Poetry and the Masses

[clemonz]

I don't want to sound churlish, but Imagism to me is possibly the least interesting movement -- just after Modernism.

what makes you say that?

[Leanne]

Poetry is subjective. I can appreciate technique and skill without liking something. I just don't like it. On the other hand, I love symbolism, surrealism, metaphysics, romanticism, neoclassicism... so I reckon I'm entitled to dislike something.

[billy]

i definitely got what you mean, but e.g. imagism was exciting, wasn't it - a new way of seeing / writing?
[/quote]

i have no idea what imagism is, i do like some of the romantics but i'm a simple mind that just sees poetry as poetry. i'm too old to over think about all it's movements.

[Leanne]

When you get as old as billy, any kind of movement is exciting...

[billy]

and painful

[milo]

I see imagism as haiku without the poetry. And you know how I love haiku.

[Brownlie]

.

I saw this discussion touched on in a thread, and thought it might make a good discussion here.

In my own words:

The idea was that poetry is too focused on grammar, structure, and highbrow words to appeal to the 6-7 billion people on this world. What we should do is move to something that appeals to the masses, and is more of a populous approach. This way would say: people like cliches for a reason, people aren't fond of grammar, or using a thesaurus.

If poetry is to be widespread it must come down from its self imposed perch.

I'm not trying to give a straw man argument just represent how I took the message.

My view, poetry has never been popular. If the answer is to lower the bar to gain popularity, I'd rather all poetry burn. I'd rather we all turned on reality TV, and forgot about it. I think this approach makes poetry nothing worth saving.

Art should move you. This insipid dumbing down of poetry wouldn't accomplish that purpose. It would make it no different than Muzak.

Maybe I'm preaching to the choir (cliche for the masses) or maybe I'm not.

Thoughts?

According to Merriam Webster's dictionary and thesaurus poetry has 2 sort of 3 definitions
1. Metrical writing
2.POEMS
3 concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm

[clemonz]

Poetry is subjective. I can appreciate technique and skill without liking something. I just don't like it. On the other hand, I love symbolism, surrealism, metaphysics, romanticism, neoclassicism... so I reckon I'm entitled to dislike something.

i guess... i [think i] read that imagism was the first english avant garde. that's not just calling it fashionable, it means that it was fully - art.

[rowens]

The avant garde has blessed us with those wonderful commercials by insurance companies and Dish and DirectTV that everybody loves and aren't annoyed by.

[clemonz]

haha, i have no idea what you mean.

in my head, there is poetry before the wasteland, and after it.

[rowens]

I mean surreal, dadaist and absurdist humor in commercials. Skittles and Sonic and many other companies use that stuff.

Maybe not poetry related; but to me it is.

[clemonz]

i guess yeah, but we have the avant garde to thank for that in the same way we have CERN to thank for pop up ads.

[rowens]

The avant garde that people talk about was based on Modern ideas. Movements in poetry and art were Modern ideas. Eventually everything gets absorbed into the mainstream and is utilized by the Establishment. People said Postmodern, then they said Post Postmodern. People say all sorts of things. Most of it is nonsense, the Establishment is nonsense, but it's Established nonsense. It's good or it's annoying. Most things are annoying for me, but I have drugs and alcohol so it's all right sometimes. When it's not all right, I write. I end up studying poetry incidentally.

[clemonz]

It's good or it's annoying.

i see what you mean, but really - i think criticism without Modern ideas / History, is impoverished

[rowens]

You mean criticism is impoverished without a knowledge of history? Is that what you're saying?

[Leanne]

Criticism need not subscribe to the tenets of modernity. Those are long dead. Similarly, we have moved on from structuralism, post-structuralism, formalism, aestheticism, etc. Any "ism" becomes its own tomb eventually. Being "avant garde" is just another label -- the idea that there was no change to poetry before Pound and his cronies is erroneous. There have been revolutionary ideas throughout history or poetry would have ceased its relevance long ago -- it's just that prior to Imagism, none of them really involved the USA to any great extent and so naturally, it becomes privileged in American institutions. There were many English and American poets involved in Dada as well -- a movement whose very essence was change -- but of course labelling Dada kills it. I feel much the same about any poetry.

[rowens]

The idea of artist as revolutionist in Modern movements: revolutionizing art, revolutionizing politics, revolutionizing consciousness; all that has been made so common through popular culture that it's just that: a common, mediocre idea with no practice behind it.

But I think artist as revolutionist can still be taken seriously.

[Leanne]

True revolutionaries don't have to bang on about how revolutionary they're being -- they just get on with doing what has to be done.

---

I am instantly suspicious and quite derisive of anyone these days who labels themselves "avant garde"

[rowens]

The best "avant garde" is in advertising nowadays.

[clemonz]

good points, but the "best" avant garde is not the "best avant garde".

---

anyway my actual troll reply is - you know a lot about the avant garde then?