Said the Priest to the Elder

[metalfan91]

You must go, you don't belong here anymore.
You will flee to the lands of the West.
You must become the un-inhabitants,
For our destiny to manifest.
This world was given to us by powers up high,
By steel and by plague, you shall abide!"

Your beasts and machines bring terror to us;
Your iron fist concealed by velvet glove.
The land now bears the name of your oft-gloried one:
Conqueror, who has slain our daughters and sons.
Please leave, go away! Here's no glory for us.
By steel and by plague, this can still be undone.

"Fools! Savages! You haven't the sense
to claim your home on our continents.
We've come to civilize and spread the Holy Flame.
This wild, ancient, fertile place,
All for us to tame."

-----------------------------------
A mediocre performance of this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45M-YJU...-DENAzIk5Q

[QDeathstar]

There is not enough imagery or allusion for me to understand what event you are referring too.

---

Perhaps you could drop a name of a country in the second stanza there...

[metalfan91]

There is not enough imagery or allusion for me to understand what event you are referring too.

---

Perhaps you could drop a name of a country in the second stanza there...

Actually this can allude to many instances. I'm trying to be all-inclusive. I thought it was clear with words like West and destiny to manifest that I was speaking mainly of N. America, because that's where I live. But this also can allude to slave traders in Africa selling their own people to the Western world. It can also be in S. America, where there was a much more fleshed out relationship between colonizer and colonized. "Your beasts and machines bring terror to us" is supposed allude to that.

This isn't one act of conquering, but all acts of it. It is not only the Spanish subjugation of the Aztecs, but also the Aztecs' subjugation of other local people.

[QDeathstar]

Ok, but why priests.....

---

I don't feel anything after reading the poem.... Perhaps that is the problem.

[Tiger the Lion]

Hey Metalfan, Sounds like you've been listening to Iron Maiden on a loop.
Seriously though, I'm not sure how the Priest and Elder are needed here. If anything, they confused the issue for me. The 2nd stanza isn't in quotation marks either, so I can't tell if it's the same one way dialogue. There are some decent lines here though, even if some of the rhymes are forced. Also, I agree you might want to narrow the scope. "All inclusive" only works when there are free drinks involved!
Keep at it,
Paul

[metalfan91]

Hey Metalfan, Sounds like you've been listening to Iron Maiden on a loop.
Seriously though, I'm not sure how the Priest and Elder are needed here. If anything, they confused the issue for me. The 2nd stanza isn't in quotation marks either, so I can't tell if it's the same one way dialogue. There are some decent lines here though, even if some of the rhymes are forced. Also, I agree you might want to narrow the scope. "All inclusive" only works when there are free drinks involved!
Keep at it,
Paul

In instances of conquest, missionaries are used to assimilate indigenous people, usually under the threat posed by a militia. The quotations denote the priest speaking on behalf of the "civilized' people and the stanza without quotes is the elder speaking on behalf of the "savages." I wasn't sure if that was apparent enough. Also, I usually name my poems after the first phrase, but I thought this one sounded cooler. The point of this piece is to have a general look at things through time, but I can see about narrowing it.

[LorettaYoung]

"You must go! You don't belong here anymore!
You will flee to the lands of the West.
You must become the un-inhabitants,
For our destiny to manifest.
This world was granted to us by powers up high,
By steel and by plague, you shall abide!"

Your beasts and machines bring terror to us;
Your iron fist concealed by velvet glove.
Our lands now bear the names of your oft-gloried ones:
Conquerors who've slain our daughters and sons.
Please leave, go away! Here's no glory for us.
Stay your hand, brothers, this can still be undone.

"Fools! Savages! You haven't the sense
to claim your home on our continents.
We've come to civilize and feed the holy flame,
This wild, ancient, fertile place,
All for us to tame."

---

Obviously your title and reference to the holy flame indicates a religious context, but other factor point to envioronment, history and conquered people. Could you elaborate please? I feel disjointed by line breaks when reading, although there are some good lines, I feel a lot are forced and have trouble relating them. I do sense the stretch for form. Best, Loretta

[metalfan91]

"You must go! You don't belong here anymore!
You will flee to the lands of the West.
You must become the un-inhabitants,
For our destiny to manifest.
This world was granted to us by powers up high,
By steel and by plague, you shall abide!"

Your beasts and machines bring terror to us;
Your iron fist concealed by velvet glove.
Our lands now bear the names of your oft-gloried ones:
Conquerors who've slain our daughters and sons.
Please leave, go away! Here's no glory for us.
Stay your hand, brothers, this can still be undone.

"Fools! Savages! You haven't the sense
to claim your home on our continents.
We've come to civilize and feed the holy flame,
This wild, ancient, fertile place,
All for us to tame."

---

Obviously your title and reference to the holy flame indicates a religious context, but other factor point to environment, history and conquered people. Could you elaborate please? I feel disjointed by line breaks when reading, although there are some good lines, I feel a lot are forced and have trouble relating them. I do sense the stretch for form. Best, Loretta

Yes, there is religious context; environmental, societal, etc. The overarching context is the relationship between conquerors and the conquered. I took examples through history, specifically the conquest of Mexico, which was especially devastating. I also made a reference to the Manifest Destiny 'doctrine' of North America. Following that, it could allude also to the slaves shipped from West Africa to the West Indies (Caribbeans, Cuba, Haiti) and the Americas by European and African warlords. (In short, I took a few history classes this semester). However, I intended this to feel vaguely of a fantasy piece as well and leave unclear as to which instance of colonization I allude to. I felt it better to leave it vague, yet concise rather than specific and overwrought. Can you say which line(s) feel forced?

Also, It would probably help to that say these are lyrics to a song I've been composing. In it, I use clean vocals (not-growled) for the priest and growled vocals for the elder. This is to emphasize the perceived distinctions between "savage" and "civilized."

Thanks for reading me.

[Tiger the Lion]

Thought it might be song lyrics. Reminds me of "Immigrant Song" a bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC-T0rC6m7I

[nb]

Hi metalfan91!

I intended this to feel vaguely of a fantasy piece as well and leave unclear as to which instance of colonization I allude to. I felt it better to leave it vague, yet concise rather than specific and overwrought.

I get it.

I like the poem-as-dialogue, between the foreign/conquering priest and the native elder. This could play out in any of a thousand places (the Americas, Polynesia, Australia, etc.) around the world in many, many eras. I like the universal aspect of it.

This

You will flee to the lands of the West

adds a provincial note that doesn't jibe with the universal aspect. Maybe drop the "West" reference. Why flee? Why not just die? So many native Americans, Polynesians & Aborigines died from diseases to which they had no antibodies (measles, smallpox, etc.).

You could tinker with phrasing here & there but I get it. Nicely said.

nb

[i pray to pills]

"Conquerors who've slain our daughters and sons."
"We've come to civilize"
--

i don't agree with the use of these verses. these words [slain/ civilize] are so much spoken in both sides of history that they became hollow in some way.

[Erthona]

I think I pretty much got all of it (before I read the comments), but then again I've read history. I think the problem of this is it outlines that history (especially in what is now the United States), but does not really inspire anything, it just kind of falls flat, nor does it seem to know what it intends to accomplish. My response at the end was, "OK, so what".


Dale

[i pray to pills]

I think I pretty much got all of it (before I read the comments), but then again I've read history. I think the problem of this is it outlines that history (especially in what is now the United States), but does not really inspire anything, it just kind of falls flat, nor does it seem to know what it intends to accomplish. My response at the end was, "OK, so what".


Dale

i think that is justified for it looks like a piece of something; when i read it i saw a portrait of attitudes; models of attitudes; or the pure forms of attitudes that crossed human history; which is seem from a neutral point of view; there's a lack of judgement since each character repugnates the other, and only their visions appears.

[metalfan91]

Hi metalfan91!

I intended this to feel vaguely of a fantasy piece as well and leave unclear as to which instance of colonization I allude to. I felt it better to leave it vague, yet concise rather than specific and overwrought.

I get it.

I like the poem-as-dialogue, between the foreign/conquering priest and the native elder. This could play out in any of a thousand places (the Americas, Polynesia, Australia, etc.) around the world in many, many eras. I like the universal aspect of it.

This

You will flee to the lands of the West

adds a provincial note that doesn't jibe with the universal aspect. Maybe drop the "West" reference. Why flee? Why not just die? So many native Americans, Polynesians & Aborigines died from diseases to which they had no antibodies (measles, smallpox, etc.).

You could tinker with phrasing here & there but I get it. Nicely said.

nb

Well, I was trying to be universal in our reality. But, in the poem, it is a fantasy. It is the act of conquering set in a fantasy universe, but alluding to it universally in ours. The West is just a region in this fantasy setting. But it can allude to westward movements on Earth. I chose flee because it means they still have something to live for. They could either stay and die or flee and live. I could still think about tinkering with it.

Anyway, thanks for reading and getting it. It's always nice when someone gets it.

---

"Conquerors who've slain our daughters and sons."
"We've come to civilize"
--

i don't agree with the use of these verses. these words [slain/ civilize] are so much spoken in both sides of history that they became hollow in some way.

In what ways don't you agree. And by what do you mean "both sides of history" (there are only 2?)? This history of colonization is multi-tiered. For example, the Spanish conquered the Aztecs,yet, before that, the Aztecs conquered neighboring societies and those people fought for control with eachother. There are multiple sides right there.

(Or by "both sides" do you mean the Us v Them paradigm?)

The sentiments were very real in history. I don't think the extensive use of those words signify a hollowness, rather, I think they signify what they mean to different people at different times and the complexities arising therein. There are plenty of primary accounts expressing the views toward the "civilized" and the "savage." Of bringing the light of reason to perceived irrational pagans/heathens.

[i pray to pills]

[quote='metalfan91' pid='167652' dateline='1402945862']
[quote='nb' pid='167339' dateline='1402573133']
Hi metalfan91!

In what ways don't you agree. And by what do you mean "both sides of history" (there are only 2?)? This history of colonization is multi-tiered. For example, the Spanish conquered the Aztecs,yet, before that, the Aztecs conquered neighboring societies and those people fought for control with eachother. There are multiple sides right there.

----


i understand you based the poem on the image of civilization's struggle against barbarians and its reversal interpretation (natives' struggle against invasors).

that picture could be enriched avoiding to put their views of history so directly, for their speech sounds too much like war propaganda; and the propaganda hides the complexity your refers to in your comment.

but before that I also believe that propaganda, and the feelings under it, could be better depicted, by working on that verses i referred to.

[stajas]

I get your point on the invading, but if you're also gonna add in religion and perspective switching, it gets kinda much and a bit confusing. Still there's some cool stuff here

[metalfan91]

As I'm getting more replies, I think I want to clear up that this I don't want this to come off as implying that all indigenous peoples are good and all European newcomers were evil. There are both within each ethnicity/culture/etc. This dialogue between a native 'elder' and a foreign 'priest' is supposed to represent the spirit of this relationship between the colonized and colonizer in all its forms. I will edit it.

---

Priest:
"You must come with us, you don't belong here anymore.
Or you will flee to the Land of the West.
You must become the un-inhabitants,
For our destiny to manifest.
This world was given to us by powers up high,
By steel and by plague, you shall abide!"

Changed the first part by having the priest give an ultimatum. He gives an option to assimilate or go further west as the Cherokee were forced to on the Trail of Tears. I also thought of Bathory's One Rode to Asa Bay while writing this, a song of a fictional Nordic people's contact with Chrsitian invaders.

Elder:
"Your beasts and machines bring terror to us;
Your iron fist concealed by velvet glove.
The ground now bears the name of your oft-gloried one:
Conqueror, who has slain our daughters and sons.
Please leave, go away! Here's no glory for us.
Let us sheathe our bloodied blades,
Before this cannot be undone!"

Changed 'our land' to 'the ground.' Also, to keep in line with a fantasy theme, I changed 'conquerors with the singular figure, 'Conqueror.'

Priest:
"Fools! Savages! You haven't the sense
to claim your home on our continents.
We've come to civilize and spread the Holy Flame.
This wild, ancient, fertile place,
All for us to tame."
[/size]
-------------------------------------------------
Original

"You must go! You don't belong here anymore!
You will flee to the lands of the West.
You must become the un-inhabitants,
For our destiny to manifest.
This world was granted to us by powers up high,
By steel and by plague, you shall abide!"

Your beasts and machines bring terror to us;
Your iron fist concealed by velvet glove.
Our lands now bear the names of your oft-gloried ones:
Conquerors who've slain our daughters and sons.
Please leave, go away! Here's no glory for us.
Stay your hand, brothers, this can still be undone.

"Fools! Savages! You haven't the sense
to claim your home on our continents.
We've come to civilize and feed the holy flame,
This wild, ancient, fertile place,
All for us to tame."

[stajas]

That does clear things up a bit. However you say you don't want this to be all in favor of the natives, but that
doesn't really come across. So maybe after the priest starts ranting you could write another part where the elder says or does
something that discredits him too?

Anyways, version 2 I like way better

[tomasmk]

Priest:
"You must come with us, you don't belong here anymore.
Or you will flee to the lands of the West.
You must become the un-inhabitants,
For our destiny to manifest.
This world was given to us by powers up high,
By steel and by plague, you shall abide!"

Elder:
Your beasts and machines bring terror to us;
Your iron fist concealed by velvet glove.
The land now bears the name of your oft-gloried one:
Conqueror, who has slain our daughters and sons.
Please leave, go away! Here's no glory for us.
Stay your hand, brothers, this can still be undone.

Priest:
"Fools! Savages! You haven't the sense
to claim your home on our continents.
We've come to civilize and spread the Holy Flame.
This wild, ancient, fertile place,
All for us to tame."
--------------------------------------------------
Original

"You must go! You don't belong here anymore!
You will flee to the lands of the West.
You must become the un-inhabitants,
For our destiny to manifest.
This world was granted to us by powers up high,
By steel and by plague, you shall abide!"

Your beasts and machines bring terror to us;
Your iron fist concealed by velvet glove.
Our lands now bear the names of your oft-gloried ones:
Conquerors who've slain our daughters and sons.
Please leave, go away! Here's no glory for us.
Stay your hand, brothers, this can still be undone.

"Fools! Savages! You haven't the sense
to claim your home on our continents.
We've come to civilize and feed the holy flame,
This wild, ancient, fertile place,
All for us to tame."

I liked the set-up and the clash of cultures. I think it could have been more realistic if the characters did not attempt to fully comply with the commonplace idea of the evil conqueror and the wise innocent Indian; it kind of threw me into a "child movie" mood

[metalfan91]

That does clear things up a bit. However you say you don't want this to be all in favor of the natives, but that
doesn't really come across. So maybe after the priest starts ranting you could write another part where the elder says or does
something that discredits him too?

Anyways, version 2 I like way better

I don't want this to be in "favor" of anyone, but when you look at journals, or some primary sources that give us a look into what people thought during these days of colonization, natives were genuinely seen as irrational, unhygienic, and barbaric. I still want that to come through. This view of natives, of course, was not true for every single immigrant, but it was an effective political tool and means for fostering support for assimilation and later removal.

I thought about this before posting, but I don't think the elder necessarily needs to be discredited. If the Elder and his people were to invade the Priest's town it would be a different story. However, I still could find a way to work it in. The line "Stay your hands brothers..." refers to the Elder telling his own men, not the Priests' men, to lay down arms. I'm still trying to make that more apparent.

Thanks for reading and giving me editing ammo

---

I think I pretty much got all of it (before I read the comments), but then again I've read history. I think the problem of this is it outlines that history (especially in what is now the United States), but does not really inspire anything, it just kind of falls flat, nor does it seem to know what it intends to accomplish. My response at the end was, "OK, so what".


Dale

I know what you mean by this "outlining history." It's the difference between the actual thing and its representation, right? I could have presented more "real" dialogue instead of the "propaganda" that another comment suggested. Maybe I could flesh it out in that direction, but I'm afraid I still need practice.

However, I think that this way it is easier to observe the spirit of invasion and colonization. Here I tried to take what all the Priests would say to all the Elders of the world, and in the process I move toward the "essence" of what they would say. Is that what is meant by "outline."

Thanks for reading me.