Man this forum is so inactive, it's a real drag

[matsunosuperfan]

I like it here but it is a bummer that people don't even post daily. Also it seems there are like, 6 truly active users. Suffer the little poets to come unto us?

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I like it here but it is a bummer that people don't even post daily. Also it seems there are like, 6 truly active users. Suffer the little poets to come unto us?

I don't even need to post as often as I draft, I just want something to crit XD

[RiverNotch]

I did post two recently, and one has received no crit at all yet xP You can always start there

[busker]

I don’t think we have the critical mass of active posters to be sustainable
Fora are dead
It’s the era of AI poetry on Instagram

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I like it here but it is a bummer that people don't even post daily. Also it seems there are like, 6 truly active users. Suffer the little poets to come unto us?

---

I like it here but it is a bummer that people don't even post daily. Also it seems there are like, 6 truly active users. Suffer the little poets to come unto us?

I don't even need to post as often as I draft, I just want something to crit XD

Matsun, you’ve been posting a fair bit but your comments and crit are of the “lol, this rocks” variety
No one’s going to be arsed to respond to that shit with well timed lobs to the boundary fence

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On a different note, I think we should monetise this forum
Sell poems from the repository to private equity
I once even wrote a pome about that

[dukealien]

I may be part of the problem - I check in every day but don't have much to contribute, not writing much or not much with any quality.

Or it may be that I've got my feelings hurt (was going to say, it seems to me I might be feeling like my feelings have been hurt, but that would be doubly redundant).  Another surprise discovery. 

Ref monetizing:  I make stuff all the time (not poetry, actual quasi-software objects) and give it away - have been doing that since before I retired.  It's the sharing economy; about all we could monetize would be training AIs in the finer points of crit and repartee.  Since we know so much about AIs 

[milo]

I like it here but it is a bummer that people don't even post daily. Also it seems there are like, 6 truly active users. Suffer the little poets to come unto us?

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I like it here but it is a bummer that people don't even post daily. Also it seems there are like, 6 truly active users. Suffer the little poets to come unto us?

I don't even need to post as often as I draft, I just want something to crit XD

It's a known issue - all of the previously active internet poetry forums have died down quite a bit.  We can analyze the reasons.  

Are people still interested in writing and discussing poetry? - Yes, instapoetry is bigger than ever.
Are people only using their phones to access poetry feedback? - No, reddit poetry groups have thousands of daily active members and the posting patterns highly discount the probability of phone-only access


So what is the real reason?  I cannot say for sure but I would guess that newer users would naturally flock to platforms they are mostly familiar with - platforms with billion dollar advertising budgets - like reddit and Instagram

I did try an exercise where I attempted to poach members from reddit but it required quite a bit of work and the results if any were questionable - I posted daily updates to this site for a bit.

What is the solution? - I don't know that there is a a solution.  Part of the problem with our particular situation is we have no site owner or anchor members to drive engagement or take ownership of the site without which it is an inevitable spiral.  That being said, the site was fading even when billy was still alive.

More than happy to discuss strategies.

[CRNDLSM]

Pigpen publishing company

[matsunosuperfan]

I like it here but it is a bummer that people don't even post daily. Also it seems there are like, 6 truly active users. Suffer the little poets to come unto us?

---

I like it here but it is a bummer that people don't even post daily. Also it seems there are like, 6 truly active users. Suffer the little poets to come unto us?

I don't even need to post as often as I draft, I just want something to crit XD

It's a known issue - all of the previously active internet poetry forums have died down quite a bit.  We can analyze the reasons.  

Are people still interested in writing and discussing poetry? - Yes, instapoetry is bigger than ever.
Are people only using their phones to access poetry feedback? - No, reddit poetry groups have thousands of daily active members and the posting patterns highly discount the probability of phone-only access


So what is the real reason?  I cannot say for sure but I would guess that newer users would naturally flock to platforms they are mostly familiar with - platforms with billion dollar advertising budgets - like reddit and Instagram

I did try an exercise where I attempted to poach members from reddit but it required quite a bit of work and the results if any were questionable - I posted daily updates to this site for a bit.

What is the solution? - I don't know that there is a a solution.  Part of the problem with our particular situation is we have no site owner or anchor members to drive engagement or take ownership of the site without which it is an inevitable spiral.  That being said, the site was fading even when billy was still alive.

More than happy to discuss strategies.

Agreed on all counts. I was part of a closed workshop group on Reddit but lost access to that profile (got banned lol)... but also since then I've been spying the group and it seems both less active and lower in quality than at peak, or when I joined (which seems to have been somewhat post-peak, around the Time of the Pandemic). 

I am in a couple Discord groups of varying activity and consistency. At least Berkeley Slam is still going strong... too bad I don't really like slam poetry as a format or approach to art (Saul Williams and Patricia Smith notably excepted). 

I am definitely game to put in 10-15 hours a week advocating for poetry in any form! I feel so often like a gun without a target.

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I don’t think we have the critical mass of active posters to be sustainable
Fora are dead
It’s the era of AI poetry on Instagram

---

I like it here but it is a bummer that people don't even post daily. Also it seems there are like, 6 truly active users. Suffer the little poets to come unto us?

---

I like it here but it is a bummer that people don't even post daily. Also it seems there are like, 6 truly active users. Suffer the little poets to come unto us?

I don't even need to post as often as I draft, I just want something to crit XD

Matsun, you’ve been posting a fair bit but your comments and crit are of the “lol, this rocks” variety
No one’s going to be arsed to respond to that shit with well timed lobs to the boundary fence

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Fair dues, I can definitely be more specific and profligate with my own comments. I kind of tend to try to read the room and follow the going fashion... I respond very well to feedback so please do tell me directly how I can offer notes that would be more useful to you personally - this goes to anyone reading this  <3

[milo]

Agreed on all counts. I was part of a closed workshop group on Reddit but lost access to that profile (got banned lol)... but also since then I've been spying the group and it seems both less active and lower in quality than at peak, or when I joined (which seems to have been somewhat post-peak, around the Time of the Pandemic). 

I am in a couple Discord groups of varying activity and consistency. At least Berkeley Slam is still going strong... too bad I don't really like slam poetry as a format or approach to art (Saul Williams and Patricia Smith notably excepted). 

I am definitely game to put in 10-15 hours a week advocating for poetry in any form! I feel so often like a gun without a target.

well, as I indicated - I have been drawing a blank so I am open to suggestions.

Fair dues, I can definitely be more specific and profligate with my own comments. I kind of tend to try to read the room and follow the going fashion... I respond very well to feedback so please do tell me directly how I can offer notes that would be more useful to you personally - this goes to anyone reading this  <3

To be fair - most people are terrible at both reading and really commenting on poetry.  If you watch people (and I do) most log in - click on a poem, 5 minutes later they have posted their response and then post their own.  I don't think most people are genuinely interested in poetry that is not their own and definitely not interested in putting the amount of work it takes to really enjoy a poem - I chalk it up to our ADHD hyper distracted tiktok age

[rowens]

I say get rid of the rules altogether; suggest the social contract of the original rules in casual discourse in realtime; see whether people follow them or not. Associate with them (people, not rules) accordingly: each can reap what they do or don't sow. If they dump and leave, you (as the smoking caterpillar notes) can dump their dump. Easy-peasy as that guy in Stranger Things said right before he got ripped to pieces by beasts of another color.

[matsunosuperfan]

I say get rid of the rules altogether; suggest the social contract of the original rules in casual discourse in realtime; see whether people follow them or not. Associate with them (people, not rules) accordingly: each can reap what they do or don't sow. If they dump and leave, you (as the smoking caterpillar notes) can dump their dump. Easy-peasy as that guy in Stranger Things said right before he got ripped to pieces by beasts of another color.

I like the jib of your cut.

[rowens]

When the Mods govern, the people are hardly aware that they exist. Next best is a mod who is loved. Next, one who is feared. The worst is one who is despised. If you don’t trust the people, you make them untrustworthy. The Mods don’t talk, they act. When their work is done, the people say, “Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!” (translation by "Stephen Mitchell", 1995)

[milo]

I say get rid of the rules altogether; suggest the social contract of the original rules in casual discourse in realtime; see whether people follow them or not. Associate with them (people, not rules) accordingly: each can reap what they do or don't sow. If they dump and leave, you (as the smoking caterpillar notes) can dump their dump. Easy-peasy as that guy in Stranger Things said right before he got ripped to pieces by beasts of another color.

In reality - and you know this as much as anyone - none of the rules are actually enforced

[rowens]

People talk about them. That's enough to keep slavery and the holocaust and childhood traumas alive. And the children are listening, if not reading and critiquing.

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People don't like the rules, so they're not here. When they're told the rules while here, they take heed or don't. People who don't want people like that here see they are not here.
Free internet poetry site is like no public restroom. The function is still able to be fulfilled.
People break the rules could be punished financially or socially ostracized. They could be triggered, and react reactively until they are banned.
They could simply not be here.

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People take rules personally. The rules. Whether breaking them, avoiding them or having to moderate them.
Ignoring them or being ignorant of them is the most honest approach, as either way, you'll be made aware.
If there is no personal problem, there is no secular problem. That would be good both going and coming back.
One could do worse. (no ellipsis)

[milo]

People talk about them. That's enough to keep slavery and the holocaust and childhood traumas alive. And the children are listening, if not reading and critiquing.

---

People don't like the rules, so they're not here. When they're told the rules while here, they take heed or don't. People who don't want people like that here see they are not here.
Free internet poetry site is like no public restroom. The function is still able to be fulfilled.
People break the rules could be punished financially or socially ostracized. They could be triggered, and react reactively until they are banned.
They could simply not be here.

---

People take rules personally. The rules. Whether breaking them, avoiding them or having to moderate them.
Ignoring them or being ignorant of them is the most honest approach, as either way, you'll be made aware.
If there is no personal problem, there is no secular problem. That would be good both going and coming back.
One could do worse. (no ellipsis)

yah, we did currently have some discussion about that and there's not much sense beating it to death but in a nutshell nobody currently owns the house keys so changing the rules plastered all over the site is a non starter.

[Quixilated]

Technically, Addy owns the house keys.

As I have said before, every time “the rules” are used as a scapegoat for problems that were not caused by the rules, we have already stripped the rules away layer by layer until the only rules left are “don’t be a troll, don’t try to sell something, and don’t post non-poetry in a poetry forum.” I really don’t think that’s asking too much. If we removed those remaining rules, the site would become a hellscape where anyone still trying to post poetry would have to dig through the rubble just to find a poem. If you have a problem with those three rules, the thing you are searching for might not be a poetry site.

The reason we aren’t changing the rules is because the rules are not and never have been the problem. If you can’t follow a rule that requires only the bare minimum of human decency, then I really can’t help you.

As I have said every time it is brought up, we cannot publish poems from the site without the authors’ permission. As I have said before, you could start a “poems for publishing” thread and see if any current members are willing to contribute to a pigpen poetry published book. You could also reach out to poets from the past for permission and see if any will respond. I would absolutely buy one. But we can’t just snatch random poems from the archives and publish them in a book. I’m pretty sure that would be illegal. 

There are many reasons the site has declined. Fewer and fewer people read and write poetry thanks to internet distractions, shorter attention spans, and the ever-exhausting “is it ai” nightmare. We also lack the special draw of the “star poet” and/or “star moderator.” By this, I mean that we used to have some talented poets with big personalities, passionate opinions, dedicated loyalty to the site, and apparently infinite time on their hands. They drew people in and led by example. And it’s not that we don’t have members now who could be that (and were), but it’s a mantle that’s fun when it’s shared but heavy when it’s not. It is easy to burn out while waiting for others to join and help carry the load. The more active members we have, the easier it will be to generate more members.  The trouble is that it’s a slow process and people give up and leave before seeing results. Everyone wants to post poems and receive comments, but very few want to take the time to give comments to others. These problems are solvable, but it requires actual real-world time, dogged dedication, a commitment to poetry, a love for the site, selflessness, community effort, and other things that are, perhaps, slightly less fun and more effort than blaming the rules. In other words, if enough members actually put in real time and work, even when it stops being fun, we could probably wake this place up.  But I have already learned it would take more than two or three people to accomplish this.



Matsonosuperfan: 
To your original comment, the site used to be bustling and very active, but we had several members die in a relatively short timespan, including some of our main moderators/mentors and also the site owner. It was an incredibly heavy blow. The loss caused many of our other prominent members/mods to leave or take a sabbatical. We have never fully recovered our numbers, though we do have seasons of more activity and seasons of calm.

[rowens]

Don't change the rules or blame the rules or get ride of the rules: Get rid of the rules as a thing altogether.

Keep the rules, but get rid of the impact of the rules on the current members. By current members, I mean the Moderators. The Mods are the ones who suffer the rules.
Everybody else gets banned, follows the rules, is ignorant of the rules, breaks the rules and is told not to or is not told not to.

Many people don't post here because there are rules. I don't use indoors restrooms unless I shit, as I live near the woods. The internet is the woods, the people coming here to take shits have a since of urgency about them: that's why they break the rules. But many more people are using the restrooms at work, the bathrooms at home, are dead, don't need to excrete, like some of my Dulcineas, or are using the woods like I do. When they see woods with no trespassing without permission from owner of the land they go to other woods. I go to both, because I'm crafty. I have cookie-cutter shaped intestines. Everything I craft is pretty much the same but for how much and what I ate and drunk.

The rules aren't the problem the felt experience of the rules as ontological scaffolding is too much for people who express themselves through emotional poems rather than longform podcasts you don't have to pay for but have to at least join the Patreon to engage with.

[milo]

Don't change the rules or blame the rules or get ride of the rules: Get rid of the rules as a thing altogether.

Keep the rules, but get rid of the impact of the rules on the current members. By current members, I mean the Moderators. The Mods are the ones who suffer the rules.
Everybody else gets banned, follows the rules, is ignorant of the rules, breaks the rules and is told not to or is not told not to.

Many people don't post here because there are rules. I don't use indoors restrooms unless I shit, as I live near the woods. The internet is the woods, the people coming here to take shits have a since of urgency about them: that's why they break the rules. But many more people are using the restrooms at work, the bathrooms at home, are dead, don't need to excrete, like some of my Dulcineas, or are using the woods like I do. When they see woods with no trespassing without permission from owner of the land they go to other woods. I go to both, because I'm crafty. I have cookie-cutter shaped intestines. Everything I craft is pretty much the same but for how much and what I ate and drunk.

The rules aren't the problem the felt experience of the rules as ontological scaffolding is too much for people who express themselves through emotional poems rather than longform podcasts you don't have to pay for but have to at least join the Patreon to engage with.

I am not sure we actually have mods anymore

[dukealien]

When the Mods govern, the people are hardly aware that they exist. Next best is a mod who is loved. Next, one who is feared. The worst is one who is despised. If you don’t trust the people, you make them untrustworthy. The Mods don’t talk, they act. When their work is done, the people say, “Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!” (translation by "Stephen Mitchell", 1995)

Very well stated (distinctly Machiavellian, with a twist or two).  With the enhancement that the way a mod becomes despised is to abuse his/her position to promote or censor ideas which should, instead, simply be part of the flow (this is a problem we seldom, if ever,  have on the Pen but is endemic on all moderated boards).

What we *could* do is zero out all the participation stars and make everyone earn them again.  Perhaps for, or in addition to, different figures of merit such as qualifying critiques rather than simply posts.

[milo]

When the Mods govern, the people are hardly aware that they exist. Next best is a mod who is loved. Next, one who is feared. The worst is one who is despised. If you don’t trust the people, you make them untrustworthy. The Mods don’t talk, they act. When their work is done, the people say, “Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!” (translation by "Stephen Mitchell", 1995)

Very well stated (distinctly Machiavellian, with a twist or two).  With the enhancement that the way a mod becomes despised is to abuse his/her position to promote or censor ideas which should, instead, simply be part of the flow (this is a problem we seldom, if ever,  have on the Pen but is endemic on all moderated boards).

What we *could* do is zero out all the participation stars and make everyone earn them again.  Perhaps for, or in addition to, different figures of merit such as qualifying critiques rather than simply posts.

That seems like a strategy to decrease participation

[rowens]

The Mods need a makeover.
When one comes to the site, one could hear cold jazz, real live versions from records, none of the 8-chip stuff.
To get in the groove, Mods could go to and fro their outworld jobs on scooters.
CRNLSM could start wearing sunglasses when he plays music, even when he's recording from his livingroom.