Primal

[jdvanwijk]

Sunday morning after breakfast,
it came to me like Jesus
from the cave: I must scream,
a cry to rival my dear ancestors
clubbing their dinner to death.

I took a deep breath;
that's when my brain kicked in.
Neighbours are a dreadful thing
when you're suffering from revelation,
especially when they sleep late.

Outside - the houses, the streets,
the cars, the parks,
the hedges, the lights:
on every horizon a guard
chaining us to modern times.

[jdeirmend]

Sunday morning after breakfast,
it came to me like Jesus
from the cave: I must scream,
a cry to rival my dear ancestors
clubbing their dinner to death.

I took a deep breath;
that's when my brain kicked in.
Neighbours are a dreadful thing
when you're suffering from revelation,
especially when they sleep late.

Outside - the houses, the streets,
the cars, the parks,
the hedges, the lights:
on every horizon a guard
chaining us to modern times.

I enjoyed this. Composition wise, it reads beautifully. The enjambment in the first stanza was artfully executed. My only objection is the last line. "modern times" simply doesn't work for me. "modern life" would be better, as would "civilization", if we're going to stick with abstractions. Beyond that, you could demonstrate what you're grasping at better with an image, and perhaps even use the same as a point of departure to further develop the poem. There is much more to say, I think, about the sort of confinement you're alluding to with this.

[jdvanwijk]

Thanks for the excellent advice. Looking forward to explore your ideas.

[milo]

Sunday morning after breakfast,
it came to me like Jesus
from the cave: I must scream,
a cry to rival my dear ancestors
clubbing their dinner to death.

I like the simile of coming to someone like Jesus from the cave though it is a little muddled here. A need to scream came to you like Jesus from the cave? The first problem, is that it assumes that Jesus came to the narrator, but we know that is not true. The second is, it is tough to know what you are trying to say about the need to scream - is it pious? Is it brotherly? Is it preordained? The second comparison has the same problem with muddled meaning - You compare a scream as somehow greater than someone clubbing their dinner to death. It is tough to know what quality this adds to the scream. I don't think "dear" here adds anything. What I do like is the economy of language. You have managed to say several things without saying them, although I question whether it is all intended. Your N is religious but a modern "scientific amalgam" religious."

I took a deep breath;
that's when my brain kicked in.
Neighbours are a dreadful thing
when you're suffering from revelation,
especially when they sleep late.

Here we have a several problems. You have the cliche, of course and then you have a grammatical singular = plural disagreement. "suffering from revelation" is interesting. You have established an intersting intimacy with your neighbors here as well.

Outside - the houses, the streets,
the cars, the parks,
the hedges, the lights:
on every horizon a guard
chaining us to modern times.

Your list of items 'outside' may not be that effective, especially as I assume your N is inside (otherwise you wouldn't mention outside) so why is he suddenly concerned with the modern affirmations outside? Why is this beeter than "a fridge, a toaster, a microwave, a dishwasher"?

I like the idea of modernity guarding the horizons, but really? /every/ horizon? How many horizons are in N's 6 dimensional world anyway?

thanks for posting.

[jdvanwijk]

Hello Milo,

Thank you for your thorough feedback! A lot of things for me to consider. I'll try to explain some of things I intended, I'm curious if you would have any ideas how to get these points across better?

Sunday morning after breakfast,
it came to me like Jesus
from the cave: I must scream,
a cry to rival my dear ancestors
clubbing their dinner to death.

I like the simile of coming to someone like Jesus from the cave though it is a little muddled here. A need to scream came to you like Jesus from the cave?

The first problem, is that it assumes that Jesus came to the narrator, but we know that is not true. The second is, it is tough to know what you are trying to say about the need to scream - is it pious? Is it brotherly? Is it preordained? Jesus from the cave for me stands for resurrection and revelation; the narrator's internal "caveman" has been suddenly resurrected here. I was trying to contrast the pious with the primal, or to be playfully blasphemous if you will. The need to scream doesn't have a concrete "reason" here: have you never felt the sudden urge to scream as loud as possible for no concrete reason at all? Not being allowed to do so can feel very confining; the Bane of Modern Man.

The second comparison has the same problem with muddled meaning - You compare a scream as somehow greater than someone clubbing their dinner to death. What I meant here was greater than the cry a caveman would utter when he clobbers his prey to death, which would probably already sound something like HWAAAARGHHH!!

It is tough to know what quality this adds to the scream. I don't think "dear" here adds anything. What I do like is the economy of language. You have managed to say several things without saying them, although I question whether it is all intended. Your N is religious but a modern "scientific amalgam" religious." That wasn't what I intended; if he was, why isn't he in church on this Sunday morning?

I took a deep breath;
that's when my brain kicked in.
Neighbours are a dreadful thing
when you're suffering from revelation,
especially when they sleep late.

Here we have a several problems. You have the cliche The first two lines? Agreed, could be more original., of course and then you have a grammatical singular = plural disagreement. I think this is OK though, I was pointing to the "concept" neighbours in general. My intention was to make the narrator sound a bit pedantic, contrasted with the throw-away last line. "suffering from revelation" is interesting. You have established an intersting intimacy with your neighbors here as well.

Outside - the houses, the streets,
the cars, the parks,
the hedges, the lights:
on every horizon a guard
chaining us to modern times.

Your list of items 'outside' may not be that effective, especially as I assume your N is inside (otherwise you wouldn't mention outside) so why is he suddenly concerned with the modern affirmations outside? Why is this beeter than "a fridge, a toaster, a microwave, a dishwasher"? My intention was that he was trying to think of other places where he could scream, but every place he can think of has the same restrictions; every place carries reminders of "modern times".

I like the idea of modernity guarding the horizons, but really? /every/ horizon? How many horizons are in N's 6 dimensional world anyway? Well, when you view a mere car or hedge as a "guard of modernity" like the narrator does, then yes, there's no escape. At least in this flat, cramped, beloved country I call home, The Netherlands.

thanks for posting.

[milo]

Hello Milo,

Thank you for your thorough feedback! A lot of things for me to consider. I'll try to explain some of things I intended, I'm curious if you would have any ideas to get these points across better?

Sunday morning after breakfast,
it came to me like Jesus
from the cave: I must scream,
a cry to rival my dear ancestors
clubbing their dinner to death.

I like the simile of coming to someone like Jesus from the cave though it is a little muddled here. A need to scream came to you like Jesus from the cave?

The first problem, is that it assumes that Jesus came to the narrator, but we know that is not true. The second is, it is tough to know what you are trying to say about the need to scream - is it pious? Is it brotherly? Is it preordained?

Jesus from the cave for me stands for resurrection and revelation; the narrator's internal "caveman" has been suddenly resurrected here. I was trying to contrast the pious with the primal, or to be playfully blasphemous if you will. The need to scream doesn't have a concrete "reason" here: have you never felt the sudden urge to scream as loud as possible for no concrete reason at all? Not being allowed to do so can feel very restrictive.

I actually wrote a whole series of poems on primal scream therapy which fascinated me for some time. What my comments are trying to point out is that you are responsible for even the nuances included in your writing if you allow for vagaries. I am being playful about it but the truth is, good poetry communicates on several levels and if you are accidentally including double meanings or you are not locking down your meanings, you are not in control of the language. you might need a modifier. You have chose words (Jesus, Sunday morning, revelations) which deliberately point to a spiritual wakening of sorts, but not only is this unintended, it is a red herring. The choices - either use it and develop it or find a way to eliminate it.

The second comparison has the same problem with muddled meaning - You compare a scream as somehow greater than someone clubbing their dinner to death. What I meant here was the cry a caveman would utter when he clobbers his prey to death -> the narrator's urge to scream is even greater than that.

I actually know what you mean here, but it isn't what your words say. You need to find words that say that. What you are saying literally is your scream has to be greater than the clubbing itself. I do like both the sonics and the implied violence of the phrasing.

It is tough to know what quality this adds to the scream. I don't think "dear" here adds anything. This was meant ironically. What I do like is the economy of language. You have managed to say several things without saying them, although I question whether it is all intended. Your N is religious but a modern "scientific amalgam" religious." That wasn't what I intended; if he was, why isn't he in church on this Sunday morning?

A lot of religious folk don't attend church every Sunday anymore, just the holidays, but they are still believers. A non-religious person wouldn't use so many religioius references in a short poem

I took a deep breath;
that's when my brain kicked in.
Neighbours are a dreadful thing
when you're suffering from revelation,
especially when they sleep late.

Here we have a several problems. You have the cliche The first line?

brain "kicked in" is a cliche, there is no literal kicking going on, correct?

, of course and then you have a grammatical singular = plural disagreement. I think this is OK though, I was pointing to the "concept" neighbours in general. My intention was to make the narrator sound a bit pedantic, contrasted with the throw-away last line.

If you want the concept of neighbors than you still have a grammar error, you would need "is"

"suffering from revelation" is interesting. You have established an interesting intimacy with your neighbors here as well.

Outside - the houses, the streets,
the cars, the parks,
the hedges, the lights:
on every horizon a guard
chaining us to modern times.

Your list of items 'outside' may not be that effective, especially as I assume your N is inside (otherwise you wouldn't mention outside) so why is he suddenly concerned with the modern affirmations outside? Why is this better than "a fridge, a toaster, a microwave, a dishwasher"? My intention was that he was trying to think of places where he could scream, but every place he can think of has the same restrictions.

all well and good, but while screaming to wake neighbors is undesirable, who cares if you wake a light, a car, a park, etc.? It might be interesting to tie back the scream to a need to escape from our all-essential but ever present present, but it is tough to say without seeing it first.

I like the idea of modernity guarding the horizons, but really? /every/ horizon? How many horizons are in N's 6 dimensional world anyway? Well, if you view a mere car as a "guard of modernity" like the narrator does, then yes, there's no escape. At least in this flat, cramped, beloved country I call home, The Netherlands.

As far as I know, there is only 1 horizon, certainly only one viewable at any time, even in the Netherlands.

thanks for posting.

[jdvanwijk]

Thanks, that's great advice and I will work on that. (I think some of the problems come from the fact that I'm not a native speaker, for example, in Dutch we do say "on every horizon", and we can sometimes get away with singular/plural disagreement... but that's what this forum is for of course. )

Hello Milo,

Thank you for your thorough feedback! A lot of things for me to consider. I'll try to explain some of things I intended, I'm curious if you would have any ideas to get these points across better?

I like the simile of coming to someone like Jesus from the cave though it is a little muddled here. A need to scream came to you like Jesus from the cave?

The first problem, is that it assumes that Jesus came to the narrator, but we know that is not true. The second is, it is tough to know what you are trying to say about the need to scream - is it pious? Is it brotherly? Is it preordained?

Jesus from the cave for me stands for resurrection and revelation; the narrator's internal "caveman" has been suddenly resurrected here. I was trying to contrast the pious with the primal, or to be playfully blasphemous if you will. The need to scream doesn't have a concrete "reason" here: have you never felt the sudden urge to scream as loud as possible for no concrete reason at all? Not being allowed to do so can feel very restrictive.

I actually wrote a whole series of poems on primal scream therapy which fascinated me for some time. What my comments are trying to point out is that you are responsible for even the nuances included in your writing if you allow for vagaries. I am being playful about it but the truth is, good poetry communicates on several levels and if you are accidentally including double meanings or you are not locking down your meanings, you are not in control of the language. you might need a modifier. You have chose words (Jesus, Sunday morning, revelations) which deliberately point to a spiritual wakening of sorts, but not only is this unintended, it is a red herring. The choices - either use it and develop it or find a way to eliminate it.
I actually know what you mean here, but it isn't what your words say. You need to find words that say that. What you are saying literally is your scream has to be greater than the clubbing itself. I do like both the sonics and the implied violence of the phrasing. A lot of religious folk don't attend church every Sunday anymore, just the holidays, but they are still believers. A non-religious person wouldn't use so many religioius references in a short poem

Here we have a several problems. You have the cliche The first line?

brain "kicked in" is a cliche, there is no literal kicking going on, correct?

, of course and then you have a grammatical singular = plural disagreement. I think this is OK though, I was pointing to the "concept" neighbours in general. My intention was to make the narrator sound a bit pedantic, contrasted with the throw-away last line.

If you want the concept of neighbors than you still have a grammar error, you would need "is"

"suffering from revelation" is interesting. You have established an interesting intimacy with your neighbors here as well.

Your list of items 'outside' may not be that effective, especially as I assume your N is inside (otherwise you wouldn't mention outside) so why is he suddenly concerned with the modern affirmations outside? Why is this better than "a fridge, a toaster, a microwave, a dishwasher"? My intention was that he was trying to think of places where he could scream, but every place he can think of has the same restrictions.

all well and good, but while screaming to wake neighbors is undesirable, who cares if you wake a light, a car, a park, etc.? It might be interesting to tie back the scream to a need to escape from our all-essential but ever present present, but it is tough to say without seeing it first.

I like the idea of modernity guarding the horizons, but really? /every/ horizon? How many horizons are in N's 6 dimensional world anyway? Well, if you view a mere car as a "guard of modernity" like the narrator does, then yes, there's no escape. At least in this flat, cramped, beloved country I call home, The Netherlands.

As far as I know, there is only 1 horizon, certainly only one viewable at any time, even in the Netherlands.

thanks for posting.

[milo]

Thanks, that's great advice and I will work on that. (I think some of the problems come from the fact I'm not a native speaker, in Dutch we say "on every horizon" for example... but that's what this forum is for of course. )

we say "over every horizon" or "from every horizon" in English and they are cliches referring to travel or different lands, hence the different horizons.

Hello Milo,

Thank you for your thorough feedback! A lot of things for me to consider. I'll try to explain some of things I intended, I'm curious if you would have any ideas to get these points across better?

[Truerenigma]

Sunday morning after breakfast,
it came to me like Jesus
from the cave: I must scream,

A scream to rival clubbing? "I must scream -- a cry to rival my dear ancestors, clubbing "... works fine, so I'm left to wonder if you meant something else: Is the cry not the scream? {I must scream.(there is/I heard) a cry...} hmm.

a cry to rival my dear ancestors
clubbing their dinner to death.

I like clubbing their dinner to death. It is an interesting way to show that the narrators is speaking from current times, and gives us an idea of which ancestors he's referring to: not the past couple generations, not those who migrated from the homeland 200 years ago, etc.. But why couldn't they be aliens? That would be more interesting.



I took a deep breath;
that's when my brain kicked in.

I have to say I don't really like "brain kicked in" line; you could say the same thing with a great start-up metaphor, also what exactly are you trying to say here? Did you mean that the narrator was going to scream, and took in a deep breath in preparation for the scream, but decided not to after thinking about it?

Neighbours are a dreadful thing
when you're suffering from revelation,
especially when they sleep late.

This stanza seems out-of-the-blue, random. And why are neighbors a dreadful thing? Did the narrator wake them with the scream? I thought his brain kicked in and he thought the better of it? And why does that make them dreadful? Perhaps he can't scream because he doesn't want to wake them, but this is unclear.

Outside - the houses, the streets,
the cars, the parks,
the hedges, the lights:
on every horizon a guard
chaining us to modern times.

So it's only the things outside than chain us to modern times? Also, how is horizon better than on every corner? Have we suddenly gone sailing?

I really like the ideas here. Minimal editing required, it just needs some tinkering.

[jdvanwijk]

Thanks for your feedback, very useful! About the second verse, what you guessed at was correct: just before the scream, the narrator thinks about his neighbours and for the moment he hates them for being there. It sets up a train of thought with the narrator that he feels confined by modern society in general in his "will to scream" (which could of course stand for many other things...) and that there is no escaping it. (This whole part needs some work I think...) Would you have any advice how to make this clearer in the poem?

All best!
Jan

PS Aliens??

Sunday morning after breakfast,
it came to me like Jesus
from the cave: I must scream,

I don't think the comma is needed here, there's no list of cries or screams to follow, just a description of a singular cry, not even a list of descriptors for the cry. "I must scream a cry to rival my ancestors' "... works fine, so I'm left to wonder if you meant something else: Is the cry not the scream? {I must scream.(there is/I heard) a cry...} hmm.

a cry to rival my dear ancestors
clubbing their dinner to death.

I like clubbing their dinner to death. It is an interesting way to show that the narrators is speaking from current times, and gives us an idea of which ancestors he's referring to: not the past couple generations, not those who migrated from the homeland 200 years ago, etc.. But why couldn't they be aliens? That would be interesting.



I took a deep breath;
that's when my brain kicked in.

I have to say I don't really like "brain kicked in" line; you could say the same thing with a great start-up metaphor, also what exactly are you trying to say here? Did you mean that the narrator was going to scream, and took in a deep breath in preparation for the scream, but decided not to after thinking about it?

Neighbours are a dreadful thing
when you're suffering from revelation,
especially when they sleep late.

This stanza seems out-of-the-blue, random. And why are neighbors a dreadful thing? Did the narrator wake them with the scream? I thought his brain kicked in and he thought the better of it? And why does that make them dreadful? Perhaps he can't scream because he doesn't want to wake them, but this is unclear.

Outside - the houses, the streets,
the cars, the parks,
the hedges, the lights:
on every horizon a guard
chaining us to modern times.

So it's only the things outside than chain us to modern times? Also, how is horizon better than on every corner? Have we suddenly gone sailing?

I really like the ideas here. Minimal editing required, it just needs some tinkering.

[Truerenigma]

Thanks for your feedback, very useful! About the second verse, what you guessed at was correct: just before the scream, the narrator thinks about his neighbours and for the moment he hates them for being there. It sets up a train of thought with the narrator that modern society in general confines his "wish to scream" (which could of course stand for many other things...) and that there is no escaping it. Would you have any advice how to make this clearer in the poem?

All best!
Jan

Sunday morning after breakfast,
it came to me like Jesus
from the cave: I must scream,

I don't think the comma is needed here, there's no list of cries or screams to follow, just a description of a singular cry, not even a list of descriptors for the cry. "I must scream a cry to rival my ancestors' "... works fine, so I'm left to wonder if you meant something else: Is the cry not the scream? {I must scream.(there is/I heard) a cry...} hmm.

a cry to rival my dear ancestors
clubbing their dinner to death.

I like clubbing their dinner to death. It is an interesting way to show that the narrators is speaking from current times, and gives us an idea of which ancestors he's referring to: not the past couple generations, not those who migrated from the homeland 200 years ago, etc.. But why couldn't they be aliens? That would be interesting.



I took a deep breath;
that's when my brain kicked in.

I have to say I don't really like "brain kicked in" line; you could say the same thing with a great start-up metaphor, also what exactly are you trying to say here? Did you mean that the narrator was going to scream, and took in a deep breath in preparation for the scream, but decided not to after thinking about it?

Neighbours are a dreadful thing
when you're suffering from revelation,
especially when they sleep late.

This stanza seems out-of-the-blue, random. And why are neighbors a dreadful thing? Did the narrator wake them with the scream? I thought his brain kicked in and he thought the better of it? And why does that make them dreadful? Perhaps he can't scream because he doesn't want to wake them, but this is unclear.

Outside - the houses, the streets,
the cars, the parks,
the hedges, the lights:
on every horizon a guard
chaining us to modern times.

So it's only the things outside than chain us to modern times? Also, how is horizon better than on every corner? Have we suddenly gone sailing?

I really like the ideas here. Minimal editing required, it just needs some tinkering.

I've edited my notes on S1 to be more accurate, and i think you'll find the updated notes more helpfull. I was in outer space originally. sorry about that. As far as ideas, this is not a collaboration, but a workshop; I'm sure you'll think of something.

[jdvanwijk]

Thanks. Of course I'll need to do the work.

Still... aliens??

Thanks for your feedback, very useful! About the second verse, what you guessed at was correct: just before the scream, the narrator thinks about his neighbours and for the moment he hates them for being there. It sets up a train of thought with the narrator that modern society in general confines his "wish to scream" (which could of course stand for many other things...) and that there is no escaping it. Would you have any advice how to make this clearer in the poem?

All best!
Jan

I really like the ideas here. Minimal editing required, it[/b] just needs some tinkering.

I've edited my notes on S1 to be more accurate, and i think you'll find the updated notes more helpfull. I was in outer space originally. sorry about that. As far as ideas, this is not a collaboration, but a workshop; I'm sure you'll think of something.

[Truerenigma]

Still... aliens??

Sure, why not? an alternative/psuedo-scientific, religulious viewpoint could be presented. Gods or aliens? Aliens always spice up a go(o)d story. Anyway, that's not to be taken to heart. I was just having fun.

[Keaner222]

Sunday morning after breakfast,
it came to me like Jesus
from the cave: I must scream,
a cry to rival my dear ancestors
clubbing their dinner to death.

I took a deep breath;
that's when my brain kicked in.
Neighbours are a dreadful thing
when you're suffering from revelation,
especially when they sleep late.

Outside - the houses, the streets,
the cars, the parks,
the hedges, the lights:
on every horizon a guard
chaining us to modern times.

I really liked the imagery of the last stanza. Describes suburbia perfectly. I agree that all this mediocre ness is chaining us down