Accentual Verse

[ellajam]

We had a discussion you were involved in about this while back ella--the one where the double dactyl first came up. member?

nevermind. we were talking about quantitative verse. pologies.

(really, outdated or not effective in modern english is, well outdated and ineffective in modern english, irregardless)

Now I'm really confused, that's something else, no.

Editors of The Encyclopædia Britannica: quantitative verse, in prosody, a metrical system based on the duration of the syllables that make up the feet, without regard for accents or stresses. Quantitative verse is made up of long and short syllables, the duration of which is determined by the amount of time needed for pronunciation. This system has only rarely been used successfully in English poetry because of the strongly accentual nature of the English language. It was used mainly by classical Greek and Roman poets.

[Truerenigma]

We had a discussion you were involved in about this while back ella--the one where the double dactyl first came up. member?

nevermind. we were talking about quantitative verse. pologies.

(really, outdated or not effective in modern english is, well outdated and ineffective in modern english, irregardless)

Now I'm really confused, that's something else, no.

Editors of The Encyclopædia Britannica: quantitative verse, in prosody, a metrical system based on the duration of the syllables that make up the feet, without regard for accents or stresses. Quantitative verse is made up of long and short syllables, the duration of which is determined by the amount of time needed for pronunciation. This system has only rarely been used successfully in English poetry because of the strongly accentual nature of the English language. It was used mainly by classical Greek and Roman poets.

Yes, it is something else. Latin and Greek, not Saxon. Anyway accentual verse's most popular usage in its heyday was four accents, often alliterated, with a strong pause or caesura dividing them into sets of two. Try Beowulf. Of course you'll have to learn an obsolete language to actually understand it, though I'm told it's worth it.

[ellajam]

We had a discussion you were involved in about this while back ella--the one where the double dactyl first came up. member?

nevermind. we were talking about quantitative verse. pologies.

(really, outdated or not effective in modern english is, well outdated and ineffective in modern english, irregardless)

Now I'm really confused, that's something else, no.

Editors of The Encyclopædia Britannica: quantitative verse, in prosody, a metrical system based on the duration of the syllables that make up the feet, without regard for accents or stresses. Quantitative verse is made up of long and short syllables, the duration of which is determined by the amount of time needed for pronunciation. This system has only rarely been used successfully in English poetry because of the strongly accentual nature of the English language. It was used mainly by classical Greek and Roman poets.

Yes, it is something else. Latin and Greek, not Saxon. Anyway accentual verse's most popular usage in its heyday was four accents, often alliterated, with a strong pause or caesura dividing them into sets of two. Try Beowulf. Of course you'll have to learn an obsolete language to actually understand it, though I'm told it's worth it.

No thanks, I'm still working on English.

[Erthona]

Yes and the people who denigrated accentual verse are/were the same type who said Mark Twain was not a very good writer because he was a humorist!

"Accentual verse has a fixed number of stresses per line regardless of the number of syllables that are present. It is common in languages that are stress-timed, such as English (read, more natural), as opposed to syllabic verse which is common in syllable-timed languages, such as French."

The truth is that accentual verse is a perfectly valid form, and if the Norman's hadn't invaded in1066, making Old French the de facto high language and making everyone think they needed to mimic the court language (metered verse) so they would not appear like rubes, then accentual verse would still be the dominate form. This is also why trying to write iambic pentameter so often ends up sounding like Yoda speech.

Dale

[Truerenigma]

I agree, i.p. sounds unnatural when crafted by an unskilled ear, especially since accentual verse is so awesome.

[milo]

Yes and the people who denigrated accentual verse are/were the same type who said Mark Twain was not a very good writer because he was a humorist!

"Accentual verse has a fixed number of stresses per line regardless of the number of syllables that are present. It is common in languages that are stress-timed, such as English (read, more natural), as opposed to syllabic verse which is common in syllable-timed languages, such as French."

The truth is that accentual verse is a perfectly valid form, and if the Norman's hadn't invaded in1066, making Old French the de facto high language and making everyone think they needed to mimic the court language (metered verse) so they would not appear like rubes, then accentual verse would still be the dominate form. This is also why trying to write iambic pentameter so often ends up sounding like Yoda speech.

Dale

I know you're old but I think it might be time to move out of the eleventh century.

[Leanne]

I agree, i.p. sounds unnatural when crafted by an unskilled ear, especially since accentual verse is so awesome.

I only write with my ears on Saturdays, and then only if I'm legless.

[milo]

I agree, i.p. sounds unnatural when crafted by an unskilled ear, especially since accentual verse is so awesome.

I only write with my ears on Saturdays, and then only if I'm legless.

I write IP with my feet . . .

Ugh, nm, can we pretend I didn't just write that?

[ellajam]

But if you were writing IP and threw in just one or two more trochees or anapests, wouldn't it be accentual?

If anyone is tempted to answer, please have a drink on me first.

[milo]

But if you were writing IP and threw in just one or two more trochees or anapests, wouldn't it be accentual?

If anyone is tempted to answer, please have a drink on me first.

Accentual verse is strictly driven by beats per line. You could make the declaration of independence accentual just by changing the line breaks. It is the equivalent of those diamond shape poems we were writing the other day.

PS. Thanks for the.drink, the bartender would like a word with you

[ellajam]

But if you were writing IP and threw in just one or two more trochees or anapests, wouldn't it be accentual?

If anyone is tempted to answer, please have a drink on me first.

Accentual verse is strictly driven by beats per line. You could make the declaration of independence accentual just by changing the line breaks. It is the equivalent of those diamond shape poems we were writing the other day.

PS. Thanks for the.drink, the bartender would like a word with you

No prob, he's an old friend.

But no poem should be driven by it's form, ideally the form would be silently supporting it. So why couldn't three beat lines just quietly give a little consistency?

[milo]

But if you were writing IP and threw in just one or two more trochees or anapests, wouldn't it be accentual?

If anyone is tempted to answer, please have a drink on me first.

Accentual verse is strictly driven by beats per line. You could make the declaration of independence accentual just by changing the line breaks. It is the equivalent of those diamond shape poems we were writing the other day.

PS. Thanks for the.drink, the bartender would like a word with you

No prob, he's an old friend.

But no poem should be driven by it's form, ideally the form would be silently supporting it. So why couldn't three beat lines just quietly give a little consistency?

Is the question why can't beats be quiet?

[ellajam]

Accentual verse is strictly driven by beats per line. You could make the declaration of independence accentual just by changing the line breaks. It is the equivalent of those diamond shape poems we were writing the other day.

PS. Thanks for the.drink, the bartender would like a word with you

No prob, he's an old friend.

But no poem should be driven by it's form, ideally the form would be silently supporting it. So why couldn't three beat lines just quietly give a little consistency?

Is the question why can't beats be quiet?

You know those fan things a drummer uses, a swoosh beat.

[milo]

No prob, he's an old friend.

But no poem should be driven by it's form, ideally the form would be silently supporting it. So why couldn't three beat lines just quietly give a little consistency?

Is the question why can't beats be quiet?

You know those fan things a drummer uses, a swoosh beat.

you shouldn't just dismiss accentual verse as pointless and arbitrary and the cause of uncommonly bad line breaks just because it hasn't been successful for 1000 years and even then only with the aid of other devices, ella! Why don't we experiment. Let's convert some stuff to accentual verse and see if you would notice the difference when you read it aloud:

When in the Course of human events,
it becomes necessary for one people
to dissolve the political bands which have
connected them with another, and to
assume among the powers of the earth,
the separate and equal station to which
the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God
entitle them, a decent respect
to the opinions of mankind
requires that they should declare the causes
which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be
self-evident, that all men
are created equal, that they are endowed
by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights, that among these are Life,
Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
--That to secure these rights, Governments
are instituted among Men, deriving
their just powers from the consent of the governed,
--That whenever any Form of Government
becomes destructive of these ends,
it is the Right of the People to alter
or to abolish it, and to institute new
Government, laying its foundation on such
principles and organizing its powers in such
form, as to them shall seem most likely
to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence,
indeed, will dictate that Governments long
established should not be changed for light
and transient causes; and accordingly all
experience hath shewn, that mankind are more
disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable,
than to right themselves by abolishing the forms
to which they are accustomed. But when a long
train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing
invariably the same Object evinces
a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism,
it is their right, it is their duty,
to throw off such Government, and
to provide new Guards for their future security.
--Such has been the patient sufferance
of these Colonies; and such is now
the necessity which constrains them to alter
their former Systems of Government. The history
of the present King of Great Britain
is a history of repeated injuries
and usurpations, all having in direct
object the establishment of an absolute
Tyranny over these States.
To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid
world.

*to make it tricky, I included a couple lines that would not read correctly accentually. If accentual verse has merit, these line should sound off so they should stick out like sore thumbs.

[Erthona]

You're missing the point milo, accentual verse has to be woven into the content in the beginning, not added on later as an appendix.
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"Accentual verse is strictly driven by beats per line." So by the way is metered poetry, it just requires a partner or partners of unstressed syllables.

When we are talking cadence or rhythm we are talking accentual verse, just not tied to a line count, the stressed syllables and non-stressed syllables is what gives the rise and fall of the voice.. Sure accentual verse is more difficult (when not confined by a line count), but it is also more subservient to driving the content, than vice versa. Free iambic verse came about as trying to loosen the straight jacket that had been put on content since 1066. The problem arises when people try and use them without having trained their ear on the more standard verse forms, and you get as we so often see, bland, run-on sentences.

Dale

[milo]

"Accentual verse is strictly driven by beats per line." So by the way is metered poetry, it just requires a partner or partners of unstressed syllables.

When we are talking cadence or rhythm we are talking accentual verse, just not tied to a line count, the stressed syllables and non-stressed syllables is what gives the rise and fall of the voice.. Sure accentual verse is more difficult (when not confined by a line count), but it is also more subservient to driving the content, than vice versa. Free iambic verse came about as trying to loosen the straight jacket that had been put on content since 1066. The problem arises when people try and use them without having trained their ear on the more standard verse forms, and you get as we so often see, bland, run-on sentences.

Dale

metric verse isn't driven by beats per line but by /feet/. you can easily have metric verse with lines of varying feet.

In addition, accentual verse by its nature is easier than metric verse as /fixed/ metric verse is accentual by definition. (actually accentual/syllabic)

Anything written can be converted to "accentual verse" merely by changing the line breaks - how hard could that possibly be?

*everything ever written in the English language is actually accentual verse of varying lengths (lengths being beats per line)

[ellajam]

I am not saying that consistent stresses per line makes a poem. I've managed to write perfect IP that we really shouldn't call a poem.
We could break it up into 5 and 7 syllable lines and see if the ones that are 8 or 9 stick out. They wouldn't.
What I'm curious about is if a non-stressed poem that naturally (or accidentally) has mostly 3 stress lines would improve the reader's experience if the remaining lines were manipulated to match. Please excuse my lack of correct terms for this stuff, I'm just learning, but the above example isn't a poem so applying any poetic device and then judging the device doesn't make sense to me.

[milo]

I am not saying that consistent stresses per line makes a poem. I've managed to write perfect IP that we really shouldn't call a poem.
We could break it up into 5 and 7 syllable lines and see if the ones that are 8 or 9 stick out. They wouldn't.
What I'm curious about is if a non-stressed poem that naturally (or accidentally) has mostly 3 stress lines would improve the reader's experience if the remaining lines were manipulated to match. Please excuse my lack of correct terms for this stuff, I'm just learning, but the above example isn't a poem so applying any poetic device and then judging the device doesn't make sense to me.

I would disagree that it is not a poem. Also, if you write consistent metric poetry and include 1 or 2 lines where the foot count is off - it does stick out, quite obviously i might add.

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You're missing the point milo, accentual verse has to be woven into the content in the beginning, not added on later as an appendix.
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I disagree entirely. If accentual verse has a noticeable effect - either positive or negative - you would notice that effect when applying it. If there is no noticeable effect when applying it - it has no noticeable effect. Of course you could just post an example of good accentual verse and we could test the theory the other way.

[ellajam]

I am not saying that consistent stresses per line makes a poem. I've managed to write perfect IP that we really shouldn't call a poem.
We could break it up into 5 and 7 syllable lines and see if the ones that are 8 or 9 stick out. They wouldn't.
What I'm curious about is if a non-stressed poem that naturally (or accidentally) has mostly 3 stress lines would improve the reader's experience if the remaining lines were manipulated to match. Please excuse my lack of correct terms for this stuff, I'm just learning, but the above example isn't a poem so applying any poetic device and then judging the device doesn't make sense to me.

I would disagree that it is not a poem. Also, if you write consistent metric poetry and include 1 or 2 lines where the foot count is off - it does stick out, quite obviously i might add.

No problem on calling it a poem, but we all know not every poetic device improves every poem, they can wreck one just as easily.
I know that in metric poetry a foot off sticks out, I've tripped over my own plenty trying to learn it. But I'm not talking about metered poetry. I don't know how to label some of the poems I write, they sort of come from a perverted tanka force, but that really only matters to me. They sink or rise on their totality.
So are you saying that you don't think it will have any effect on the poem if most lines have 3 stresses and some have 2 or 4?

[milo]

I am not saying that consistent stresses per line makes a poem. I've managed to write perfect IP that we really shouldn't call a poem.
We could break it up into 5 and 7 syllable lines and see if the ones that are 8 or 9 stick out. They wouldn't.
What I'm curious about is if a non-stressed poem that naturally (or accidentally) has mostly 3 stress lines would improve the reader's experience if the remaining lines were manipulated to match. Please excuse my lack of correct terms for this stuff, I'm just learning, but the above example isn't a poem so applying any poetic device and then judging the device doesn't make sense to me.

I would disagree that it is not a poem. Also, if you write consistent metric poetry and include 1 or 2 lines where the foot count is off - it does stick out, quite obviously i might add.

No problem on calling it a poem, but we all know not every poetic device improves every poem, they can wreck one just as easily.
I know that in metric poetry a foot off sticks out, I've tripped over my own plenty trying to learn it. But I'm not talking about metered poetry. I don't know how to label some of the poems I write, they sort of come from a perverted tanka force, but that really only matters to me. They sink or rise on their totality.
So are you saying that you don't think it will have any effect on the poem if most lines have 3 stresses and some have 2 or 4?

That is pretty much what I am saying. If you are writing free verse than the break is one of your most important elements and to subrogate it to a beat count is to produce inferior poetry. Others, it would seem, disagree. i wish I still had the writing from my accentual verse days but, unfortunately, it fell to the purge.