Why Should I Edit?

[Leanne]

Yet if any man who has received the gift of poetic fervor shall imperfectly fulfill its function here described, he is not, in my opinion, a praiseworthy poet. For, however deeply the poetic impulse stirs the mind to which it is granted, it very rarely accomplishes anything commendable if the instruments by which its concepts are to be given shape are deficient.

-- Boccaccio, Giovanni. Genealogy of the Gentile Gods, Book IV, Chapter VII: “The Definition of Poetry, Its Origin, and Function”.

So, you’ve written a poem. The words poured straight from your heart, like a gift from the heavens; the poem just wrote itself, really. It’s perfect just the way it is.

Now.

Take a step back, let that fervour cool a little. Go for a walk, make a cup of tea, breathe – then very slowly, very carefully approach your poem. Don’t let it take over your mind again (that’s what poems do, you know, they’re like the Borg). Get yourself a red pen, or set your finger atop the “delete” button on your keyboard, because without a doubt you are going to make some changes.

I’m not going to tell you what they should be. I could suggest a few, and you could listen to my suggestions; then, with sovereignty over your poem (and not the other way around, remember), you can decide whether any of my suggestions would strengthen what you have already written. One of the most common reasons given for not editing a poem as per suggestions in a workshop is “but if I use your suggestion then the poem wouldn’t be mine”. If I were to extrapolate that argument, I could easily say “but if I use words that I didn’t make up, the poem wouldn’t be mine”, or “but if I use letters that someone else has used, the poem wouldn’t be mine” – how far back would you like to take it? The poem is ALWAYS yours (although some would argue that once you’ve written it and given it to others to read, it becomes theirs as well). As poets, our job is to use materials that people recognise – words – and fashion them into something unique.

There are tools we can use to improve our poems, but it’s always up to the poet as to which tools he/she wants to use. There are many schools of thought on what a poem should and shouldn’t be, but the fact is that many of these ideas are based on current trends and are most definitely not hard and fast rules. You must decide for yourself which direction you want your poem to take, and then use everything at your disposal to make sure it gets to where it needs to be. To ensure your success, read. Read everything that crosses your path: poems, myths, philosophy, newspaper articles, instruction manuals, whatever takes your fancy. You never know when you might find something you can use in your writing, and nobody can predict who’s going to write the next “defining poem of our generation”, or in what style. Listen to people, learn about the world, seek out opinions that differ from yours (and argue with them if you must, in the spirit of enlightenment). A poet sees poetry where nobody else would, and a great poet will make it so that others can see it too. Find out how poets have done this before you. Try out new styles, new voices, new viewpoints. Look for people whose poetry you admire and try to work out why you admire it. Ask questions. Get involved. Don’t be afraid to look or sound ignorant or silly – true ignorance is not knowing something and not trying to find out, even when the answer is offered to you. Everyone you meet will have something to teach you, and you will have something to teach them, no matter how small it might seem.

You will find many different techniques discussed on poetry websites. You may see others using terms you have never heard before, or talking about someone whose poetry you’ve never read. By all means, ask. Nobody knows it all to begin with – in fact, despite claims to the contrary, nobody ever knows it all. People who’ve been writing poetry will use a lot of terms that they’ve become familiar with and will often forget that not everyone knows what they’re talking about. They’ll usually be happy to explain, and more often than not they’ll also be happy to take a look at your poem, point out where it could be improved and give you suggestions on how to go about it. In turn, you could read one of their poems, share your ideas, point out how the poem does and doesn’t work and give them the benefit of a fresh perspective.

Editing your poem may involve changing or removing a word or phrase, or it might mean rewriting into a form that suits the poem better. Your poem will change, adapt, and become a better vessel for its essence. Think of it as evolution, instead of slowly decaying in a stagnant pond.

[Leanne]

In light of recent conversations, I thought I'd stick this here in discussion and open it up for a while. Let's see where it takes us.

[rowens]

I write with a pen and paper. I write it, and I copy it out again neatly if I make any mistakes or want any changes. Then I type it up. I don't use computers with spellcheck when I'm writing because to me that's lazy and weakens your editing abilities. Then I make any changes I want. Then I start another one.

[QDeathstar]

The quote doesn't say you should edit, only that you cannot be a good poet without understanding the tools.

I think if you argue with a critique or provide a response in defense of what you have written you'll most likely be greeted with "you asked for critique" and "you should be able to say in the poem without having explanation"


the only poems that get good worth while critique are ones that are super shitty, or ones that are already quite good and stir emotion.

Most poems however, can be mad-lib critiqued, and they often are.

[Leanne]

You're right. Boccaccio should have said "post online and workshop", but he didn't. He said talent is only the beginning and without effort it's worthless. Just as a will to edit is only the beginning: you also have to read widely, expose yourself to new things (not just people) and make mistakes.

[Lizzie]

Yet if any man who has received the gift of poetic fervor shall imperfectly fulfill its function here described, he is not, in my opinion, a praiseworthy poet. For, however deeply the poetic impulse stirs the mind to which it is granted, it very rarely accomplishes anything commendable if the instruments by which its concepts are to be given shape are deficient.

Depressing.

[Leanne]

How? Because it says that writing something Auntie Mabel says is wonderful, dear, is not reason enough to rest on your laurels? Shape your tools, folks, or content yourself with being one.

[billy]

i think what's being said in the op is this; when we make something we need to pay attention to it's imperfections, if they/we don't do this then why fucking bother. if we are capable of attaining a certain quality, level of the craft then do so and stop titting about with it. if peots don't be the best they can be, then they're inferior. for me this is true of all levels of poetry. i am an inferior poet because i don't put my heart and soul into it. if you want to be "the" poet, then you have have to give it all you are. i think leanne an excellent poet, she knows the devices she has oodles of experience but if she she doesn't give a poem her best she's just a good talented poet and not a great one. if a bad poet does the best they can they are great poets,

[Achebe]

At work, all my colleagues are atheist, economically conservative, socially liberal. It's boring, because there's no one to make fun of.
Likewise, it's boring if we all agree on obvious things. So I'll be contrarian.

Wordsworth said that poetry was 'passion recollected when calm' or something to that effect. But when was the last time you read Wordsworth. Had he been reading 'Tintern Abbey' on the TV today, we'd turn the volume down and say rude things*. No one reads him. I'd rather read Angus Grigg of the AFR, and that's stooping really low. Reading Wordsworth is certain to get your IQ down, milk to curdle, old age homes to lose residents. He's that boring. That's what happens when you recollect passion when calm.

On the other hand, look at Dylan Thomas. He practically didn't edit anything, which is why his poems make no sense but are wonderful. I have no proof that he edited nothing, but I get the feeling that all edits were superficial. He sort of wrote 'em poems and moved on to the next drink.

In Stephen Hawking's time, say his biographers, studying for your exams was looked down upon in Oxford. You either cracked them without preparation because you were that good, or you flunked. Similarly, with poetry, if you don't get it right first time round, you should be shamed like Cirsei Lannister, or just reconcile yourself to the existence of a mediocre hack (where art thou, Salieri?)




*George Harrison, A Hard Day's Night.

[Lizzie]

i think what's being said in the op is this; when we make something we need to pay attention to it's imperfections, if they/we don't do this then why fucking bother. if we are capable of attaining a certain quality, level of the craft then do so and stop titting about with it. if peots don't be the best they can be, then they're inferior. for me this is true of all levels of poetry. i am an inferior poet because i don't put my heart and soul into it. if you want to be "the" poet, then you have have to give it all you are. i think leanne an excellent poet, she knows the devices she has oodles of experience but if she she doesn't give a poem her best she's just a good talented poet and not a great one. if a bad poet does the best they can they are great poets,

That's cool, Billy. Well said.

[QDeathstar]

You're right. Boccaccio should have said "post online and workshop", but he didn't. He said talent is only the beginning and without effort it's worthless. Just as a will to edit is only the beginning: you also have to read widely, expose yourself to new things (not just people) and make mistakes.

The quote doesn't say effort. Maybe he did at some point, but the quote says instruments, eg talent and knowledge. So you an try all you want but if you have to no skill you'll still be a shit poet


The quote says that no matter how good the idea (subject) without the right instruments (talent, poetic knowledge(which giving and getting critique can help with)) the poem and poet will not be praise worth.

You have go put forth effort to get the tools of course....

---

You're right. Boccaccio should have said "post online and workshop", but he didn't. He said talent is only the beginning and without effort it's worthless. Just as a will to edit is only the beginning: you also have to read widely, expose yourself to new things (not just people) and make mistakes.

The quote doesn't say effort. Maybe he did at some point, but the quote says instruments, eg talent and knowledge. So you an try all you want but if you have to no skill you'll still be a shit poet


The quote says that no matter how good the idea (subject) without the right instruments (talent, poetic knowledge(which giving and getting critique can help with)) the poem and poet will not be praise worth.

You have go put forth effort to get the tools of course....

[rowens]

I don't know how relationships with editors are. I know a lot of online sites want to just say you're an idiot. Some books, like The Great Gatsby, have narrative inconsistencies subtly woven in: Some people would catch those and want them to be fixed, and if you say you put them in on purpose they say to not question their critique, you're just trying to save face. People like that you can't talk to.

---

The big thing that people who read my fiction complain about is how sometimes my narrators talk like they're people, and use incorrect language and dialect, even when they're not people. Not first person narrators or characters.

---

People act like that's not allowed, or unheard of.

[Lizzie]

How? Because it says that writing something Auntie Mabel says is wonderful, dear, is not reason enough to rest on your laurels? Shape your tools, folks, or content yourself with being one.

What laurels? Are there laurels I don't know about?

I think I'm quickly becoming Leanne's problem student. You know what they say: 80% of your time is spent on 20% of your students. 

I did get the book you recommended, and I'm quite looking forward to not reading it.
Kidding, I'm halfway through the foreword.

[Leanne]

The quote doesn't say effort. Maybe he did at some point, but the quote says instruments, eg talent and knowledge. So you an try all you want but if you have to no skill you'll still be a shit poet

The quote says that no matter how good the idea (subject) without the right instruments (talent, poetic knowledge(which giving and getting critique can help with)) the poem and poet will not be praise worth.

You have go put forth effort to get the tools of course....

Perhaps I'm reading too much into a single quote because I'm familiar with its context, which is why I attribute the quote (aside from it being properly good form) -- I tend to expect that if anyone wants to argue what a quote means, they would go to the source. But then again, we live in the age of memes and soundbites, so perhaps that's just inconsiderate of me.

"I mean, for example, the precepts of grammar and rhetoric, an abundant knowledge of which is required. I grant that many a man already writes his mother tongue admirably, and indeed has performed each of the various duties of poetry as such; yet over and above this, it is necessary to know at least the principles of the other liberal arts, both moral and natural, to possess a strong and abundant vocabulary, to be familiar with the monuments and relics of ancient civilizations, to have in one's memory the histories of the nations, and to be familiar with the geography of various lands, of seas, rivers and mountains."

Such knowledge and understanding does not fall, perfectly formed, from the milky bosom of the benevolent muse. Boccaccio, while agreeing with his zeitgeist and accepting talent as being from God, also argues that to rely purely upon what you have been given without improving it is vain and foolish. It's rather like being given a Thoroughbred colt and expecting it to win the Melbourne Cup just because you've put your nicest colours on it.

Lizzie, ALL of my students are problem students. You ask questions and keep returning, which puts you in the "not too shit to waste time on" bracket I will send you some laurels in the mail, but don't rest on them, they'll poke you in your buttocks.

[QDeathstar]

I'm not reading some old shit just to tell you you're wrong about the quote you quoted from some book written before the Internet. BC AD BI

[ellajam]

How? Because it says that writing something Auntie Mabel says is wonderful, dear, is not reason enough to rest on your laurels? Shape your tools, folks, or content yourself with being one.

What laurels? Are there laurels I don't know about?

I think I'm quickly becoming Leanne's problem student. You know what they say: 80% of your time is spent on 20% of your students. 

I did get the book you recommended, and I'm quite looking forward to not reading it.
Kidding, I'm halfway through the foreword.

The Stephen Fry? I'm through the first chapter, have to pick it up again, enjoying it so far. Ala rowens, Sad to say I got a retired hardback library copy on the cheap, sad it's not on the shelf but great for me.

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I like to edit because I get to know the poem better. During the initial writing I'm involved in the idea and the sound of the words, how to fit it all together. The editing process allows a step back, an analysis of what succeeded, what crapped out and what's walking the line. It's interesting.

[Leanne]

I'm not reading some old shit just to tell you you're wrong about the quote you quoted from some book written before the Internet. BC AD BI

Your troll pants have holes in them.

[QDeathstar]

I know. That's generally what happens when one stumbles into a stupid argument.

[Leanne]

Put your feet in your mouth like the interloper Q does

[UselessBlueprint]

Well, this thread was a fun read. It used to be that I would only edit during the initial phase of writing or if I had typos. I came here for a fresh and less-pretentious environment to work on poetry, and I like what I have seen so far. Has it helped me as a writer? I'd like to think so. I see a benefit to editing, most likely because, here, I have the knowledge-bank of some very skilled writers that are kind enough to freely share their "expertise."

I think I'm quickly becoming Leanne's problem student. You know what they say: 80% of your time is spent on 20% of your students. 

But 80% of your profit comes from 20% of your customers. Which lens do you prefer?