[split] The Nothing

[milo]

Oh, silly things are amusing, and long live the silly debate about 'til and till

You are right, of course, that just because a word was first chronologically, doesn't make it any better than its usurper. I mean, if that were the case I would be suggesting 'until' is a poor choice of words, too. the whole 'predates' thing can be scratched from my argument (to a certain degree, only because I really struggle writing and to go into it would be painful and boring and fruitless). But the rest stands, i.e. there is a perfectly good word with a capital W that is in a general linguistic sense pronounced exactly the same way as the word 'til which is a contraction (and an unnecessary contraction, given there is a WORD that is in a general linguistic sense pronounced exactly the same way as the contraction). I suppose my argument is if you know better, then why use 'til? I can understand why someone who didn't know would use 'til. But I do not understand this 'personal preference' thing based on a subjective pronunciation. And the argument 'who knows how people pronounce things' or whatnot, is the language equivalent to the pub-philosophy question 'yeah, but how do you know you're not dreaming?'

The fact is, I am sure that few, if anyone, reads 'til any differently than till, and the only effective difference I can see in using it is that those who do know better will think it is an error in education. It could be a rebellion, I like that.

Oh, and the 'confusion' argument about till is ridiculous

and in the words of the great Bertrand Russell "stop arguing with me, I am write."

well - leave no word untilled.  It is good to see someone with a passion for the details - even when they're wrong.

(BTW - til predates all 3)

[ellajam]

I prefer until and til. Not long ago I used til or 'til and a critique suggested till was correct. When I looked it up I had to agree, but then they deleted their post, so they may have had a change of heart. I like this thread, it gives me the freedom to be "wrong" if I choose to.

Till Til we meet again,
ella the guesser

[shemthepenman]

Oh, silly things are amusing, and long live the silly debate about 'til and till

You are right, of course, that just because a word was first chronologically, doesn't make it any better than its usurper. I mean, if that were the case I would be suggesting 'until' is a poor choice of words, too. the whole 'predates' thing can be scratched from my argument (to a certain degree, only because I really struggle writing and to go into it would be painful and boring and fruitless). But the rest stands, i.e. there is a perfectly good word with a capital W that is in a general linguistic sense pronounced exactly the same way as the word 'til which is a contraction (and an unnecessary contraction, given there is a WORD that is in a general linguistic sense pronounced exactly the same way as the contraction). I suppose my argument is if you know better, then why use 'til? I can understand why someone who didn't know would use 'til. But I do not understand this 'personal preference' thing based on a subjective pronunciation. And the argument 'who knows how people pronounce things' or whatnot, is the language equivalent to the pub-philosophy question 'yeah, but how do you know you're not dreaming?'

The fact is, I am sure that few, if anyone, reads 'til any differently than till, and the only effective difference I can see in using it is that those who do know better will think it is an error in education. It could be a rebellion, I like that.

Oh, and the 'confusion' argument about till is ridiculous

and in the words of the great Bertrand Russell "stop arguing with me, I am write."

well - leave no word untilled.  It is good to see someone with a passion for the details - even when they're wrong.

(BTW - til predates all 3)

yep til predates all the rest. And I am entirely right, or write, it doesn't matter, apparently; because that is my personal preference

[Leanne]

I can't believe you guys are still going on about this... but I assume it will just continue 'til one of you explodes.

I've always used 'til, simply because to me I'm contracting until and till (while not incorrect) is not my preference due to the confusion of tilling the fields. As my writing has developed, I've found ways to not use either unless it suits the voice and even then, I generally try to find an alternative, because of just this kind of pedantry

[milo]

I can't believe you guys are still going on about this... but I assume it will just continue 'til one of you explodes.

I've always used 'til, simply because to me I'm contracting until and till (while not incorrect) is not my preference due to the confusion of tilling the fields.  As my writing has developed, I've found ways to not use either unless it suits the voice and even then, I generally try to find an alternative, because of just this kind of pedantry

I hope it never ends 
till the earth
with your bare hands

[shemthepenman]

Oh, silly things are amusing, and long live the silly debate about 'til and till :)

You are right, of course, that just because a word was first chronologically, doesn't make it any better than its usurper. I mean, if that were the case I would be suggesting 'until' is a poor choice of words, too. the whole 'predates' thing can be scratched from my argument (to a certain degree, only because I really struggle writing and to go into it would be painful and boring and fruitless). But the rest stands, i.e. there is a perfectly good word with a capital W that is in a general linguistic sense pronounced exactly the same way as the word 'til which is a contraction (and an unnecessary contraction, given there is a WORD that is in a general linguistic sense pronounced exactly the same way as the contraction). I suppose my argument is if you know better, then why use 'til? I can understand why someone who didn't know would use 'til. But I do not understand this 'personal preference' thing based on a subjective pronunciation. And the argument 'who knows how people pronounce things' or whatnot, is the language equivalent to the pub-philosophy question 'yeah, but how do you know you're not dreaming?'

The fact is, I am sure that few, if anyone, reads 'til any differently than till, and the only effective difference I can see in using it is that those who do know better will think it is an error in education. It could be a rebellion, I like that.

Oh, and the 'confusion' argument about till is ridiculous.

and in the words of the great Bertrand Russell "stop arguing with me, I am write."

well - leave no word untilled.  It is good to see someone with a passion for the details - even when they're wrong.

(BTW - til predates all 3)

til is a sesame seed.

---

:DDDD you are all driving me insane :D it is TILL TILL TILL!!!

fuck, someone be on my side :D

[milo]

Oh, silly things are amusing, and long live the silly debate about 'til and till

You are right, of course, that just because a word was first chronologically, doesn't make it any better than its usurper. I mean, if that were the case I would be suggesting 'until' is a poor choice of words, too. the whole 'predates' thing can be scratched from my argument (to a certain degree, only because I really struggle writing and to go into it would be painful and boring and fruitless). But the rest stands, i.e. there is a perfectly good word with a capital W that is in a general linguistic sense pronounced exactly the same way as the word 'til which is a contraction (and an unnecessary contraction, given there is a WORD that is in a general linguistic sense pronounced exactly the same way as the contraction). I suppose my argument is if you know better, then why use 'til? I can understand why someone who didn't know would use 'til. But I do not understand this 'personal preference' thing based on a subjective pronunciation. And the argument 'who knows how people pronounce things' or whatnot, is the language equivalent to the pub-philosophy question 'yeah, but how do you know you're not dreaming?'

The fact is, I am sure that few, if anyone, reads 'til any differently than till, and the only effective difference I can see in using it is that those who do know better will think it is an error in education. It could be a rebellion, I like that.

Oh, and the 'confusion' argument about till is ridiculous.

and in the words of the great Bertrand Russell "stop arguing with me, I am write."

well - leave no word untilled.  It is good to see someone with a passion for the details - even when they're wrong.

(BTW - til predates all 3)

til is a sesame seed.

---

DDD you are all driving me insane it is TILL TILL TILL!!!

fuck, someone be on my side

I have heard through the grapevine that this person supports your position:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstei...unt_Tillie

[cjchaffin]

i see the word "till" and i immediately think "cash register" 

[shemthepenman]

I haven't seen that, thanks.

but let's face it, it is one man shouting 'TILL TILL TILL' against a crowd shouting ''TIL 'TIL 'TIL'. If only I had coldplay as a point of reference, Id (yes I said Id, it is my personal preference, i often pronounce Id more quickly than I'd, but sometimes I don't (or dont) due, jue, or jew, to the ambiguity) be sorted, regardless of reason or logic.

CAB DRIVER: Well, you can prove anything with facts or logic, can't you.
STEW: Well yeah... wait a minute, that is the most fantastic argument I have ever heard! 'I don't believe in facts or logic, I find it tends to cloud my judgement. I prefer to rely on instinct and blind prejudice.

[ellajam]

Id vs I'd

I followed that thread with interest also.

words, marks, breaks, space, so many bits and pieces turn a poem. It's all worth ranting about.

I found a poem here by billy with till used for until, it's possible some of our preferences are nationality based.

Worth throwing around, regardless.

[bena]

Poor shem. I absolutely adore words that are a tad ambiguous just for the sake of the wonderful layering to be had. That goes for you, bella and your Id, I'd like to know where your ego is.

[ellajam]

'Egoes round and round till 'is field is broken, Id rather put my feet up.

Happy New Year, bean.

[shemthepenman]

Poor shem.  I absolutely adore words that are a tad ambiguous just for the sake of the wonderful layering to be had.  That goes for you, bella and your Id, I'd like to know where your ego is.

:*
and I am poor, until I till the till.

---

'Egoes round and round till 'is field is broken, Id rather put my feet up.

Happy New Year, bean.

I remember a poem on here that everyone royally panned for (at least in part) its absence of the space between full-stop and following word (e.g. I love you.yes,I do.I love you.). The space is only a standard, not right or wrong, but it is a standard because it helps. To not put the space must have a purpose, a universal purpose that does something beyond, 'oh that is my personal preference'. This just means everything is permitted and why the hell are we critiquing poetry in the first place, then, with that as a principle? My personal preference is that my personal preference is better than your personal preference about my personal preference... I win

[rayheinrich]

I remember a poem on here that everyone royally panned for (at least in part) its absence of the space between full-stop and following word (e.g. I love you.yes,I do.I love you.). The space is only a standard, not right or wrong, but it is a standard because it helps. To not put the space must have a purpose, a universal purpose that does something beyond, 'oh that is my personal preference'. This just means everything is permitted and why the hell are we critiquing poetry in the first place, then, with that as a principle? My personal preference is that my personal preference is better than your personal preference about my personal preference... I win

Ray's Meta-Universe openly accepts your personal preferences and hereby assigns them Personal.Space.#:

593344612847564823378678316527120190914564856692346034861045432664821339360726024914 -
127372458700660631558817488152092096282925409171536436789259036001133053054882046652 -
138414695194151160943305727036575959195309218611738193261179310511854807446237996274 -
956735188575272489122793818301194912983367336244065664308602139494639522473719070217 TERM

We sincerely thank you for your personal preferences and promise to honor and cherish them.
As sincerely as always,
Ray's Meta-Universe




from xkcd

[shemthepenman]

I remember a poem on here that everyone royally panned for (at least in part) its absence of the space between full-stop and following word (e.g. I love you.yes,I do.I love you.). The space is only a standard, not right or wrong, but it is a standard because it helps. To not put the space must have a purpose, a universal purpose that does something beyond, 'oh that is my personal preference'. This just means everything is permitted and why the hell are we critiquing poetry in the first place, then, with that as a principle? My personal preference is that my personal preference is better than your personal preference about my personal preference... I win

Ray's Meta-Universe openly accepts your personal preferences and hereby assigns them Personal.Space.#:

593344612847564823378678316527120190914564856692346034861045432664821339360726024914 -
127372458700660631558817488152092096282925409171536436789259036001133053054882046652 -
138414695194151160943305727036575959195309218611738193261179310511854807446237996274 -
956735188575272489122793818301194912983367336244065664308602139494639522473719070217 TERM

We sincerely thank you for your personal preferences and promise to honor and cherish them.
As sincerely as always,
Ray's Meta-Universe




from xkcd

[bena]

snortsnort you guys crack me up.

Ray, shouldn't that number be:

011001110110111101101111011001110110111101101100011100000110110001100101011110000010000001101111011100100010000001110111011010000110111100100000011001110110100101110110011001010111001100100000011000010010000001110011011010000110100101110100?

[ChristopherSea]

snortsnort you guys crack me up.

Ray, shouldn't that number be:

011001110110111101101111011001110110111101101100011100000110110001100101011110000010000001101111011100100010000001110111011010000110111100100000011001110110100101110110011001010111001100100000011000010010000001110011011010000110100101110100?

mel, you are showing your age in your regression back to a binary coding system!

[shemthepenman]

snortsnort you guys crack me up.  

Ray, shouldn't that number be:

011001110110111101101111011001110110111101101100011100000110110001100101011110000010000001101111011100100010000001110111011010000110111100100000011001110110100101110110011001010111001100100000011000010010000001110011011010000110100101110100?

mel, you are showing your age in your regression back to a binary coding system!

the binary system was discovered by Leibniz.  Is Mel really that old? I suspected as much

[bena]

Yes shem, I'm really that old ;-P

I think I look pretty good for my age.

[rayheinrich]

snortsnort you guys crack me up.  

Ray, shouldn't that number be:

011001110110111101101111011001110110111101101100011100000110110001100101011110000010000001101111011100100010000001110111011010000110111100100000011001110110100101110110011001010111001100100000011000010010000001110011011010000110100101110100?

Way too small.

shemthepenman's Personal.Space.# in decimal is:

59334461284756482337867831652712019091456485669234
60348610454326648213393607260249141273724587006606
31558817488152092096282925409171536436789259036001
13305305488204665213841469519415116094330572703657
59591953092186117381932611793105118548074462379962
74956735188575272489122793818301194912983367336244
065664308602139494639522473719070217


shemthepenman's Personal.Space.# in binary is:

10001101 01110110 11100001 10010001 10010100 11111001 11111101 10100011
10100101 01001111 11010111 01111101 01001100 00011110 11110011 01100001
11100110 01101100 10011101 11011001 11000010 00011000 11011101 01010110
00100101 10100111 01101100 00111011 10101101 11010110 10110110 01111011
11100111 10001000 10010110 10110011 10011101 11111011 00110110 10001101
11000000 00010111 00010110 01111111 10111100 11111100 10011010 00101001
01111110 00001100 00110110 10111101 01010011 11000001 01001101 00011011
01001111 10111100 10101110 01101100 10111111 00100110 01010000 01011101
11101101 11011000 11100100 11101100 11010011 00100001 01000010 10111110
01000101 10000100 00011111 00110010 00101001 00111001 11100000 10110110
00001011 00101000 00011000 10100110 10001010 01000100 00010100 10001000
01000010 10110110 01010101 01010011 11000000 01000100 00001110 10000100
10010111 01011011 10110011 00001001 01010010 11001001 11100001 00011000
00111100 00100111 11100110 11111110 01100010 10010000 00010111 10100100
11000000 11001010 10011011 01110110 10111111 11000010 10011001 01101011
11000000 00111010 00011001 00010111 11100100 11111000 01010110 01001110
00111111 10100011 11110110 00001000 00111110 11110111 00111000 00000110
0101

but who's counting

note for the computatively curious:

shemthepenman's Personal.Space.# is a semiprime (number with exactly two prime factors)
from a now-defunct public-key cryptography system that happened to be rattling around in
my computer for what seemed to be no good reason, but was really being saved by one
of the various gods for use as shemthepenman's Personal.Space.#  

As Roseanne Roseannadanna's father used to say: "It's always something".