's
bottomless cave near Ellensburg, Washington (USA) that can bring
dead dogs back to life; the urban legend of 5-7-5 haiku is just as
immortal. So, yes, there's no way to kill it; it will survive the coming
genetic plagues nestled safely within the brains of its hyper-intelligent
cockroach hosts. Still, every time I see it mentioned, I futilely post this:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most regular writers of haiku stopped using 5-7-5 in the mid 1970's.
Most English haiku is now based on capturing the multi-cultural
effects of haiku, not its Japanese syllable count.

This came about because translators of Japanese haiku found that
to arrive at 5-7-5 in English, they kept having to change the literal
translations by adding words. Take Basho's haiku about the old pond
for instance:

Literal Translation:
Fu-ru (old) I-ke (pond) ya, <- 5 Japanese syllables = 2 English
ka-wa-zu (frog) to-bi-ko-mu (jumping into) <- 7 Japanese = 5 English
mi-zu (water) no o-to (sound) <- 5 Japanese = 3 English

Literal without the Japanese:
old pond
frog jumping-into
water sound

A classic 19th century 5-7-5 translation by William J. Higginson:
An old silent pond...
A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

A contemporary translation (mid 1980's?) by Robert Hass:
Old pond...
a frog jumps in
water's sound.

The translators conclusion was that Japanese usually took more
syllables than English to express the same content and that trying
to match the syllables one-for-one created awkward (not to mention
incorrect) translations. (Contemporary translations of Japanese haiku
generally end up having 9 to 14 syllables, 17 is uncommon.)

So... while it's possible to write perfectly fine 5-7-5 English poems;
they are usually (not always) a bit too wordy to have the effect of haiku.

Does that matter?
Only if you want to: "...evoke the lightning spirit of Japanese haiku
and use its economy of words to create paintings that barely escape
telling all." - Evelyn Ramsey


P.S. One-step method for writing haiku:

1. Paint a second picture that surprises the first. (Compare two images.)


P.P.S. Jane Reichhold describes some of the techniques that can be
used to perform step 1:

HAIKU TECHNIQUES
http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiartjr.htm

Jane Reichhold's excellent haiku site:
http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiku.htm

[ellajam]

Although the thread is old, the issue is not.

Thanks, Ray, for posting your comments and the links. They should hold some weight in any haiku discussion based on the effectiveness of your own, and after reading current posts in the short forms forum it seems posters have plenty to say.

So, bump.

[ChristopherSea]

Although the thread is old, the issue is not.

Thanks, Ray, for posting your comments and the links. They should hold some weight in any haiku discussion based on the effectiveness of your own, and after reading current posts in the short forms forum it seems posters have plenty to say.

So, bump.

You bumped the master

[billy]

While I agree that the 575 format is more a guide, I won,t dismiss those who see it as a must do. Personally I'm of the "if it can be spoken in a normal breath" school of thought.

[milo]

Jack Kerouac
American Haikus
(Copyright 1959)

"The American Haiku is not exactly the Japanese
Haiku. The Japanese Haiku is strictly disciplined
to seventeen syllables but since the language
structure is different I don't think American
Haikus (short three-line poems intended to be
completely packed with Void of Whole) should worry
about syllables because American speech is
something again...bursting to pop.

Above all, a Haiku must be very simple and free
of all poetic trickery and make a little picture
and yet be as airy and graceful as a Vivaldi
Pastorella."
Jack Kerouac

[L Oquence]

so, in essence, in American haikus the 575 is merely a guide, and most likely has too many syllables to capture the feeling of a Japanese haiku?

[billy]

I never liked Kerouac till just now. Of course Kerouac can't compare to the woman ray likes to quote.

Jack Kerouac
American Haikus
(Copyright

"Above all, a Haiku must be very simple and free
of all poetic trickery and make a little picture
and yet be as airy and graceful as a Vivaldi
Pastorella."
Jack Kerouac

---

so, in essence, in American haikus the 575 is merely a guide, and most likely has too many syllables to capture the feeling of a Japanese haiku?

For many it is, for some it isn't .for me it's a good. Way to get into the form. once you can do a few in the 575 format you can have a try at at doing it outside the 575 format. For a. Short form there's a lot of squabbling goes on. Have a look at what Kerouac said in Milo's post; it makes a lot of sense, specially the part that says don't use poetic trickery, ray will advise otherwise, as will others, pick a path and walk it

[rayheinrich]

                Poets are magicians.

                Poetry is 100% tricks.

                Bad poetry is trickery.

                Good poetry is MAGIC.


           



P.S. Pastorellas are only airy and graceful from the front; if you look
around back, all you'll find is sweaty musicians and smelly cows.

[milo]

                Poets are magicians.

                Poetry is 100% tricks.

                Bad poetry is trickery.

                Good poetry is MAGIC.


           



P.S. Pastorellas are only airy and graceful from the front; if you look
around back, all you'll find is sweaty musicians and smelly cows.

Take it up with kerouac.
Oh. He's dead.
He was never really a pigpen regular anyway.

[rayheinrich]

Take it up with kerouac.
Oh. He's dead.
He was never really a pigpen regular anyway.

The poetic trickery drove him away.

[Leanne]

Kerouac won't speak
Someone smoked all the damned frogs
No-one has mirrors

[rayheinrich]

so, in essence, in American haikus the 575 is merely a guide, and most likely has too many syllables to capture the feeling of a Japanese haiku?

IMHO: 12 or fewer is a good guide.
But:
Of the four major criteria a poem must meet to be considered a haiku,
syllable count comes in sixth.

But if you really want to be anal, click the spoiler button:

The guide I use is: 12 or fewer (mine are usually about 8)
medium length syllables. Short ones count .5 and long ones
count 1.5 .

old pond
frog jumps into
the sound of water

Long: pond, jumps, sound
Medium: old, frog,
Short: in, to, the, of, wat, er

So this (famous) one's about 9.5 .

Don't EVER be this anal (unless you're a computer nerd like me),
2 to 5 per line is fine.

And yes, again: Counting syllables is a bunch of crap.

[billy]

so let me get this straight 575 isn't written in stone, but you advise 12 or less.
though counting syllables is crap. now i understand, count 12 or less and you're good to go, count 15 or 15 and you haven't a clue.

to L Oquence
imho, use the number you feel is correct, 10 15 even 20, just go for the slice of an image
if you're starting out, do some of the 575 format to help you lay the thing down then work out the right number for the poem you're doing. despite what people will tell you no one here is an expert on the form and the fish pond poem quoted above has been translated a multitude of times with varying syllable counts, some of which have 15.

here's another one he did;

This separates into on as:

ha-tsu shi-gu-re (5)
sa-ru mo ko-mi-no wo (7)
ho-shi-ge na-ri (5)

Translated:

the first cold shower
even the monkey seems to want
a little coat of straw

This haiku by Bashō illustrates that he was not always constrained to a 5-7-5 on pattern. It contains 18 on in the pattern 6-7-5 ("ō" or "おう" is treated as two on.) sourced form wiki

this is arguably one of the greatest poets of this form, if he can use 18, so can you. the sad thing is, people will tell you to do what they think should be done. that someone tells you not to do 575 is very misleading indeed. on the point of syllable count don't listen us, in truth none of us know the correct way, unless you're japanese there is no correct way. the 575 is the most common of guides. once you get a feel of the thing don't have the syll count in mind, think more about the image and the change in direction. google is your friend

[rayheinrich]

Yes, billie's got some good points there.

Like I said, syllables come about sixth on the list, i.e. not that important.

But haiku should be short. And to start with you need to get a feel for their length.

Earlier Billy mentioned:
"Personally I'm of the "if it can be spoken in a normal breath" school of thought.:

And that's MUCH better than counting syllables. Of course, some people have longer
breaths than others. So a good rule of thumb is:

A haiku should take about 3 to 7 seconds to speak out loud in a relaxed (but not slow)
voice using proper pauses at the ends of the lines.

The Basho pond one: (translated by Robert Hass)

old pond
frog jumps into
the sound of water                 (9.5 syllables using short/medium/long method)

Should take about 5 seconds.


The one Billy mentioned: (using Robert Hass's translation instead of the one Billy used):

first cold shower
even the monkey wants
a coat of straw                 (11 syllables using short/medium/long method)

Takes about 5 as well.


Yep, much better.


P.S. Some translators use only lower case and few, if any, punctuation marks because written
Japanese has no upper case and very few punctuation marks. (? and ! are expressed
with sentence structure and "." with a space.)

[ChristopherSea]

Yes, billie's got some good points there.

Like I said, syllables come about sixth on the list, i.e. not that important.

But haiku should be short. And to start with you need to get a feel for their length.

Earlier Billy mentioned:
"Personally I'm of the "if it can be spoken in a normal breath" school of thought.:

And that's MUCH better than counting syllables. Of course, some people have longer
breaths than others. So a good rule of thumb is:

A haiku should take about 3 to 7 seconds to speak out loud in a relaxed (but not slow)
voice using proper pauses at the ends of the lines.

The Basho pond one: (translated by Robert Hass)

old pond
frog jumps into
the sound of water                 (9.5 syllables using short/medium/long method)

Should take about 5 seconds.


The one Billy mentioned: (using Robert Hass's translation instead of the one Billy used):

first cold shower
even the monkey wants
a coat of straw                 (11 syllables using short/medium/long method)

Takes about 5 as well.


Yep, much better.


P.S. Some translators use only lower case and few, if any, punctuation marks because written
Japanese has no upper case and very few punctuation marks. (? and ! are expressed
with sentence structure and "." with a space.)

Thanks Ray and Billy! You are our resident Haiku 'Nazis.' I never call mine haiku, perhaps because I still incorporate some abstraction and I like to have a title. Sometimes a title can serve as another line. My newest one has 'trance' it it, which is possibly too abstract for traditional. It is still 5-7-5, but I may get more comfortable with less. I think for some of us composing in 5-7-5 and then taking another look for further brevity might work best.

[milo]

Take it up with kerouac.
Oh. He's dead.
He was never really a pigpen regular anyway.

The poetic trickery drove him away.

It is a shame we can't get a message to him some how to let him know that he was wrong. Is anyone on the site a medium?

[rayheinrich]

Take it up with kerouac.
Oh. He's dead.
He was never really a pigpen regular anyway.

The poetic trickery drove him away.

It is a shame we can't get a message to him some how to let him know that he was wrong. Is anyone on the site a medium?

Leanne mentioned something about being a medium. Though with
that Aussie accent it was hard to tell if she was talking about
metaphysics or hat size. (Leanne, of course, is capable of both.)

The above text contained 400 Japanese "syllables" which are
equivalent to 300 English syllables which means I'm on topic.

[billy]

Take it up with kerouac.
Oh. He's dead.
He was never really a pigpen regular anyway.

The poetic trickery drove him away.

It is a shame we can't get a message to him some how to let him know that he was wrong. Is anyone on the site a medium?

i;m a large

---

Yes, billie's got some good points there.

Like I said, syllables come about sixth on the list, i.e. not that important.

But haiku should be short. And to start with you need to get a feel for their length.

Earlier Billy mentioned:
"Personally I'm of the "if it can be spoken in a normal breath" school of thought.:

And that's MUCH better than counting syllables. Of course, some people have longer
breaths than others. So a good rule of thumb is:

A haiku should take about 3 to 7 seconds to speak out loud in a relaxed (but not slow)
voice using proper pauses at the ends of the lines.

The Basho pond one: (translated by Robert Hass)

old pond
frog jumps into
the sound of water                 (9.5 syllables using short/medium/long method)

Should take about 5 seconds.


The one Billy mentioned: (using Robert Hass's translation instead of the one Billy used):

first cold shower
even the monkey wants
a coat of straw                 (11 syllables using short/medium/long method)

Takes about 5 as well.


Yep, much better.


P.S. Some translators use only lower case and few, if any, punctuation marks because written
Japanese has no upper case and very few punctuation marks. (? and ! are expressed
with sentence structure and "." with a space.)

Thanks Ray and Billy! You are our resident Haiku 'Nazis.' I never call mine haiku, perhaps because I still incorporate some abstraction and I like to have a title. Sometimes a title can serve as another line. My newest one has 'trance' it it, which is possibly too abstract for traditional. It is still 5-7-5, but I may get more comfortable with less. I think for some of us composing in 5-7-5 and then taking another look for further brevity might work best.

if you're trying to do a haiku call it a haiku, if you try and do a senryu call it a senryu, if you just want to write and enjoy it for the sake of it, call it a faux yu like ray. they all work.

trying to write a haiku but passing it off as senryu is a bit of a cop out .

as for the nazi stuff, it's all just POV and all helpful as long as you're discerning with what is said, google really can be a friend. and make sure you (everyone ) voices their opinion on this or any other form of topic on the site.

[ChristopherSea]

The poetic trickery drove him away.

It is a shame we can't get a message to him some how to let him know that he was wrong. Is anyone on the site a medium?

i;m a large

---

Yes, billie's got some good points there.

Like I said, syllables come about sixth on the list, i.e. not that important.

But haiku should be short. And to start with you need to get a feel for their length.

Earlier Billy mentioned:
"Personally I'm of the "if it can be spoken in a normal breath" school of thought.:

And that's MUCH better than counting syllables. Of course, some people have longer
breaths than others. So a good rule of thumb is:

A haiku should take about 3 to 7 seconds to speak out loud in a relaxed (but not slow)
voice using proper pauses at the ends of the lines.

The Basho pond one: (translated by Robert Hass)

old pond
frog jumps into
the sound of water                 (9.5 syllables using short/medium/long method)

Should take about 5 seconds.


The one Billy mentioned: (using Robert Hass's translation instead of the one Billy used):

first cold shower
even the monkey wants
a coat of straw                 (11 syllables using short/medium/long method)

Takes about 5 as well.


Yep, much better.


P.S. Some translators use only lower case and few, if any, punctuation marks because written
Japanese has no upper case and very few punctuation marks. (? and ! are expressed
with sentence structure and "." with a space.)

Thanks Ray and Billy! You are our resident Haiku 'Nazis.' I never call mine haiku, perhaps because I still incorporate some abstraction and I like to have a title. Sometimes a title can serve as another line. My newest one has 'trance' it it, which is possibly too abstract for traditional. It is still 5-7-5, but I may get more comfortable with less. I think for some of us composing in 5-7-5 and then taking another look for further brevity might work best.

if you're trying to do a haiku call it a haiku, if you try and do a senryu call it a senryu, if you just want to write and enjoy it for the sake of it, call it a faux yu like ray. they all work.

trying to write a haiku but passing it off as senryu is a bit of a cop out .

as for the nazi stuff, it's all just POV and all helpful as long as you're discerning with what is said, google really can be a friend. and make sure you (everyone ) voices their opinion on this or any other form of topic on the site.

No, you guys know what you are doing. The 'Nazi' was actually a compliment in that you can direct others on form and tradition, like poetry police (informing us of the rules and proper execution)! Nazi was also in the title of the thread. I personally like to do 'no-ku' short forms for several reasons: to preserve snippets for potential elaboration into longer forms later and to try to say something using a restricted number of words and lines (a little poem that perhaps speaks volumes). I always welcome input on them (thanks for looking over mine), while knowing that mine don't adhere to form as I mentioned above. It's not a cop-out if you never make a claim to haiku or senryu.

[Erthona]

I've seen some pretty good poems on this site, I've yet to see anything even haiku-esque I was much impressed with. However, as Ray said, it is far too late to kill the damn thing, so I guess I will just have to put up with the nonsense. It would be much more sensible to write short form poetry, regardless of form and only ask if it achieved something, not did it have this or that. (ELH) has nothing to do with the English language, or did the Japanese invade along with the French?

dale