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Struggling with Conversion
"... it's a mistake to think that God is in nature,
or in our hearts, or in inanimate things. God
is exulted, and the world is sinful, and we are
of the world."
— a television preacher
Some days I almost do it, turn my Heart
over to the One, to the Son,
so lonely on this Earth I pass my time,
so little on this Earth in which to place
my incapacitated faith –
not in men, though; no, not in them.
Yes, today, again, I almost did it,
although I knew it must be Wrong
to think of God as separate from
a flower, a tree, a song – or too High
to share in painful things, like this hour;
yes, God must be in everything –
Not only in the Son, or in his church,
or in his father's book of fears –
or in Death's sickle come to claim us –
but in our hearts and tears; in this old
broken chair losing stuffing to the floor,
like my life – in that also there is God,
If God be at all.
=============
I've made a few changes since first posting the poem. You can see the original version in Kolemath's post below.
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What's up, Caleb. Good question.
(05-27-2016, 09:37 AM)Caleb Murdock Wrote: Struggling with Conversion
"... it is a mistake to think that God is inside of us
or inside of inanimate things."
— a television preacher
Some days I almost do it, turn my --line break after 'turn' ?
Heart over to the One, to the Son,
So lonely on this Earth I pass my time, --what does lonely look like? I like how lonliness (and desperation) puts God as a last resort
So little on this Earth in which to place
My incapacitated faith –this implies prior struggle. why?
Not in men, though; no, not in them. --why just men?
Yes, today, again, I almost did it, i like assault of commas here
Although I knew it must be Wrong cut this line?
To think of God as separate from
A flower, a tree, a song – or too High
To share in painful things, like this hour; I can appreciate the voice of this stanza; it follows the opening line's punctuation well
Yes, God must be in everything –
Not just in the Son, or in his myth,
Or in his father's book of fear, smart contrast of new and old testaments
Or in Death's sickle come to grab us,
But in our hearts and tears; in this old the lines of this stanza descend upon the reader but land softly; this is my favorite stanza
Broken chair losing stuffing to the floor, and good image contrast
Like my life – in that also there is God, cut 'like' ?
If God be at all. I infer the inconsistency in capitalization between father and God is intentional
This poem gets stronger as it goes. Strengthen the first stanza? Great lines!
=============
I tried not capitalizing the first word of every line, and didn't like the way it looked.
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Thank you, Kolemath. You seem to like the poem, which makes me happy, although the lines you want me to cut make me wonder if you understand it all.
To me the "father" of the Bible and God are not the same thing, thus I didn't capitalize "father". I didn't mean to contrast the old and new testaments. I'm simply referring to the Bible as a "book of fear".
I've changed one word in that stanza.
When I wrote, "Not in men", I wasn't excluding women in particular. I was using the term "men" in the general sense, to mean everyone -- kind of like the universal "he". However, I do believe that men have screwed up the world royally, and I think women would do a better job of it.
I'm not going to try to explain the central concept of the poem at this time in case someone else wants to comment.
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Really cool poem, I'm happy you shared it. I like the idea you are trying to get across.
(05-27-2016, 09:37 AM)Caleb Murdock Wrote: Struggling with Conversion
"... it is a mistake to think that God is inside of us
or inside of inanimate things."
— a television preacher
I like this beginning..preachers are fun to listen to, many are so certain they are right..I don't know if it would fit, but given his certainty, it could be cool to point out the hypocrisy too.. preaching "Thou shalt have no gods before me" and then going on to praise the bible as the only truth. Or that God is not the burning bush, and yet, in there he is. I don't know, there are many places in the bible that you can read ambiguously that now only means the one trope that has been agreed upon by the church. So eager not to find a deeper meaning in anything. Still might be too much to expand the quote, you will find what works.
Some days I almost do it, turn my
Heart over to the One, to the Son,
So lonely on this Earth I pass my time,
So little on this Earth in which to place
My incapacitated faith – might cut incapacitated? For me it made it harder to understand the first time around anyway.
Not in men, though; no, not in them.
Yes, today, again, I almost did it,
Although I knew it must be Wrong I agree that this line could be cut, that the idea must be wrong is well articulated in this stanza anyways.
To think of God as separate from If you cut the previous line, it could go "thought of god.."
A flower, a tree, a song – or too High Maybe line break after song?
To share in painful things, like this hour; Maybe line break after things?
Yes, God must be in everything – Yes could be Yet?
Not just in the Son, or in his church, Might think of changing church to temple, as "my body is my temple". Then it could be read not just in the son, not just in my body, not just in the building or organization, in everything.
Or in his father's book of fear, It reads cool as analogy for old and new testament too, I would keep it that way.
Or in Death's sickle come to grab us,
But in our hearts and tears; in this old
Broken chair losing stuffing to the floor, Nice to use something "insignificant" and broken to get the point across.
Like my life – in that also there is God,
If God be at all. Cool ending
=============
I tried not capitalizing the first word of every line, and didn't like the way it looked.
Thanks for sharing it.
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Joseph, thank you for your comments.
Like Kolemath, you seem to like the poem, but the many changes you suggest are an indication that I haven't written clearly. I pride myself on writing clearly, but apparently I'm not.
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Unless the content of my comments indicate I did in fact not get it, my suggestions is only an indication you posted in Mild critique, not that the writing was not clear the first time around.
I might have gone over the top, it was done in the spirit of well-meaning though.
All the best to you and good luck with the poem!
Edit* I think your writing style is clear, my comments was a token of appreciation.
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Hi Caleb
What I like about this poem is your use of in-rhymes and slant rhymes that give the lines a sort of natural music. I like how you've not lost control over your central argument over 3 stanzas. I also like in particular, this evocative line:
...in this old
Broken chair losing stuffing to the floor,
I found the poem to be easy to understand, without ambiguities.
Some areas for improvement are:
1) At least one instance where you've not been attentive to the metaphor: "Or in Death's sickle come to grab us" doesn't make sense as a sickle doesn't grab. Anthropomorphised, Death can come with a sickle to grab you. But the sickle itself can at best slice, not grab you.
2) The lines below, which are rather whingey, and made doubly so by the extra emphasis provided by the 'so'. It's never a good idea to directly talk about how you feel, but always a good one to indirectly bring them up through poetry.
So lonely on this Earth I pass my time,
So little on this Earth in which to place
~ I think I just quoted myself - Achebe
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Thanks for the reply, Caleb. Think, though, people will read the father=God concept; that's why I commented on capitalization, because your lack of capitalization on 'father' creates distance between the bible's treatment and the the poem's conception of God. I meant this as a complement, not as a critique.
Think, too, the new testament isn't a book of fear (why do you think it is?), excluding revelations perhaps, whereas the old testament is (in many ways) founded on the fear of a jealous god, so to the the line contrast (whether you intended or not) juxtaposes Christ (NT), and angry god (OT), and death (a topic of all religions). (just my reading)
On men meaning everyone, is this semantically accurate? maybe 70 years ago... universal 'he' is falling out of favor (in writing especially) these days; i haven't seen a text use it that was published recently, (but I haven't read everything).
Looking forward to further clarification. 
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(05-27-2016, 05:49 PM)Joseph Didis Wrote: Unless the content of my comments indicate I did in fact not get it, my suggestions is only an indication you posted in Mild critique, not that the writing was not clear the first time around.
I might have gone over the top, it was done in the spirit of well-meaning though.
All the best to you and good luck with the poem!
Edit* I think your writing style is clear, my comments was a token of appreciation.
I'm sorry if what I said sounded in any way offensive -- it wasn't intended to be. Both you and Koleman want me to cut the line "Although I knew it must be Wrong", which seems to me to be a necessary segue. Also, a large number of crits to the meaning of a poem suggest that the cirtic isn't getting the flow of the meaning. Your comments were definitely appreciated, but it does seem that I have done something wrong in explaining my feelings in the poem.
(05-27-2016, 10:06 PM)kolemath Wrote: Thanks for the reply, Caleb. Think, though, people will read the father=God concept; that's why I commented on capitalization, because your lack of capitalization on 'father' creates distance between the bible's treatment and the the poem's conception of God. I meant this as a complement, not as a critique.
Think, too, the new testament isn't a book of fear (why do you think it is?), excluding revelations perhaps, whereas the old testament is (in many ways) founded on the fear of a jealous god, so to the the line contrast (whether you intended or not) juxtaposes Christ (NT), and angry god (OT), and death (a topic of all religions). (just my reading)
On men meaning everyone, is this semantically accurate? maybe 70 years ago... universal 'he' is falling out of favor (in writing especially) these days; i haven't seen a text use it that was published recently, (but I haven't read everything).
Looking forward to further clarification.
I'm glad you came back with further comments.
I don't know which part of the world you are in (I could probably find out if I looked at your profile), but here in the U.S. evangelicals are very influential, and they focus a great deal on the old testament, which is definitely filled with a lot of judgementalism and fear-mongering. I recently read that the new testament can be read to supercede the old testament, but that is not a universal view. I'm not a Christian, by the way. One of the reasons I'm even thinking about all this is that my best friend from childhood is an evangelical minister, and he is famous for asserting that the entire Bible is the literal word of God, and that the six-day creation in Genesis must be taken literally with no nod to science. He criticizes other theologians who interpret the 6-day creation symbolically. For example, some of them interpret "day" to mean an age or era, not just 24 hours.
Anyway, because so many evangelicals say that the Bible must be taken as a whole, and because the old testament is so judgemental, I've come to see the entire Bible as a "book of fear".
Now, let me say that this poem is, to a certain extent, a bit of propaganda. My own religious views are pantheistic (i.e., I believe that God = the universe, that we exist within God, and that God's conscience occupies everything, including all things and individuals). This poem is an attempt to push that idea within the context of a conversion crisis. Basically I'm trying to say: "I am tempted to convert but cannot because the idea that God is separate from us is not consistent with how I feel about God." That's the message of the poem (in case it's not obvious).
Yes, the universal "he" or male figure who represents all of humanity is still with us, though to a much lesser degree. To remove the sexism, that line would have to become "Not in people, though; no, not in them", which adds a syllable and removes that off-rhyme between "men" and "them". But I'll make that change. I should add, however, that the Bible is quite sexist, so using the word "men" is consistent with the subject of the poem.
Thank you again for your additional comments.
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I don't know which part of the world you are in (I could probably find out if I looked at your profile), but here in the U.S. evangelicals are very influential, and they focus a great deal on the old testament, which is definitely filled with a lot of judgementalism and fear-mongering.
I couldn't agree more; this comment seems to echo mine. just look at deutronomy 28 if you want a real example.
I recently read that the new testament can be read to supercede the old testament, but that is not a universal view. I'm not a Christian, by the way. One of the reasons I'm even thinking about all this is that my best friend from childhood is an evangelical minister, and he is famous for asserting that the entire Bible is the literal word of God, and that the six-day creation in Genesis must be taken literally with no knod to science. He criticizes other theologians who interpret the 6-day creation symbolically. For example, some of them interpret "day" to mean an age or era, not just 24 hours.
This is all true, about christian fundamentalists, but the poem doesn't question fundamentalism; it questions christianity.
Anyway, because so many evangelicals say that the Bible must be taken as a whole, and because the old testament is so judgemental, I've come to see the entire Bible as a "book of fear".
again, nothing to disagree with, but your phrasing doesn't capture the bible as a whole. when you say 'his father's book of fear' you're disassociating christ. if the whole bible is the book of fear, then it's christ's book too, not just his father's.
I should add, however, that the Bible is quite sexist, so using the word "men" is consistent with the subject of the poem.
good point
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First of all, I've corrected my misspelling, knod > nod.
We've gotten a little off-topic, but I think that's okay as long as it doesn't go on for post after post.
We live in an age of increasing partisanship. It isn't only the evangelicals who are becoming more extreme, but the Catholics and many Protestant denominations. Many of the most extreme Christian ideas are shared by people of those other denominations, though they may be less vocal about them. To an outsider -- i.e., a non-Christian -- all of Christiandom can look extreme. I believe that Jesus was a great individual, and that it was the Apostle Paul who set the religion in the wrong direction; but what's done is done. For whatever it's worth, my religious views are based on the Seth Material (the readings of a psychic named Jane Roberts). Roberts said some interesting things about Christ.
Oh, let me add that if not for the fear/tears rhyme, I probably would have called the Bible a "book of rules".
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Hi, Caleb. Thanks for the follow-up.
You certainly have strong opinions on the topic. How might some of this content be more visible in the poem?
Oh yeah, might 'Conversion Struggle' be a better title? It reminds me of old Bosch painting...
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Hi, Caleb. I think I understand now why you wanted me to read this poem. It is one from the heart of hearts. I right off wanted to critique the title. I don't think it's accurate to the poem.
I see conversion as something that happens only after surrendering what it is that will be converted. There cannot be a struggle with conversion until one actually puts it in the hands of the expert. I think this may be a poem concerning spiritual things, not so much metaphor, but the word conversion still means the same thing, whether spiritual or physical. For instance, here's an example: I want a conversion done on this plain van, but, I know before I can, I have to present it to the one who will do that for me. So, yes, I need to do that...Here I go! I surrender the van to the expert, knowing he will gladly pull my precious treasure into his garage, pour out his care, and my van will begin the process of the conversion of my dreams. Sometimes the main event of surrendering is the part we struggle with, we want the van to be better, we want it to be converted, newer...but we kind of like its old way, too. We like the cool plastic cup holders and we like the outdated, chrome spokes on the hub caps, the ones dad gave us. Oh, no...we see that a conversion will change the van completely and maybe we aren't ready, for whatever reason. But we know Mahogany wood trim with unstained cupholders and a shining of Grandpa's hubcaps is a must. So we surrender it into the hands of someone we trust will make it right.
Because your poem seems to be reflecting something of a spiritual conflict and after reading its contents, I want to say that you might want to change the title, maybe something like Struggling with Salvation, or Stuggling with the Gospel? Something apart from conversion?
Struggling with Conversion
"... it's a mistake to think that God is in nature, Interesting bit of context I would have liked to
or in our hearts, or in inanimate things. God know more about what was said/who/history, etc.
is exulted, and the world is sinful, and we are Or given background to the quote
of the world."
— a television preacher
Some days I almost do it, turn my Heart
over to the One, to the Son,
so lonely on this Earth I pass my time,
so little on this Earth in which to place
my incapacitated faith –
not in men, though; no, not in them. Great stanza.
Yes, today, again, I almost did it,
although I knew it must be Wrong I don't know why a capital W is painted here.
to think of God as separate from
a flower, a tree, a song – or too High
to share in painful things, like this hour;
yes, God must be in everything – He is, it's His art, His Creation
Not only in the Son, or in his church,
or in his father's book of fears –
or in Death's sickle come to claim us – Death often represents sin & eternal
but in our hearts and tears; in this old separation from God.
broken chair losing stuffing to the floor,
like my life – in that also there is God,
If God be at all. This is where I read the struggle, but not one concerning conversion,
but of surrender to God.
I feel as though the narrator is perhaps describing a rejection of the Gospel of Peace because of something the TV evangelist preacher did or said. But as I read on, I saw a glimmer of hope "the no, not man", recognizing that fallible humankind will always let us down, especially when it comes to our souls. I accept who-I-am as imperfect, though I strive to be better through a conversion of faith where I find myself growing, spiritually. Perhaps there is a loss of the Holy Spirit of God involved that prevents the narrator from seeing Truth. Perhaps the Spirit of God has been removed from where the narrator is. I believe that once we surrender to Him, God will never let us down, and He will take care of us and move us to do His will whether we even know it or not. We will often fail and fall, and find it necessary to run back into His arms over and over. It's almost like everything we see is sort of like...well, the way a well designed computer program works, made by Him. It's all His Creation, His doing, every part of it. Every tree, every flower, every life, everything. It's just we must choose which path we will take, and our choices will earn a fixed end result. We are only here wearing these earthsuits of flesh to decide whether we will receive or reject God's simple plan of salvation, that is, trusting in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (and what He did on the cross, bearing all our sins upon Himself so we could enter a sin free heaven), and receive Him, wholeheartedly, into our hearts as Savior. Then after that we see how well we shine His Light in an ever darkening world.
And so the ending was very troubling. If God be at all. Made me cry, actually. But that one word: "If" somehow sparks a shimmer of hope. Thank you so much for allowing me to critique. Saddest thing I've read all day. Forgive my poor writing. I am struggling today.
there's always a better reason to love
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nibbed, you are sincere if nothing else.
I can't change the title to "Struggling with Salvation" or "Struggling with the Gospel" because I don't believe in salvation or the Christian Gospel.
Your concept of what conversion is doesn't quite match mine. Two of the definitions of "conversion" are:
-- "change from one religion, political belief, viewpoint, etc., to another."
-- "a change of attitude, emotion, or viewpoint from one of indifference, disbelief, or antagonism to one of acceptance, faith, or enthusiastic support, especially such a change in a person's religion."
So my title really means "Struggling with Change", and that seems reasonable to me. So I'll be keeping "Conversion" (meaning "change") in the title.
If we get too philosophical, someone will swoop in with red letters telling us to stay on topic (the topic being the poem), so I'll make just one more point.
"If God be at all" expresses doubt. Unlike many devout Christians, I don't see doubt as antithetical to belief. We have to have our moments of doubt in order to have our moments of belief. In other words, until something revelatory happens which provides us with confirmation of our beliefs, doubt is unavoidable (this world doesn't seem to provide much confirmation). What's sad to me isn't the doubt we occasionally feel about what we believe, but the certainty that some people achieve that causes them to see doubt as an enemy.
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It's normal to doubt.
Just looking at a ladybug can be help to us,
or even the perfection of the fronds that make up a fern.
Sunsets are the best!
Your poem was well structured and moving.
I am sorry I am awkward at giving great tips
as the others here. I am admittedly limited.
Very best wishes to you!
there's always a better reason to love
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No, you did just fine. Your comments were interesting.
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Fine poem; the [slant/internal] rhymes are quite good. Flower, hour, son, them, wrong, from, etc. I like the "sickle come to claim us" though grabbing was also 'accurate' and I like the chair's stuffing on the floor. The last line of stanza three is a mouthful, and made me reread the third stanza in order to grasp the sentence's syntax (what is "like" my life?). Anyways, "like my life" is basically just a restatement of "in our hearts and tears" but it is fine because at least it gets to the point. Maybe a better way to phrase it would be 'floor;\ In my life--God is also there\ \ If God is at all.' or 'If there is a God at all.' Which would be a melodramatic if suitable ending.
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Very interesting suggestions! I immediately copied them into the poem file to see how they work. This is what I came up with from your suggestions:
Not only in the Son, or in his church,
or in his father's book of fears –
or in Death’s sickle come to claim us –
but in our hearts and tears, and in this old
broken chair losing stuffing to the floor.
In my life, God is also there,
If God is at all. / If there is a God at all.
I'm not sure I like that better than what is already there, but I'll mull it over. To me, the final line of the third stanza reads smoothly, but I'm apparently not seeing what you are.
The interesting thing about this poem is that the first three lines of the third stanza took me a decade to write. What was there originally was just drivel. Persistence paid off.
Thank you for noticing the internal and off rhymes. Try as I might, I can't do perfect end rhymes, though I love the sound of them.
Thanks for your comments!
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The quote seems to focus your struggle not with conversion, but converters.
(05-27-2016, 09:37 AM)Caleb Murdock Wrote: Struggling with Conversion
"... it's a mistake to think that God is in nature,
or in our hearts, or in inanimate things. God
is exulted, and the world is sinful, and we are
of the world."
— a television preacher
Some days I almost do it, turn my Heart
over to the One, to the Son, the fact yourE considering it suggests even though you don't believe, you want to, but the tone suggests a weakness, like giving up on something you already strongly believe
so lonely on this Earth I pass my time,
so little on this Earth in which to place
my incapacitated faith –
not in men, though; no, not in them.
Yes, today, again, I almost did it,
although I knew it must be Wrong if you knew it must be wrong you already believe, just seem to doubt not God but your own Interpretation of him for those by televised evangelists
to think of God as separate from
a flower, a tree, a song – or too High
to share in painful things, like this hour;
yes, God must be in everything – this stanza is blatantly already converted, you're saying what God must be, against what others say God must be, you're not arguing his existence but others misinterpretation of him
Not only in the Son, or in his church,
or in his father's book of fears –
or in Death's sickle come to claim us –
but in our hearts and tears; in this old
broken chair losing stuffing to the floor,
like my life – in that also there is God,another stanza that tells the world what God is, opposed to how you believe others misinterpret him, I don't see a struggle with conversion or change even, just a disagreement with others ideologies
If God be at all. So I don't believe this line, like you actually question his existence when you state so much factually about him.
I think the poem would be improved either by deleting the quote or the last line or both. Good luck to you
=============
I've made a few changes since first posting the poem. You can see the original version in Kolemath's post below.
Peanut butter honey banana sandwiches
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CRNDLSM, thank you for your comments, which are spot on. My intention was to portray the speaker as struggling between his natural instincts (a pantheistic view of God) and a desire to join the Christian community because it would alleviate his loneliness. Not only would the speaker have a ready-made community to join, he would have a ready companion in Jesus since Christians believe that you can have a personal relationship with Jesus (in spirit, at least). Pantheists like myself are rare enough that we do not have the support of a community, thus the talk of being lonely in the poem. I portray the speaker as wavering in the first stanza, but then re-confirming his pantheistic views in the second and third stanzas -- but then, in the final line, he remembers that he isn't even sure that God exists. This mirrors my own experience too -- I have strong faith in my vision of God, but I've had no revelatory experiences to confirm that faith, and there are times when I doubt my own views.
The third stanza is very anti-Christian (as I am), and therein is perhaps the major flaw of the poem. I take the speaker from wavering in the first stanza to being certain of his views in the third stanza. That constitutes quite a change in just three stanzas. The truth is that this poem is something of an anti-Christian diatribe. However, there have been times in my life when I momentarily felt myself drawn to the Christian view. The whole idea that God was embodied by an individual who once walked the earth and is still available to know is very seductive. In fact, in my opinion, that's the reason the religion has been so successful and has lasted so long. God personified -- that's powerful stuff.
I hope you appreciate that I'm striking a delicate balance in this poem between conveying some unusual concepts and keeping the poem emotional and lyrical. If I do too much explaining of the pantheistic concepts, then the lyricism is lost.
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