Teaching of homosexuality!

[Aish]

Sex Ed is now mandatory in NY schools. See, I am not ok with that approach.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/10/sex...mandatory/

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School should be, by definition, academic in origin. The school systems here fail, the public education system is in shambles (especially in larger urban areas) and more and more topics/activities continue to be added, including after school care. Educators are not parents, babysitters, moral police, ethics instructors, etc.

[billy]

Sex Ed is now mandatory in NY schools. See, I am not ok with that approach.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/10/sex...mandatory/

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School should be, by definition, academic in origin. The school systems here fail, the public education system is in shambles (especially in larger urban areas) and more and more topics/activities continue to be added, including after school care. Educators are not parents, babysitters, moral police, ethics instructors, etc.

some think that teachers are stand in parents. and most western societies give schools complete charge of their kid.

i don't believe schools are just there to teach academic subjects, i think that's what college or university is for. schools are where our kids learn to interact with each other, they learn how how to play and how not have sex without a condom. i think in the early years we learn a lot more than academics from school and rightly so. early on teachers are substitute parents and as such should give kids who are gender confused or outright gay the same attention as hetero kids. jmo

[Aish]

Any kid in school should get equal attention. That is a separate issue. Making anything mandatory automatically limits personal choice and parental rights, which I'm not down with. Also, I disagree with your premise of school. Yes, kids must learn to interact with others. However, teachers are not surrogate parents - that's one of the problems.

[Leanne]

Teachers are NOT surrogate parents, this is true -- and neither is TV, despite this attempt to have Bert and Ernie get married. This isn't political correctness, it's forcing adult issues onto preschoolers.

It was bad enough that they fucked around with Noddy. What weird games did these loony civil libertarians play with THEIR dolls?

[billy]

in the uk the law pretty much says while the kid is in school the child belongs to them.
i'd prefer something you can opt out of than have to opt into (in this case) parents can opt out of it but only for so long. (i think)
but in the instance you mentioned it seems it isn't in truth it's this fact is the separate issue.


the question is; at what age should schools begin discussing sexuality in all the major forms? I.E. same gender male, female, hetero.
because of;

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- A bill passed Friday by the Tennessee Senate would forbid public school teachers and students in grades kindergarten through eight from discussing the fact that some people are gay.

Opponents deride the measure as the "don't say gay bill." They say it's unfair to the children of gay parents and could lead to more bullying. Supporters say it is intended to give teachers clear guidance for dealing with younger children on a potentially explosive topic.

and it's the forbidding which i find a bit silly. the fact is, some people are gay but they can't discuss the fact.

but back to teaching. if we say no to sex education, should we also say no to any kind of education. anatomy and what goes where is part of the academe, all doctors have to learn about it as do many psycho courses. i think kids (from the age of about 9) learn about their body's and should be able to talk to teachers about it. if all teachers are, are robots who teach the three r's then society for me has really gone to hell i a hand basket. the teachers of my kids were warm caring people who put my kids emotional welfare on pare with their academical welfare.

[Leanne]

When I was at school (and it's not so long ago, stop sniggering billy) sex ed was taught as part of the science curriculum, starting in year 7 (first year of high school). Most of the first year stuff was just discussing the changes we could expect during puberty, fairly dry stuff but obviously very important. In the second year, there was a lot more talk of what hormones do to your head and how to keep it in perspective, but I don't recall any teachers saying that relationships had to be boy-girl and I don't think the gay kids were teased or singled out any more than us speckies

[billy]

yeah but if a gay kid asked a question, was he told "sorry there is no such thing as a gay person?

which is what this is about. little hetero kids can ask about the birds and the bees but if a gay kid says, can gay men have babies he's basically told to get fucked. this ruling cuts out any discussions re gay. "miss, i get an erection when i look at mathew"
"johnny, get a grip. everyone knows mathew is a girl"

[Leanne]

Hell no, it was always ok to talk about being gay, it just wasn't top of the agenda because, like everything in schools, they mostly pitched to the middle ground. It was slightly different when we moved to Queensland, since sodomy was still illegal here until 1990, but nobody paid any attention to the law Marijuana was illegal too (still is, obviously) but most teachers felt an obligation to educate kids on drug safety.

I don't know what it's like in the schools these days though. My kids are only primary school age, and all the "sex ed" they get is about "good feelings and yucky feelings" and "this is a special me-only part of my body".

[billy]

Hell no, it was always ok to talk about being gay, it just wasn't top of the agenda because, like everything in schools, they mostly pitched to the middle ground. It was slightly different when we moved to Queensland, since sodomy was still illegal here until 1990, but nobody paid any attention to the law Marijuana was illegal too (still is, obviously) but most teachers felt an obligation to educate kids on drug safety.

I don't know what it's like in the schools these days though. My kids are only primary school age, and all the "sex ed" they get is about "good feelings and yucky feelings" and "this is a special me-only part of my body".

right, it was no biggy. johny asks if it's normal to like male ass and a kind teacher quietly says stay behind and we'll talk about it. they tell the kid it could be a phase he's going through or there again he may just be wired that way, to wait and see what what in a year or two.

but to say teachers are forbidden to talk about homosexuality if a kid asks is scandalous.

[Aish]

Teachers are NOT surrogate parents, this is true -- and neither is TV, despite this attempt to have Bert and Ernie get married. This isn't political correctness, it's forcing adult issues onto preschoolers.

It was bad enough that they fucked around with Noddy. What weird games did these loony civil libertarians play with THEIR dolls?

I honestly have kept my kids away from television as much as possible - not complete exclusion, but I have never parked them in front of it and left them there. Teletubbies creeped me the fuck out, and so did Barney. I have never watched Noddy? I guess I'm old school - my kids have chores, cook, and play outside. We make cookies, scream at each other, have water balloon fights, see concerts, etc. It's a personal opinion, but I think if people don't want to teach their kids and interact with them, then they shouldn't have them.
"This isn't political correctness, it's forcing adult issues onto preschoolers. " I agree with this 100%.
"What weird games did these loony civil libertarians play with THEIR dolls?" I am a little confused - and it may be a continent difference - I'm a Libertarian. Here that equals small federal government, maximum personal liberties, and no income taxes. It gets confused with liberalism a lot - which I'm not. I'm basically socially liberal - ok with legalized pot, salt, gay marriage, etc - b/c as a Libertarian I believe these are all personal choices and freedoms and should not be regulated by the federal government. Liberal/Progressivism is wholly different.

I don't think heterosexuality vs homosexuality should be 'taught' in a school - and even though parents come in all shades and some won't want to talk to their kids about it well, that's their hangup and they have the right to teach (or neglect to teach) their kid as they see fit. Playground talk is horrendous - we all survived it (Jack might not have). In any program teaching sex ed alternative lifestyles shouldn't be ignored - but even then there are some mighty big leaps - the gay lifestyle has some extreme niches. So does the heterosexual lifestyle. Where is the line drawn? As an adult I have no qualms with swingers, BDSM, cross dressers, medical fetishes, etc - but what's next? Is some group going to come out yelling that fisting isn't being taught to 12 year olds?
Sex education to me is in a completely different orbit from anatomy, psychology, physics...it ushers in matters of morality and religion, personal standards, etc. In any classroom, at any age, teachers use their own bias.

I am seriously considering home schooling my two youngest. Not because of sex education, btw.

[billy]

i see what yu say aish but do we turn a gay kid away and tell him to ask mummy
i think if there then it should be there for everyone. and if a kid asks a question he should be answered.
it isn't about teaching them to be gay, it's about being there for them should they ask about it. to say homosexuals don't exist could maybe fuck quite a few lives up.

i agree with what you said here;
I don't think heterosexuality vs homosexuality should be 'taught' in a school

i do think kids at a certain age need to know the ins and outs (pardon the pun) of sex and what the problems are should you engage in it before your fully equipped to do so. gay or otherwise.

[Leanne]

For myself, I don't believe sex should ever be mixed up in morality or religion. For too long, shame and damnation have been the tools of choice against the autonomy of the body physical (especially for women). Sure, in certain situations it can be dangerous -- but so can using a lawnmower. For every tool that we have, we should have a complete and easily accessible operations manual.

I'm essentially libertarian as well, but there are those extremists who believe that "civil liberties" means pushing a personal agenda to the exclusion of all else, with no regard for any consequence but their own victory. They are often buttoned up, politically correct, quick to take offence at the slightest possible provocation... and for the most part, they fall into the category of the chronically unfuckable.

[Aish]

Kids should always be allowed to ask questions - teachers can be put in some really sticky situations with large implications. Ask a direct question, give a direct answer - sounds simple, but people get fired for using their own judgement and sometimes prosecuted. This topic has so many nuances and shades of gray it is maddening. Should a teacher have to turn a student away? No. Should they say homosexuality doesn't exist? NO. But someobody's toes are always gonna get stepped on.

"I do think kids at a certain age need to know the ins and outs (pardon the pun) of sex and what the problems are should you engage in it before your fully equipped to do so. gay or otherwise. " I agree with this, I do - but to me the sex ed debate is no different that the debate over distributing condoms and birth control pills at school - school officials cite pregnancy and disease rates (scary to be sure), and some parents want it but the ones who don't, the ones who prefer to educate their kids on such subjects themselves, get ostracized. It leads into the debate about when kids have a right to sex. We all come to a point where we make that decision for ourselves - but when some people get a hold of it it becomes ridiculous. Years ago when I was living in The Bay Area a man (like a 26 year old MAN) was receiving free legal representation and defense based on 'a child's right to sex' for sleeping with a 12 year old. That is pedophilia, not a child's right to sex. Had that child (and yes I do consider 12 year olds children) decided to have sex with another 12 year old I would have shook my head and been dismayed - but to be talked into by an adult disgusts me.
I was having sex as a teenager - I have a grown son to prove it - my school handed out condoms and birth control like candy. My school counselor encouraged me to have an abortion. In CA it would have been legal for me to have an abortion without notifying my parents. The argument can be made, well what about kids who can't tell their parents - TRUST ME, my parents did not have a good reaction. Even then I thought it was wrong I could have a major surgery that could make me sterile or possibly kill me, end the life of a child I conceived, and not have to tell my parents. Society sends really messed up mixed messages - we tell our kids they are grown up enough to have sex (which our bodies and hormones are built for) then tell them they aren't mature yet. And most of them really aren't.

to some extent I feel like we are being manipulated into believing that these things are all for the greater good, when it just creates more problems.

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"For myself, I don't believe sex should ever be mixed up in morality or religion. For too long, shame and damnation have been the tools of choice against the autonomy of the body physical (especially for women). " HELL YES!!!!

But - that is rarely the case. I have tried to teach my kids to respect themselves - that sex is natural and their bodies are their own - but I really don't wish to see them treating it like a garbage dump either.

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Have I just dove over again?

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Kids should always be allowed to ask questions - teachers can be put in some really sticky situations with large implications. Ask a direct question, give a direct answer - sounds simple, but people get fired for using their own judgement and sometimes prosecuted. This topic has so many nuances and shades of gray it is maddening. Should a teacher have to turn a student away? No. Should they say homosexuality doesn't exist? NO. But someobody's toes are always gonna get stepped on.

"I do think kids at a certain age need to know the ins and outs (pardon the pun) of sex and what the problems are should you engage in it before your fully equipped to do so. gay or otherwise. " I agree with this, I do - but to me the sex ed debate is no different that the debate over distributing condoms and birth control pills at school - school officials cite pregnancy and disease rates (scary to be sure), and some parents want it but the ones who don't, the ones who prefer to educate their kids on such subjects themselves, get ostracized. It leads into the debate about when kids have a right to sex. We all come to a point where we make that decision for ourselves - but when some people get a hold of it it becomes ridiculous. Years ago when I was living in The Bay Area a man (like a 26 year old MAN) was receiving free legal representation and defense based on 'a child's right to sex' for sleeping with a 12 year old. That is pedophilia, not a child's right to sex. Had that child (and yes I do consider 12 year olds children) decided to have sex with another 12 year old I would have shook my head and been dismayed - but to be talked into by an adult disgusts me.
I was having sex as a teenager - I have a grown son to prove it - my school handed out condoms and birth control like candy. My school counselor encouraged me to have an abortion. In CA it would have been legal for me to have an abortion without notifying my parents. The argument can be made, well what about kids who can't tell their parents - TRUST ME, my parents did not have a good reaction. Even then I thought it was wrong I could have a major surgery that could make me sterile or possibly kill me, end the life of a child I conceived, and not have to tell my parents. Society sends really messed up mixed messages - we tell our kids they are grown up enough to have sex (which our bodies and hormones are built for) then tell them they aren't mature yet. And most of them really aren't.

to some extent I feel like we are being manipulated into believing that these things are all for the greater good, when it just creates more problems.

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"For myself, I don't believe sex should ever be mixed up in morality or religion. For too long, shame and damnation have been the tools of choice against the autonomy of the body physical (especially for women). " HELL YES!!!!

But - that is rarely the case. I have tried to teach my kids to respect themselves - that sex is natural and their bodies are their own - but I really don't wish to see them treating it like a garbage dump either.

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Have I just dove over again?

My high school had a "Marriage and Family Living" class.

It was interesting, and taught various forms of what is considered a family - including homosexuality and commune living. They didn't go into specifics of how to do it, though. Like there wasn't instruction on how to set up an orgy

[Leanne]

Probably the most important message for kids is, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD. My kids are too young to be affected by much of this sort of thing just now, but I'd like to think that when they're old enough, they'll also have enough sense to know that you don't do things just because they seem like a good idea at the time.

At the end of the day, though, they're going to have to make their own mistakes. I just want to make sure they can make informed decisions, even if they're informed and STILL do the stupid thing

I was a very uninformed teenager, despite knowing all the science, as my parents were very concerned with morality -- so I ended up married to the first (much older) man who showed any kind of interest in me, at 19, and things did not end well. I'm glad I made the mistakes, of course, because now I know exactly what I don't want to deal with ever again... but it would have been nice to know a little more about the way of the world beforehand, so I might have been able to ask some questions earlier on.

[Aish]

Well that was nice. I replied - then tried to edit - and now I have deleted my post. DAMN IT.

I bought my kid condoms the instant I knew he was screwing his girlfriend. It was hard on me, but I did it and never said a word to him. I just kept him in a steady supply.

That doesn't mean we had never discussed it - he knew what diseases could get through a condom by age 10. I just didn't want to cry or make him feel uncomfortable, so I bought them and put them in his room and kept doing it.

[Todd]

I realize we've strayed far from Jack's original comment. My general view on all this is that usually when some concentrated effort is made to fix some great ill (poverty, teen pregnancy, etc) the cure usually not only isn't effective but the problem actually grows worse. It usually starts with a lot of probably well meaning people who say, "We have to do something" and our kids become the beta test. Here's the thing, it's not necessarily their fault that things get worse, but it's naive to think there's a one size fits all silver bullet to any problem. Schools are mainly there for social conditioning. If kids attend to age 13 they are statistically less likely to go to prison. While there the kids also get some basic educational skills. What I resent though is the often elitist attitude of educators that supposedly know better than me the parent on the values my child should hold. I'm straight if my son tells me he's gay that won't in any way change how I feel about him. And if my son asks a teacher a direct question that teacher can speak their conscience without me suing him/her for it. But to mandate that my son must have Sex Ed pisses me off. It would depend on the curriculum whether I would be in favor of it, but i'm opposed to losing that choice.

[Aish]

Well said, Todd.

[billy]

may as well broaden the topic.

i have two adults girls we told them about everything and gave advice. but believe me they fucked up all over the place irrespective hehe.
both are happy well adjusted adults now but as teenagers they were crazy bastards.

many teenagers are banging like proverbial bunnies, not because of sex ed but because they can. many are banging without condoms.
at least give them a fighting chance. i'm not saying condoms should be dished out at schools, but i am saying that parents who don't tell their kids anything aren't doing it right. that schools teaching sex ed at a certain age does in many ways help some parents.

[Aish]

I have three boys and one daughter. She just turned 11 - I'm scared as SHIT.

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It's kind of off topic, but one of my friends recently told me his 13 year old daughter was caught having lesbian sex with one of her friends. I was a little shocked, but the first thing out of my mouth was "I would much rather deal with my daughter having sex with girls at that age than boys". Mu husband shot me 'the look' but he can't help it - he was raised by evangelicals.

[billy]

I realize we've strayed far from Jack's original comment. My general view on all this is that usually when some concentrated effort is made to fix some great ill (poverty, teen pregnancy, etc) the cure usually not only isn't effective but the problem actually grows worse. It usually starts with a lot of probably well meaning people who say, "We have to do something" and our kids become the beta test. Here's the thing, it's not necessarily their fault that things get worse, but it's naive to think there's a one size fits all silver bullet to any problem. Schools are mainly there for social conditioning. If kids attend to age 13 they are statistically less likely to go to prison. While there the kids also get some basic educational skills. What I resent though is the often elitist attitude of educators that supposedly know better than me the parent on the values my child should hold. I'm straight if my son tells me he's gay that won't in any way change how I feel about him. And if my son asks a teacher a direct question that teacher can speak their conscience without me suing him/her for it. But to mandate that my son must have Sex Ed pisses me off. It would depend on the curriculum whether I would be in favor of it, but i'm opposed to losing that choice.

and because we as individuals don't want to lose that choice the majority of kids don't know anything till a kid comes a long, but our kids are safe so who gives a fuck.

my problem is this, we all think it's okay to say this or that to teach this or that but god forbid you mention sex to them. aish said she was thinking of home tutoring and i think thats good, then you have the right to teach your child sex ed or not. but in public schools you don't and shouldn't get to pick an choose. lots of life lessons are taught there so kids without decent parents don't fall through the net. sex ed isn't some new fangled fix it. it's been around for decades. they had it when i was of school age. it isn't new.

so after demanding our rights as parents that our offspring don't get taught sex ed; what next? can we say what books they should and shouldn't read. what games they can and can't play. what the school should serve at meal times. as a parent you have the right to tell your kids anything you want or hide anything you want but society has dictated that sex ed is on the curriculum. catholic schools hate it why? because they want to rule the child through fear, by implying that sex is dirty or evil and that to wear a condom goes against the teaching of the church.

if you child is in public school you have the right to tell said child what they got taught was wrong. me, i doubt i could bring myself to do so.