Ever felt like this?

[milo]

At the end of the day, this is not intended as a thread about me.  I will cheer myself up or I won't, and the world will go on.  This is about you:  what makes you question yourself?  What does poetry really mean to you and to your world?  Is it art or just another method of jerking off?  

And when you jerk off, is milo's picture in front of you?

If you have to ask you know the answer is yes.

[aschueler]

At the end of the day, this is not intended as a thread about me.  I will cheer myself up or I won't, and the world will go on.  This is about you:  what makes you question yourself?  What does poetry really mean to you and to your world?  Is it art or just another method of jerking off?  

And when you jerk off, is milo's picture in front of you?

Rambly response

Poetry to me and my world?  

It's a number of things all rolled up.  Mostly it's expressing in words something that generally can't be expressed in words.  It's art in the same meaning of the word with visual arts;  the words themselves are colors, but they all have their own personalities when you look at the connotations, rhythms and local use.  It's putting all that together into something coherent or nearly so, for the purpose of ... well, whatever but generally expressing something to myself or someone else or both.  Sometimes it's just words that sound very nice, like Adirondack or hordeolum.

It's better than masturbation.  When I was a philosophy minor, that I used to call mental masturbation.  It was enjoyable and you thought you did something, but you end where you started.   

So everyone is giving you advice, you could have seen that coming.   Don't know your personality (although is amuses me, and most people I know who claim to be misanthropes really only wish they were) well enough to be specific;   but put poetry down for a bit and do something else, like reading fiction (Bruno Shulz or maybe Borges).  Go to some museums or read some math books.   

But honestly, it's not something you can just stop doing.


Also, looking at how poets die or are not appreciated isn't really limited to or specific to poetry.  Just googled Frost, he died at 88 rather quickly and not that bad.

[tectak]

My finger's stuck up Tectak's bum, hooray, hooray!
It makes it hard for him to stand
or sit or shit, poor Tectak,
It's stuck, it's stuck, it's stuck down south in Tectak.
In muck, in muck, in muck down south in Tectak.

Crow...Crow...are you listening? This is lyric writing at the cutting edge

[Achebe]

more kipper than man
Even lovers cannot breathe the ocean. 

One of these will be my new signature

---

more people have heard of Dante than of Niels Henrik Abel. Almost none know who the world's greatest salesman of auto refinish paint or diabetic placebos has been.
The fame of poets is richly undeserved, and their preponderance to navel gaze borders on the obscene.
Anonymity is the norm - it's better to accept this and write only for the gods, who after all the philosophising and existentialising and a few thousand  years or so of worshipping the wrong deity, dwell behind their mountain ramparts of limestone and iced muttsleen.

[Leanne]

Also, looking at how poets die or are not appreciated isn't really limited to or specific to poetry.  Just googled Frost, he died at 88 rather quickly and not that bad.

This is true. And Frost was not executed, or threatened with execution, or lashed and condemned, or left to rot in a cell. Then again, Frost wasn't of a nationality that we find it easy to ignore.

[Tiger the Lion]

In simple terms, Leanne not writing saddens me. She could write a sonnet about a sock and move me. But that is the selfish reader talking. It makes me think of my sad little Salinger collection, a mere 7 inches of space on my bookshelves. All my wanting will not widen it.
In this case I am confident the volcano cannot lay dormant long. Lucky for us all.
Paul

[Leanne]

You want a sonnet about a sock?

In 1942, my grandpa died
and grandma never knew. She kept his heart
in letters, one each week; she never cried,
just posted them, came back and sat. Apart
was how they'd been for years when he was there,
that stoic man and woman, duty-bound --
the letters brought them closer. All her care
twined sentences in lover's knots. She wound
a lock of hair in one, sent socks and Spam
and came back home to bake and knit. No word
returned. She cleaned, made marmalade and jam,
til 1946, November 3rd,
the postman brought no letter, just a pack:
one lock of hair, two socks, no husband back.

[Achebe]

You want a sonnet about a sock?

In 1942, my grandpa died
and grandma never knew. She kept his heart
in letters, one each week; she never cried,
just posted them, came back and sat. Apart
was how they'd been for years when he was there,
that stoic man and woman, duty-bound --
the letters brought them closer.  All her care
twined sentences in lover's knots.  She wound
a lock of hair in one, sent socks and Spam
and came back home to bake and knit.  No word
returned. She cleaned, made marmalade and jam,
til 1946, November 3rd,
the postman brought no letter, just a pack:
one lock of hair, two socks, no husband back.

Did you just make this up now? wow.
Do you have any advice for half-baked writers who struggle with not having experienced real sadness in their lives? Who get more depressed by a pulled muscle than the untimely death of ancestors past?
How do they write poetry, whom practically nothing has made aghast?

[Keith]

Ever felt like this?

Truth is, no I haven't and in some ways I wish I had, using poetry is this manner would bring a purity to it that would, in my opinion, shine through. The question did make me think though and don't get me wrong, poetry plays a big part in me being me. I started writing the week I join the Pigpen and I saw it as a way of writing down all the photographs I never took, all the little exchanges that some how have influenced my life, I guess poetry to me is the jumbled diary I never kept, there is always a truth or a memory in these diary poems and I invest a lot of emotion when writing. There has been many times when my ability gets in the way and I feel I am going backwards, I recently started to complete last year NaPo simply because I was stuck, it did help me, and I think its because of why I write, each new topic links to a memory that I can draw on. Sometimes the results are bland and don't work but sometimes they do and these are the ones I care about. One last point and its an important one is the workshopping on this site is second to none and the only place I really trust people with my poems.
Best Keith

[Leanne]

Do you have any advice for half-baked writers who struggle with not having experienced real sadness in their lives? Who get more depressed by a pulled muscle than the untimely death of ancestors past?
How do they write poetry, whom practically nothing has made aghast?

Make shit up.  That's what I do.  My grandfather is 94 and on his fourth wife, all of whom he has mistreated, but it's a nice fiction that he might have instead been lost in the war and left behind a wife who still cherished his memory.

Focus on the small things.  What might that pulled muscle represent?  Was it your body's way of telling you that wasn't the direction you were supposed to go in?  What might have happened if you'd ignored it and gone anyway?  Or how does your pulled muscle compare to the injuries sustained by a small child who has run afoul of a fragmentation grenade?  

I learned empathy.  It's an intellectual experience.

And yes, I just made it up.  Paul is inspirational .

[Leanne]

Ever felt like this?

Truth is, no I haven't and in some ways I wish I had, using poetry is this manner would bring a purity to it that would, in my opinion, shine through. The question did make me think though and don't get me wrong, poetry plays a big part in me being me. I started writing the week I join the Pigpen and I saw it as a way of writing down all the photographs I never took, all the little exchanges that some how have influenced my life, I guess poetry to me is the jumbled diary I never kept, there is always a truth or a memory in these diary poems and I invest a lot of emotion when writing. There has been many times when my ability gets in the way and I feel I am going backwards, I recently started to complete last year NaPo simply because I was stuck, it did help me, and I think its because of why I write, each new topic links to a memory that I can draw on. Sometimes the results are bland and don't work but sometimes they do and these are the ones I care about. One last point and its an important one is the workshopping on this site is second to none and the only place I really trust people with my poems.
Best Keith

Those photographs are some of the most authentically moving poems I've experienced, and I thank you for them. Of course you write some shit -- that's what makes the roses grow

[aschueler]

T

You want a sonnet about a sock?

In 1942, my grandpa died
and grandma never knew. She kept his heart
in letters, one each week; she never cried,
just posted them, came back and sat. Apart
was how they'd been for years when he was there,
that stoic man and woman, duty-bound --
the letters brought them closer.  All her care
twined sentences in lover's knots.  She wound
a lock of hair in one, sent socks and Spam
and came back home to bake and knit.  No word
returned. She cleaned, made marmalade and jam,
til 1946, November 3rd,
the postman brought no letter, just a pack:
one lock of hair, two socks, no husband back.

Was going to stop on this post until the above.  Holy shit.

[Todd]

I'm a big fan of the Make Shit Up camp.

I'm a confessional poet that confesses about a lot of crap I've never experienced and some that I have. It's better that way.

[cidermaid]

Ever felt like this?

Truth is, no I haven't and in some ways I wish I had, using poetry is this manner would bring a purity to it that would, in my opinion, shine through. The question did make me think though and don't get me wrong, poetry plays a big part in me being me. I started writing the week I join the Pigpen and I saw it as a way of writing down all the photographs I never took, all the little exchanges that some how have influenced my life, I guess poetry to me is the jumbled diary I never kept, there is always a truth or a memory in these diary poems and I invest a lot of emotion when writing. There has been many times when my ability gets in the way and I feel I am going backwards, I recently started to complete last year NaPo simply because I was stuck, it did help me, and I think its because of why I write, each new topic links to a memory that I can draw on. Sometimes the results are bland and don't work but sometimes they do and these are the ones I care about. One last point and its an important one is the workshopping on this site is second to none and the only place I really trust people with my poems.  
Best Keith

Keith loved your response and what you shared, I have always been able to connect with your poetry and as your official stalker and fan I feel it is only fitting to mention that what you have expressed here most closely resembles what is behind a lot of my writing.  Sadly I am in a not too dissimilar place to Leanne at the mo.  Want to write, but equally don't want to write. Lost all sense of creativity....but it is still in there and driving me up the wall with odd bursts that jump out and go onto replay for days on end.
 
Re- the site generally, Previously I would have added an amen to your last comment, but to my view, the feedback has taken on a bit a of a scatter gun effect recently. (Not just for my poems - talking about what I see happening for others).  Some poems get loads of attention and excellent feedback and some get only the most superficial of comments with no real meat for the poet to work with. Also, sometimes a poet is out of fashion or has never been in fashion and it seams that no matter what they write it gets over looked.  No obvious reason or suggestion as to why or how to help.  (I know how hard the mods and others work on the site to ensure everyone gets a shout and to keep the spirit of the site as intended).  Think it is the age old problem of the disparity between how takers and givers operate and as such this is more a plea to ask people to occasionally check out some of the posts with only a couple of shallow comments and see if you can give then a crumb or two of consideration.  Probably going to attract some flack for saying this  - not saying this to those who work on the site to keep it running or even those who already are so generous with their time and what they offer by way of crit.   Just using this space to say something I've been thinking for a long time.
When I read Leanne's original post I thought hell yes I'm a depressed writer Oh well according to this post this is all normal so no worries then!...but then the thought came... when we do write and really want to workshop it there is no real support to beat the bugger into shape and then we feel even more dejected and just want to quit writing completely.
Actually I can amen your comment - this is the best site going for crit and open discussion.  Where else on the web could I belong to a group and post up a negative comment and have it accepted for what it is ?  ( And the crit when it flows, is second to non and I cannot thank every one who does share their thoughts enough.  This is an amazing community and should be cherished).

NAPM is looming large on the horizon.  Hope it is running again this year as for the last two years it has been a writing life saver.  (Sort of love / hate thing going on with it.  It is a hard task master, but then it yields a lot of fruit...some of which is actually worth consuming).

[Leanne]

AJ, I think the lack of participation -- or the lack of really meaty participation -- is part of the reason I just stopped feeling like writing poetry was worthwhile, or at least the two things seem to have coincided.. And that doesn't mean on my own poems, because I've always drawn ideas from the creative discussion that surrounds me and that's from all posts. There are few things that disappoint me and all the other mods/admins more than the members who take so much more than they give -- but we're simple creatures, as you know, and it doesn't take much for us to be turned around. We are perhaps disproportionately impressed when we see someone accept criticism and genuinely seem to care about their poetry and that of other people.

I write to explore humanity, and humanity sure takes a dive when we see the same old generic responses from supposed poets who might as well be robots.

[Achebe]

Some poems get loads of attention and excellent feedback and some get only the most superficial of comments with no real meat for the poet to work with. 

An excellent observation. Examining some possible causes around (by no means 'MECE' as management consultants love saying) below. Note that I have gone from symptom to solution, assuming an underlying relationship. I am getting old and impatient with logic.

1. Design issues

1.a  It is too easy for a new post to move into the limbo of page 2 in the matter of a working week. Particularly if a joker newbie decides to crit a poem from 2013, and a sincere pigpenner posts an edited version of his/her poem within a few days of each other. 
Possible solutions: - i) a new poem could be allowed to remain on page 1 for a minimum number of days, something like a sticky, unless it has received a threshold number of crits, in which case it can move on sooner ii) there could be a separate forum that pulls together poems with <3 crits. I have seen something like this ("posts with 0 replies") on other fora iii) if a poem that's more than 12 months old is critted, the crit should be added to the thread below the poem, but the notification should go only to the OP: the post itself shouldn't show up at the top of the billboard.

1b. The landing page has a panel showing latest posts, but not latest poems across all pages. Perhaps we could have the latter on the right panel instead of the blogroll.

1c. I would favour increasing the number of fora. I think 'Misc' and 'Fun' are too alike. Having a few fora for specific themes such as 'religion' or 'bonking the twin sister' would be nice. The structure of the old PFFA was good, in that regard.

2) People / process issues

2a. I don't think that anyone who can write at a basic level will willingly post crappy crits. Most of the latter comes from newbies who are actually new to poetry, so can't blame 'em. So let's just get more newbies, and some habitual critters in the process. The SEO on this site is worth checking. In certain geographies, this is the second hit on 'poetry forum' searches, after PFFA. In certain others, not so much. At least, that's been my observation when using google, call me a tech-noramus if you want to.

2b. Posts on the Sewer, Poetry Practising Exercises, Fauxu Choo Choo, General Discussion, and the Pig's Arse (the forum itself, not the suite of fora under the name), and replies to one's own threads should not contribute towards post count.

---

I write to explore humanity, and humanity sure takes a dive when we see the same old generic responses from supposed poets who might as well be robots.

beep beep bopp....
(robot voice)
There is but a handful of posters on this forum who are genuine poets, the rest being dabblers in the dark art. On the other hand, our lives are more interesting because we are agreeably young, terribly dashing, work for the MI6, and have a dozen girlfriends in the fashion industry.

[Leanne]

Good points, let's just clarify a couple, starting with 2b. Post count is utterly irrelevant and indeed resets periodically -- the only time it is important is when someone signs up and has to have a 3-moderated-post minimum. Those posts can be allowed anywhere but only count toward full membership if they are in one of the three critique forums (novice, mild or serious).

1c. Miscellaneous should not be the same as Fun. It was intended as a forum for experimental works, mode fusion etc, and poems that didn't really require critique but were still not "For Fun", which is supposed to be purely humorous. The only reason it isn't is because too few people are amusing...

For the record, I am absolutely 100% opposed to labelling poetry in themed fora. You do this, you get loads of action in the "adult" or "sex" sections, plenty of poems in "emo bullshit" and nothing that transcends categories.

[Leanne]

Also for the record, PFFA is not the model we want to follow. None of them have it right. We've been around the traps and left. I say this only because I know people who say "on xxxx we did this" always mean well, but going backwards is entirely the wrong direction.

[Leanne]

I've never been thrown off a poetry site, so I have no respect for their rules

[Achebe]

I've never been thrown off a poetry site, so I have no respect for their rules

In the absence of the preceding confessional (now deleted), it looks like you're talking to yourself.