Are songwriters just a different kind of poet? Are they poets at all, or something entirely different?
'Black'
Words by Eddie Vedder
[youtube]cs-XZ_dN4Hc[/youtube]
This is my favorite band, but don't be afraid to say it sucks or that as poetry the writing sucks or whatever you think. It won't bother me, I promise.
Haha, Pearl Jam are the band I most often take the piss out of for cliched lyrics Still, they're definitely not the worst in the business.
Very few songs would stand alone as poems -- but they aren't two completely different animals. I can't write song lyrics for shit -- I tell myself it's because I'm so used to writing to be read AND heard, but read first and foremost. My dearly beloved tells me it's pretty much because I'm uncool
Many songs contain incredibly poetic lyrics. Leonard Cohen always springs to mind (though he definitely has his fair share of cheese). Jim Morrison obviously THOUGHT himself a poet, but I can't see it myself, no matter how much I love The Doors. I have a book of his poems and I lost count of the number of times he used the word "cock"...
One of my favourite lyrical bands at the moment is The View, out of Dundee in Scotland... the trouble is, it takes an awfully long time to decipher what they're saying...
dylan and cohen instantly spring to mind. i think some songwriters take poetry to their music.
and some songs are all poetry, but mainly they're just songs. i always thought Vincent (starry starry night) by don McClain a piece of poetry. comparing song to poetry is a little like comparing chalk and cheese. they're both worthwhile in their own different ways.
09-16-2011, 12:03 PM (This post was last modified: 09-16-2011, 12:06 PM by Todd.)
Paul Simon is pretty good at poetry I think. I like The Sound of Silence quite a bit as a poem. I think Strange Fruit sung by Billie Holiday is a great poem if not probably a great song (she just had a good delivery of it).
Oh and while I was being a bit sarcastic about Hole and Courtney Love in another thread...I think Violet has good lyrics. Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here also seems written well for a poem.
Singers cheat on their meter all the time though with runs and pauses that don't exist in the line. I think if you can read it like a poem and like it, and it doesn't need the singer's charisma to sell it then it's likely a good poem.
I have quoted Strange Fruit on my poetry site for our controversial board.
I think Florence and The Machine write poetic lyrics (especially Howl) and I've always been partial to Nick Cave for the same reason. I remember thinking Skid Row had poetic lyrics in a couple songs off their sophomore release (Quicksand Jesus/Light In A Darkened Room), I'm partial to Metal Church's Badlands, and Aya by Black Rebel Motorcycle Club.
PS. If you can, try your hand at giving some of the others a bit of feedback. If you already have, thanks, can you do some more?
That one certainly does work as a poem -- never underestimate the power of simplicity, as long as it's not full of cliches and triteness. Those last two verses in particular are brilliant.
The English poet, Simon Armitage, when teaching, uses Bob Dylan as an example--- of what a poem should not be. He is, however, a great admirer of Dylan as a singer. It is as Billy says, largely a matter of not comparing like with like. What does a songwriter care about forced rhymes? Or rhyming the same word with itself, if he chooses? Yet poetry and song seem to have the same roots, and sometimes, poets seem to write with song in mind. There was a tradition in France where poets would also be song-writers, I think Jacques Prevert was like that.
I have seen a lot of disdain towards songwriters, but I think I understand why. In much the same way that traditionalist musicians look at rock-n-rollers as 'hiding' behind amplification and effects, songwriters can hide behind melody, melismatics and accompaniment. Instrumental breaks, production and repetition can make simple, short lyrics into great big songs. Thus, the songwriter need only share part of the listener's attention while the melody, rhythm and charismatic band singer 'sell' the words to the audience.
On the other hand, poets don't have to write melody lines, understand tempo, time notes (its not the same) or regulate key signatures or changes. Poetry doesn't have the advantage of these elements nor the complexity of them. Just like 'electric' rock bands have to understand the effects equipment and old-time, bluegrass bands don't.
Songwriting is different, imo, but poetry must be a cousin.
I see no reason for there to be hard feelings either direction. Both require talent and skill, both evoke emotional responses, and both are enjoyable.
Blue grass is a guilty pleasure of mine. There is an excellent Blue Grass festival just a couple of hours from here I attend every year.
PS. If you can, try your hand at giving some of the others a bit of feedback. If you already have, thanks, can you do some more?
Poets who disdain songwriters are clearly a bit insecure about their own status. Granted, it's annoying when someone like Jewel claims to be a "poet"... aaargh... but writing lyrics is a specialist field that may have the same mother as poetry, but went a different path long ago.
OMG - her 'poetry' collection sold more copies than any other in history - and imo it's doggerel.
I couldn't finish it. I kept thinking "Who published this shit?"
PS. If you can, try your hand at giving some of the others a bit of feedback. If you already have, thanks, can you do some more?
Songwriters: DURITZ, ADAM/BRYSON, DAVID/MALLEY, MATTHEW/BOWMAN, STEVE
Step out the front door like a ghost
Into a fog where no one notices
The contrast of white on white.
And in between the moon and you
The angels get a better view
Of the crumbling difference between wrong and right.
I walk in the air between the rain
Through myself and back again
Where? I don't know.
Maria says she's dying
Through the door I hear her crying
Why? I don't know.
Round here we always stand up straight
Round here something radiates
Maria came from Nashville with a suitcase in her hand
She said she'd like to meet a boy who looks like Elvis
And she walks along the edge of where the ocean meets the land
Just like she's walking on a wire
In the circus
She parks her car outside of my house
And takes her clothes off
Says she's close to understanding Jesus
She knows she's more than just a little misunderstood
She has trouble acting normal
Well I have trouble acting normal
When she's nervous!
Round here we're carving out our names
Round here we all look the same
Round here we talk just like lions
But we sacrifice just like lambs
Round here
She's slipping through my hands . . .
Sleeping children better run like the wind
Out of the lightning dream
Mama's little baby better get herself in
Out of the lightning
She says, "It's only in my head."
She says, "Shhhhh. I know, it's only in my head . . ."
But the girl on the car in the parking lot
Says "Man you should try to take a shot
Can't you see my walls are crumbling?"
Then she looks up at the building
Says "I'm thinking of jumping"
She says "I'm sick and tired of life"
She must be tired of something
Round here,
She's always on my mind.
Round here,
hey man,
got lots of time
Round here we're never sent to bed early
And nobody makes us wait
Round here we stay up very, very, very, very late
I can't see nothing... nothing round here
Would you catch me if I'm fallin'?
Catch me if I'm fallin'.
Catch me if I'm fallin' down 'round here!
I said I'm under the gun
around here.
Oh man, I said I'm under the gun
'round here.
And I can't see nothing
nothing
round here.
some people can drive cars well but not all people who drive can drive a formula 1 car, and not all F1 drivers, drive well on public roads. like it's been said they're two separate animals. some can cross over from one to the other. but in general many songs rely on the music and beat. poetry relies on poetic devices. it's the same with slam or spoken word poetry. it's difference because the voice alone can hold it up as a poem. in text it could read as a shite poem but when spoken in a certain way it sound perfect. i believe that if leanne read a lot of my poetry it would be much better than it is on paper.
the really great poetry has a voice even when it's just being read to oneself. i think poetry can be a part of song and vice verse, but in general they're two distinct arms of the arts.
I think billy's analogy is spot on... they are differing art forms. Lyrics don't automatically count as poetry, but some songwriters do pull it off very well. Leonard Cohen is of course the go-to example and quite unmatched. Nowadays i've noticed quite a few indie-ish bands tend to be more lyrics-focused; there are some songs that feel like strong writing slapped onto an average melody, like they were by a writer who dabbles in music instead of the other way around (I'm thinking of The Hush Sound's "You Are The Moon".... and I don't mean it at all as an insult. I quite like that song)
Here's a lyric from Puscifer that I'm fond of
"The Humbling River"
Nature, nurture heaven and home
Sum of all, and by them, driven
To conquer every mountain shown
But I've never crossed the river
Braved the forests, braved the stone
Braved the icy winds and fire
Braved and beat them on my own
Yet I'm helpless by the river
Angel, angel, what have I done?
I've faced the quakes, the wind, the fire
I've conquered country, crown, and throne
Why can't I cross this river?
Angel, angel, what have I done?
I've faced the quakes, the wind, the fire
I've conquered country, crown, and throne
Why can't I cross this river?
Pay no mind to the battles you've won
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
It'll take a lot more than words and guns
A whole lot more than riches and muscle
The hands of the many must join as one
And together we'll cross the river
PS. If you can, try your hand at giving some of the others a bit of feedback. If you already have, thanks, can you do some more?
09-14-2012, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 09-14-2012, 06:43 PM by billy.)
while we're discussing poetry and song writing. what about poetry and music.
for me acker bilks stranger on the shore is hauntingly beautiful (in places)poetry. [youtube]Q7jZeXvpyZQ[/youtube]
