Where's the female view and does it matter?

[wasellajam]

The majority of new members never post so it's hard to tell but guessing from usernames less women sign up, and surely less post.

I don't think this is an issue in our workshops, it certainly isn't for me. A writer, a reader, a critic here each comes from their own experience and to me the workshops are, as they have always been, a collection of voices focused on the poem.

But I was wondering about it so, as usual, I vented to milo privately and, as usual, he provided a thought provoking response. So with permission:

(*snipped chitchat*) I was reading the film thread and thought This is so male weighted, I hope some women post. Then I realized oh shit, that would be me lol. I don't know why that is or what to do about it. Any thoughts on this?

Yah - it isn't just here, it is most online communities (although the absence is felt much more on a poetry workshop), men dominate forum posts on almost every subject while women dominate social media posts.

There have been numerous studies around this exact topic and from what I have read over the years:

Men tend to be more involved in discussion of topic while women are more about building communities and connections.

My guess would be that women don't feel as safe on anonymous discussion boards while some men feel too safe.

So I call bullshit on the studies, maybe men are on the surface debating some bullshit point but they seem to me to also remaking connections and are often community minded. And women will engage if they give a shit about the topic.

On milo's guess, it seems to me that an anonymous board would feel safer. Maybe. I'm still thinking about this.

This is not something I've thought about before so my opinions are fluid, I'd love to hear what you all think.

[rowens]

Camille Paglia says it's because there is no female Jack the Ripper.

[busker]

There should be no female perspective. That idea alone smacks of petit bourgeoise pettiness.
Nobody is interested in the poet moaning endlessly about the imagined ills of the patriarchy.
JK Rowling and Agatha Christie weren’t women writers, they’re great writers. Patricia Highsmith. PD James.
Ah well, I suppose women write far better detective fiction.
Beth Shapiro. A phenomenal science writer.

A good poet only writes about the things that matter, like god and the heat death of the universe

[milo]

There should be no female perspective. That idea alone smacks of petit bourgeoise pettiness.
Nobody is interested in the poet moaning endlessly about the imagined ills of the patriarchy.
JK Rowling and Agatha Christie weren’t women writers, they’re great writers. Patricia Highsmith. PD James.
Ah well, I suppose women write far better detective fiction.
Beth Shapiro. A phenomenal science writer.

A good poet only writes about the things that matter, like god and the heat death of the universe

Yah - fine- but there should be actual females. And there are not. Or rather there are not very many and it is a known phenomenon across all online discussion forums not just a hypothetical

[rowens]

I'd prefer there were less people online.

But more women in porno forums.
No, SlimeyballsRoofer, I don't want to chat about Sydney Sweeney, but here's 15 poems I wrote about her. There's sublimation and there's THE Sublime.

[wasellajam]

There should be no female perspective. That idea alone smacks of petit bourgeoise pettiness.
Nobody is interested in the poet moaning endlessly about the imagined ills of the patriarchy.
JK Rowling and Agatha Christie weren’t women writers, they’re great writers. Patricia Highsmith. PD James.
Ah well, I suppose women write far better detective fiction.
Beth Shapiro. A phenomenal science writer.

A good poet only writes about the things that matter, like god and the heat death of the universe

I tried to make it clear I wasn't talking about the workshops, I never even noticed the imbalance there, in the poems or the critiques. It was reading my sister the film thread when we started laughing as it became obvious all the lists where masculine.

I'd prefer there were less people online.

But more women in porno forums.
No, SlimeyballsRoofer, I don't want to chat about Sydney Sweeney, but here's 15 poems I wrote about her. There's sublimation and there's THE Sublime.

Way to keep women off the site, nice work.

[rowens]

If they can't handle the heat, they can stay out of the kitch.., wait a minute . . .

[CRNDLSM]

Women sharing music on tiktok get flooded either with men creeping on them , or men trying to um actually everything they do. Criticising their playing, their recording, and their appearance. Some trends are begging other women to get them 'back on the right side' of the algorithm by liking and commenting, or calling out the haters. Way more women have to start on the defense sharing on social media than men

[wasellajam]

Women sharing music on tiktok get flooded either with men creeping on them , or men trying to um actually everything they do. Criticising their playing, their recording, and their appearance. Some trends are begging other women to get them 'back on the right side' of the algorithm by liking and commenting, or calling out the haters. Way more women have to start on the defense sharing on social media than men

For me that's all the more reason for women who write or enjoy reading poetry to take part in a site like this. Exposure is limited and although we're lightly moderated someone will step in if there's abuse. Just wondering why they seem less likely to become active members than men.

[rowens]

Always start on the offense. Women make men feel important. Women don't need men to feel important. Defense is a losing game.
Always be on the Offense. Sandra Bernhard is my ideal woman. Even though I wouldn't want to date her. She makes me feel unnecessary.

---

HUSHtag Get People Offline.

The world was fine before we had internet.

Make the Internet So Awful Nobody Wants To Be Here
Make a hat about it!!!!

[Magpie]

Damn I voted for 'Ella to leave us alone already' because i thought it would be funny and now I look like a twat when i realise that the other person who voted for it was Ella.

it was a trap. 

[wasellajam]

Damn I voted for 'Ella to leave us alone already' because i thought it would be funny and now I look like a twat when i realise that the other person who voted for it was Ella.

it was a trap. 

I'm always ready for people to say Fuck off already! I don't take it personally.
Thanks for voting!

You're always ready to try to balance the site when a post that seems hostile to women appears. It is noticed and appreciated.

[dukealien]

(Without voting for any of the offered candidates) It's pleasant to imagine other participants have genders, including other than those they claim and project.  I've noticed those who project female are more easily upset than the rest, but not exclusively.  This gives the site a certain tone - self-censorship, it could be called.  As Churchill put it, we shape our houses and thereafter they shape us; online, we shape our characters (and the rest follows).

So in answer to the question, the female view is in your head, and it matters.

[Bunx]

I feel like a site with diverse representation gives more comprehensive critique.

Plus it's nice to read a verity of works from different viewpoints.

[wasellajam]

(Without voting for any of the offered candidates) It's pleasant to imagine other participants have genders, including other than those they claim and project.  I've noticed those who project female are more easily upset than the rest, but not exclusively.  This gives the site a certain tone - self-censorship, it could be called.  As Churchill put it, we shape our houses and thereafter they shape us; online, we shape our characters (and the rest follows).

So in answer to the question, the female view is in your head, and it matters.

Great point about being whoever we want to be here and never really knowing for sure who anyone is. You all could be the same person for all I know. I know I'm me and present as much as possible as I am. I know milo exists, though he could be the rest of you too for all I know. That is all I know but I don't dwell on that stuff and just enjoy the site as it is.

Gender is fluid even in real life, and on line I've sure certainly had some surprises. But whether or not the genitals match the on line persona, it seems that to me that the majority of active members right now present as male.

Also, from my view (of course minus the years I was inactive), the members that present as male tend to get upset more easily but that of course is just my opinion vs yours, no biggie. I think members of this site tolerate a lot before they blow up.

As far as gender related view I don't think it's all in our heads. There are chemicals in play from birth through old age that influence how we view and react to life. Each body has its own individual complex balance and we can happily lean into it or fight it.

I don't think we can necessarily predict view based on sexual orientation, I just noticed the similarities in members best movies lists more than I noticed differences. You say it matters, what's a poll option you would have voted for? Sorry I missed it. Thanks for posting here.

I feel like a site with diverse representation gives more comprehensive critique.

Plus it's nice to read a verity of works from different viewpoints.

Thanks for voting, Bunx, great to see you posting.

[RiverNotch]

Personally I think that I shouldn't be speaking on this subject, as someone who largely presents as male, and that most anyone who presents likewise and has answered this thread in detail is either really brave, or really foolhardy xD

But if I were more of either, I'd just echo Bunx

[CRNDLSM]

Women in music


I definitely go looking for a female perspective, I definitely presented as 'knowing and explaining' but I wouldn't ever presume to know factually what women experience or how or why.

[Magpie]

I've been messing about with DeepSeek asking it for statistics relating to published poets, blog poets and workshop poets with the emphasis on workshop. It's been summarised to this. I've had to adjust the tables a bit because the formatting was messed up, but hopefully it makes sense.

Expanded Summary: Women Writing Poetry Across Different Spaces

Traditional Publishing (Literary Journals, Anthologies, Presses)

In traditional publishing, women consistently represent a minority of published poets, though they often achieve slightly higher acceptance rates when they do submit.

Metric                                 Percentage/Ratio            Notes
Women in published poetry         33-37%               Analysis of Irish publishing (2008-2017)
Men in published poetry              63-67%              Corresponding figure from the same analyses.
Women's acceptance rate           ~6.3%              Based on Raintown Review data (see workshop section).
Men's acceptance rate                 ~5.2%            Based on Raintown Review data (women accepted at slightly higher rate).

Interpretation: Women are under-represented in traditional poetry publishing not necessarily because their work is rejected more often (acceptance rates may favor women slightly), but because they submit less frequently.


Online / Blog World (Instapoetry, Social Media Poetry)

In the commercial online poetry space, women are the dominant force both in terms of audience following and book sales.

Women's commercial dominance Overwhelming majority Top-selling poets like Rupi Kaur and Donna Ashworth drive this market.

Rupi Kaur's ranking 4th bestselling poet in UK history Trailing only literary giants Ted Hughes and Seamus Heaney.
Donna Ashworth's followers 1 million+ on Facebook; 200,000 on Instagram Began as a poetry blogger in 2018.
Interpretation: When barriers to entry are removed (no magazine editors, no contests), women poets have built massive audiences and achieved unprecedented commercial success.


Poetry Workshop Websites (Most Detailed Data)

This category has the most granular data available, primarily from 2009-2011 analyses of forums like Able Muse and submission logs from journals like Raintown Review.

Data Source 1: Able Muse Forum (20-day analysis, ~2009-2011)
Workshop Board Poems by  Men   Women   Ratio (M:W)    Women's Share
Metrical Forum                    31      9           3.4 : 1               22.5%
The Deep End                     40      7           5.7 : 1               14.9%
Non-Metrical                       19      6           3.2 : 1               24.0% 
The Gazebo (free verse)       35     18          1.9 : 1               34.0%
Combined Total                  125     40          3.1 : 1               24.2%

Key Finding: Across all boards, women submitted only 24% of poems workshopped, meaning men submitted over three times as many poems for critique.


Data Source 2: Raintown Review (submissions log, May 2009 onward)
Metric                                        Men         Women
Number of submitters                   43             14
Number of poems submitted         155            48
Number of poems accepted            8               3
Acceptance rate                            5.2%        6.3%

Key Finding: Women had a higher acceptance rate (6.3%) than men (5.2%) , despite submitting far fewer poems overall.

Additional Submission Data (circa 2010)
Venue                 Men's Share         Women's Share
Poetry magazine        ~65%                 ~35%


Summary Table: All Statistics by Category
Category                                                   Women's Share         Men's Share        Key Ratio         
Traditional Publishing (Published Poets)              33-37%                  63-67%            ~1:2 
Traditional Publishing (Submission Rates)            ~35%                    ~65%             ~1:1.9 
Traditional Publishing (Acceptance Rates)            ~6.3%                    ~5.2%           ~1.2:1 
Workshop Websites (Able Muse - All Boards)         24.2%                   75.8%             ~1:3.1 
Workshop Websites (Metrical Forum)                    22.5%                   77.5%             ~1:3.4 
Workshop Websites (The Deep End)                    14.9%                    85.1%             ~1:5.7 Most skewed; likely advanced/critical board.
Workshop Websites (Free Verse/Gazebo)              34.0%                    66.0%            ~1:1.9 Least skewed; free verse board.
Workshop Websites (Submission Rates - Raintown)~23.6%               ~76.4%            ~1:3.2 Based on submitters (14 women / 43 men).

Key Limitations

Data Age: The most detailed workshop statistics are from 2009-2011. No more recent comprehensive studies were identified.

Sample Size: The Able Muse analysis covered only 20 days on one forum; the Raintown data covered one submission period at one journal.

Inclusive Categories: Modern workshops increasingly serve transgender and nonbinary poets, but historical data (2009-2011) typically used binary gender categories.

Participation vs. Identity: The statistics measure submission behavior (poems submitted), not necessarily the gender identity of all poetry writers in the general population.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some interesting stats although they are quite old, there is a definite pattern there. It's interesting that the blog world is dominated by women. I noticed that when I briefly partook in that world that it was mostly women with blogs that would post a lot of poetry or simply just poetry blogs owned by women. One of them was on here years ago, Heartafire who at one point was a keen member in the sense that she took part in giving and receiving critique yet at some point deemed it no longer necessary to use the site but continue to post on a blog. 

Do women not want critique as much as men? Are there  women that wouldn't want critique from men?

The three categories are an interesting comparison. Do we need to ask the same question regarding ethnic diversity?

[busker]

more women love to talk than men, and talk about themselves rather than, say, property prices in Ouagadougou. So of course you’d have more amateur women writers.
Men love to rant, which is how you get Hamlet’s soliloquies and Trump’s tweets.

Most amateur writers don’t want critique. They want to be heard, and all their pathetic first world problems. This is true of both men and women. The first should be taxed for stupidity, the second for whining.

Ethnic diversity is a red herring. There is nothing uniquely interesting about the lives of minorities. If you think burgers and chips are food, then you’re not someone whose life interests me. If you don’t, then you probably don’t write in English anyway.

Black men should write in their native tongue, and not a colonial one.

[dukealien]

I'm surprised the difference in acceptance rates (between presented genders) is so small - I'd have expected the women's acceptance rate to be higher on the presumption that editors are likely to be female (and feminist, that ideology permitting bias).  That may be reflected more strongly in the gender of the two most acclaimed published authors, though.

We should not, however, ignore the possibility that women, as a rule, write somewhat better poetry - by 20%, perhaps.  It may be a long-tail (of the distribution) phenomenon, a mirror image of really genius physicists being mostly male when the advantage in whatever quality or talent causes it being only 20% (for example) better there.

These qualities being impossible to reduce to numbers anyway, of course.  Even publication statistics can be a little screwy, as can social media followings.