Translations of Goethe; Ongoing Project

[jringo_]

Hi there. I have undertaken the project of translating Goethe from German to English and I'd like some feedback on what I have so far. I will occasionally post specific poems here on the forum, but I have many already done and online (I translate and post one a day). You can read them at www.goingvongoethe.blogspot.com . I am open to workshops on any of them, just copy and paste the poem here in this thread and we can get to talking =).

Anyway, this is the poem I've been having the most trouble with lately.

The King of Thule

There was a king of Thule
who loved, to the very end,
his maiden's chalice jeweled
death’s finest ruby red.

At each feast he drank
and spoke of no one else;
From heaven she watched him drink,
so oft he drank to heaven’s health.

And when death came for him,
he took the cup to hide;
He gave away his kingdom,
but none would take her ruby eyes.

He held a royal banquet,
gathered all his knights
here at Goden’s hamlet,
high on the Cliffs of Kyte.

And so stood the old dreamer
as he drank the final embers of life,
then threw his lover’s chalice
to the foaming waters of the night.

He watched it drop and drink,
disappearing to the sea.
He saw once more her image blink,
and never drank again.

[jdeirmend]

Hi Jringo,

I for one would appreciate seeing the original German you're translating from in tandem with the English. (My German is modest, but the exercise of evaluating your translation, with the help of Google and LEO, is something that I would relish).

If you're interested in that, post the German, and I'll get to work shortly. Thanks!

Hi there. I have undertaken the project of translating Goethe from German to English and I'd like some feedback on what I have so far. I will occasionally post specific poems here on the forum, but I have many already done and online (I translate and post one a day). You can read them at www.goingvongoethe.blogspot.com . I am open to workshops on any of them, just copy and paste the poem here in this thread and we can get to talking =).

Anyway, this is the poem I've been having the most trouble with lately.

The King of Thule

There was a king of Thule
who loved, to the very end,
his maiden's chalice jeweled
death’s finest ruby red.

At each feast he drank
and spoke of no one else;
From heaven she watched him drink,
so oft he drank to heaven’s health.

And when death came for him,
he took the cup to hide;
He gave away his kingdom,
but none would take her ruby eyes.

He held a royal banquet,
gathered all his knights
here at Goden’s hamlet,
high on the Cliffs of Kyte.

And so stood the old dreamer
as he drank the final embers of life,
then threw his lover’s chalice
to the foaming waters of the night.

He watched it drop and drink,
disappearing to the sea.
He saw once more her image blink,
and never drank again.

[jringo_]

Hi Jringo,

I for one would appreciate seeing the original German you're translating from in tandem with the English. (My German is modest, but the exercise of evaluating your translation, with the help of Google and LEO, is something that I would relish).

Sure thing. Know that my translations are incredibly loose. If there is a phrase or a word in the German that does not carry any connotation in English, and especially when it is empty in context, I am not afraid to rephrase it. In that respect, some stanzas are completely different words from the direct translations, however deliver the same plot, emotional charge, and attempt to reproduce in English what I can best estimate as the effect the German might have on a German reader.

GERMAN:

Es war ein König in Thule,
Gar treu bis an das Grab,
Dem sterbend seine Buhle
einen goldnen Becher gab.

Es ging ihm nichts darüber,
Er leert' ihn jeden Schmaus;
Die Augen gingen ihm über,
So oft er trank daraus.

Und als er kam zu sterben,
Zählt' er seine Städt' im Reich,
Gönnt' alles seinen Erben,
Den Becher nicht zugleich.

Er saß beim Königsmahle,
Die Ritter um ihn her,
Auf hohem Vätersaale,
Dort auf dem Schloß am Meer.

Dort stand der alte Zecher,
Trank letzte Lebensglut,
Und warf den heiligen Becher
Hinunter in die Flut.

Er sah ihn stürzen, trinken
Und sinken tief ins Meer,
die Augen täten ihm sinken,
Trank nie einen Tropfen mehr.


And just for fun, here's a beautiful rendition of the poem in song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BRwVQIwpu4

[milo]

First, you have taken quite a few liberties with the story. Second, your translation seems to have many beginner poetry mistakes stamped onto a pretty good writer.

Hi there. I have undertaken the project of translating Goethe from German to English and I'd like some feedback on what I have so far. I will occasionally post specific poems here on the forum, but I have many already done and online (I translate and post one a day). You can read them at www.goingvongoethe.blogspot.com . I am open to workshops on any of them, just copy and paste the poem here in this thread and we can get to talking =).

Anyway, this is the poem I've been having the most trouble with lately.

The King of Thule

There was a king of Thule
who loved, to the very end,
his maiden's chalice jeweled
death’s finest ruby red.

So, if you remove the lines breaks it is clear you are saying that there was a king of thule who loved his maiden's chalice jeweled. Really, why does he love the chalice jeweled as opposed to plain? Or, I guess he only loved it when the chalice was jeweled red? To the very end is cliche, why force Goethe to write cliches?

At each feast he drank
and spoke of no one else;
From heaven she watched him drink,
so oft he drank to heaven’s health.

Heaven's health? - ridiculous. The original has nothing about her watching him drink from heaven. At each feast he spoke of no one else - - except himself? There is no antecedent here.

And when death came for him,
he took the cup to hide;
He gave away his kingdom,
but none would take her ruby eyes.

he didn't take the cup to hide, he already had it, he just hid teh cup. Ruby eyes doesn't make any sense so it is a good thing it appears nowhere in the original. I don't recall him "giving his kingdom away" either, I thought he gathered close friends and heirs and divided his wealth.

He held a royal banquet,
gathered all his knights
here at Goden’s hamlet,
high on the Cliffs of Kyte.

even with most of your rhymes being slant rhymes the botched meter is screaming.

And so stood the old dreamer
as he drank the final embers of life,
then threw his lover’s chalice
to the foaming waters of the night.

final embers of life? foaming waters of night? some of this is pretty forced and awkward you know.

He watched it drop and drink,
disappearing to the sea.
He saw once more her image blink,
and never drank again.

He watched it drop and drink? What does that mean, it looks like English but doesn't make sense in English.

Overall, i wouldn't call this a translation, it is more of a poem based on another poem. One of the problems is that this reads quite amateurish and it is based on the work of a master writer. I think this needs some serious re-writing with some thoughts to the original and better facility with English.

Thanks for posting.

[jringo_]

Whoa, Milo, why you gotta hate so hard?

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply, so here are my responses:

--

I agree, I do not like the first stanza.

--

Have you read the German? Or only the current English translations of it.

"Die Augen gingen ihm über,
So oft er trank daraus."

or

"The (or her) eyes went over him,
so often he drank thereof."

This can mean a couple dozen things. He cries, she watches him, god watches him, etc.

--

"took the cup to hide" is a pun, a bad one maybe. anyway, it's a phrase that means you keep something for yourself while giving other things away. You hold it to your hip while laying everything else out in front of you.

literally, this stanza in German is:

"And when he came to die he divided his state among his heirs but wouldn't let them have the cup of gold."

so yes, he gives his kingdom away to his heirs.

--

it's not botched meter, it's intentional deviation. read it without prejudice and you'll find it produces an interesting effect.

--

"Er sah ihn stürzen, trinken
Und sinken tief ins Meer,"

literally: "He saw it fall, drinking and sinking deep in the sea"

I didn't change much. and it's a pretty straight forward image... you know, he drinks from the cup and now the cup is drinking from the sea.

--

Thanks for the reply, but next time please don't be so... insert whatever word here.

EDIT: If you are using the already available English translations, know that they deviate the same, if not more than my translations (most of the time).

[jdeirmend]

jringo,

One suggestion I have, before diving in full bore with you, is to use whatever resources you have available to try and retain, with as much exactitude as possible, both meter and rhyme. To this end, there are lots of German-English dictionaries, translation tools, and thesauri available online. This approach of course makes the challenge of translation that much greater, and to achieve the ideal it prescribes is not always possible. BUT, at the end of it all, I think you will be much more pleased with the result, especially when dealing with the work of someone like Goethe, for whom both were so important. There are after all so many synonyms that every word has that are worth exploring, and for me, the process is actually quite a bit of fun. DISCLAIMER: This is just the approach I've used when trying to translate some of Hesse's poetry from German, and as my translations are neither known or authoritative, the approach I prescribe is by no means authoritative.

[milo]

Whoa, Milo, why you gotta hate so hard?

it isn't hate, it is observation. You placed this rather poory written poem in "serious"

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply, so here are my responses:

--

I agree, I do not like the first stanza.

--

Have you read the German? Or only the current English translations of it.

"Die Augen gingen ihm über,
So oft er trank daraus."

or

"The (or her) eyes went over him,
so often he drank thereof."

This can mean a couple dozen things. He cries, she watches him, god watches him, etc.

Vom Himmel??

It's a pretty non religious poem but you turn a stanza that should be about nobles watching him at his court to a stanza about god? And you think this is ok translation? Where do you see heaven in the original (or crimson or red or any of the many other detail you added for that matter?)

--

"took the cup to hide" is a pun, a bad one maybe. anyway, it's a phrase that means you keep something for yourself while giving other things away. You hold it to your hip while laying everything else out in front of you.

Please explain this pun to me, I don't get it. To me it just reads like poorly written verse.

literally, this stanza in German is:

"And when he came to die he divided his state among his heirs but wouldn't let them have the cup of gold."

so yes, he gives his kingdom away to his heirs.

but you changed it completely, because this is not a translation but a poem about another poem. There is a muqch that a translation should achieve. Changing the meaning and adding details are thungs that should be avoided.

--

it's not botched meter, it's intentional deviation. read it without prejudice and you'll find it produces an interesting effect.

if the effect is to read like the first attempt ever to write in verse than it was successful, otherwise it ws not. Out of curiosity, what meter do you believe you are deviating from? And what effect do you believe you are achieving?

--

"Er sah ihn stürzen, trinken
Und sinken tief ins Meer,"

literally: "He saw it fall, drinking and sinking deep in the sea"

I didn't change much. and it's a pretty straight forward image... you know, he drinks from the cup and now the cup is drinking from the sea.

yah this part you didn't change, but what are you translating into "he saw once more her image blink". ?

--

Thanks for the reply, but next time please don't be so... insert whatever word here.

[/quote] awesome. I try not to be all the time, but it is hard.

EDIT: If you are using the already available English translations, know that they deviate the same, if not more than my translations (most of the time).

What I am using doesn't effect what you wrote. This, in its current form, needs a /lot/ of work and it is unclear whether you want to work on it as a poem or as a translation but it currently fails as either.

[tectak]

Hi there. I have undertaken the project of translating Goethe from German to English and I'd like some feedback on what I have so far. I will occasionally post specific poems here on the forum, but I have many already done and online (I translate and post one a day). You can read them at www.goingvongoethe.blogspot.com . I am open to workshops on any of them, just copy and paste the poem here in this thread and we can get to talking =).

Anyway, this is the poem I've been having the most trouble with lately.

The King of Thule

There was a king of Thule
who loved, to the very end,
his maiden's chalice jeweled
death’s finest ruby red.

At each feast he drank
and spoke of no one else;
From heaven she watched him drink,
so oft he drank to heaven’s health.

And when death came for him,
he took the cup to hide;
He gave away his kingdom,
but none would take her ruby eyes.

He held a royal banquet,
gathered all his knights
here at Goden’s hamlet,
high on the Cliffs of Kyte.

And so stood the old dreamer
as he drank the final embers of life,
then threw his lover’s chalice
to the foaming waters of the night.

He watched it drop and drink,
disappearing to the sea.
He saw once more her image blink,
and never drank again.

Oh boy...I know this is risky so I will go rhetorical....when, if ever, is a translation a poem? Harrrumph!
Best,
tectak

[jringo_]

jringo,

One suggestion I have, before diving in full bore with you, is to use whatever resources you have available to try and retain, with as much exactitude as possible, both meter and rhyme. To this end, there are lots of German-English dictionaries, translation tools, and thesauri available online. This approach of course makes the challenge of translation that much greater, and to achieve the ideal it prescribes is not always possible. BUT, at the end of it all, I think you will be much more pleased with the result, especially when dealing with the work of someone like Goethe, for whom both were so important. There are after all so many synonyms that every word has that are worth exploring, and for me, the process is actually quite a bit of fun. DISCLAIMER: This is just the approach I've used when trying to translate some of Hesse's poetry from German, and as my translations are neither known or authoritative, the approach I prescribe is by no means authoritative.

I have considered this for the reason you describe: Goethe used meter and rhyme as law. This is as, in my opinion, he was one of the first romantic poets. Wordsworth and Coleridge would be the English equivalents. English poets haven't written like that since Yeats, and I agree with that sentiment; adhering to such patterned form most often becomes detrimental. Contemporary English poetry uses meter and rhyme in a different effect. If a pattern is created, what does breaking from the pattern do to the reader? If no pattern is established, what will a rhyming couplet do?

An example, though not very contemporary, but one of the best (as this concept at its root deals with how stress is fundamental to the English language, and Blake is a god of stress):

BLAKE, The Sick Rose

O Rose thou art sick.
The invisible worm,
That flies in the night
In the howling storm:

Has found out thy bed
Of crimson joy:
And his dark secret love
Does thy life destroy.

The penultimate line breaks the established sing-song pattern to AMAZING effect. This is done much more subtly in today's poetry

This is the vein in which I'd like to follow my translations.

---

tectak, I like the way you think.


Milo:

Vom Himmel, while a great poet and translator, wrote in the 18th Century and deviates from the German FAR more than I do.

I am beginning to see you are a strict translator. This is good! And it is my fault for my describing my translating style in my first post. I am not a strict translator. I do not believe there is such thing as translation as a poem written in one language can never have identical effect in another. Moving on.

--

Goethe uses religious language in nearly every poem. As such, his poetry is fairly open so such insertion.

--

hide 1 (hd)
v. hid (hd), hid·den (hdn) or hid, hid·ing, hides
v.tr.
1. To put or keep out of sight; secrete.

hide 2 (hd)
n.
The skin of an animal, especially the thick tough skin or pelt of a large animal.

--

I disagree

--

METER broken into stanzas, each number represents number of stresses in a line.

3,3,3,4 / 3,3,3,4 / 3,3,3,4 / 3,3,3,3 / 4,4,3,4 / 3,4,4,3

This pattern creates a song that concludes at the end of the first three stanzas. The fourth stanza creates a song that does not conclude. The penultimate creates a story, the final creates a conclusion.

--

J

EDIT: I missed your final statement. Isn't that what this forum is for? Work shopping uncompleted works? Why would I ask intelligent individuals to critique a poem I thought finished?

[milo]

jringo,

One suggestion I have, before diving in full bore with you, is to use whatever resources you have available to try and retain, with as much exactitude as possible, both meter and rhyme. To this end, there are lots of German-English dictionaries, translation tools, and thesauri available online. This approach of course makes the challenge of translation that much greater, and to achieve the ideal it prescribes is not always possible. BUT, at the end of it all, I think you will be much more pleased with the result, especially when dealing with the work of someone like Goethe, for whom both were so important. There are after all so many synonyms that every word has that are worth exploring, and for me, the process is actually quite a bit of fun. DISCLAIMER: This is just the approach I've used when trying to translate some of Hesse's poetry from German, and as my translations are neither known or authoritative, the approach I prescribe is by no means authoritative.

I have considered this for the reason you describe: Goethe used meter and rhyme as law. This is as, in my opinion, he was one of the first romantic poets. Wordsworth and Coleridge would be the English equivalents. English poets haven't written like that since Yeats, and I agree with that sentiment; adhering to such patterned form most often becomes detrimental. Contemporary English poetry uses meter and rhyme in a different effect. If a pattern is created, what does breaking from the pattern do to the reader? If no pattern is established, what will a rhyming couplet do?

An example, though not very contemporary, but one of the best (as this concept at its root deals with how stress is fundamental to the English language, and Blake is a god of stress):

BLAKE, The Sick Rose

O Rose thou art sick.
The invisible worm,
That flies in the night
In the howling storm:

Has found out thy bed
Of crimson joy:
And his dark secret love
Does thy life destroy.

The penultimate line breaks the established sing-song pattern to AMAZING effect. This is done much more subtly in today's poetry

This is the vein in which I'd like to follow my translations.

---

tectak, I like the way you think.


Milo:

Vom Himmel, while a great poet and translator, wrote in the 18th Century and deviates from the German FAR more than I do.

Vom Himmel means "from heaven" in German, note how it appears nowhere in the original. in fact heaven or God doesn't show up at all ni this poem by a self described "decidedly non-christian" so for you to introduce it twice and make it a central theme to the poem is poor translation.

I am beginning to see you are a strict translator.

I believe translation is one of the most difficult skills to master, especially in poetry. you need to understand not just the author but the culture and times that surrounded him so that you can accurately translate symbolism and double meaning. you should also show preference for the author's taste for sonics as well as rhyme and meter

This is good! And it is my fault for my describing my translating style in my first post. I am not a strict translator. I do not believe there is such thing as translation as a poem written in one language can never have identical effect in another. Moving on.

Here you are not translating, you are writing a poem that is inspired by another, more a loose imitation than a translation.

--

Goethe uses religious language in nearly every poem. As such, his poetry is fairly open so such insertion.

now you are just being ridiculous!

--

hide 1 (hd)
v. hid (hd), hid·den (hdn) or hid, hid·ing, hides
v.tr.
1. To put or keep out of sight; secrete.

hide 2 (hd)
n.
The skin of an animal, especially the thick tough skin or pelt of a large animal.

I know what the definitions are, but where does an animal skin come into play in this story?

--

I disagree

--

METER broken into stanzas, each number represents number of stresses in a line.

3,3,3,4 / 3,3,3,4 / 3,3,3,4 / 3,3,3,3 / 4,4,3,4 / 3,4,4,3

This pattern creates a song that concludes at the end of the first three stanzas. The fourth stanza creates a song that does not conclude. The penultimate creates a story, the final creates a conclusion.

Even if you had achieved this (which you did not) you would be writing in /accentual verse/ which is to say there is no meter.

--

J

EDIT: I missed your final statement. Isn't that what this forum is for? Work shopping uncompleted works? Why would I ask intelligent individuals to critique a poem I thought finished?

Yes, that is what the forum is for, but it is unclear whether you want it developed as a translation or a poem.

[jringo_]

Milo:

Okay.

This is a poem. Workshop it as such.

I will worry whether or not I am following my own views on what constitutes translation.

(Oddly enough, I read "Vom Himmel" as "Longfellow" so my apologies there)

So to the workshop:

Could you expand on your comment about the verse of the poem? How is it not in the form I described. Also, how, if you are correct about the meter, is this accentual verse?

Edit: what I mean to ask is, how is accentual verse different from metrical? My understanding is that accentual is metrical but metrical is not accentual. Similar to a simile vs metaphor.

[Leanne]

Edit: what I mean to ask is, how is accentual verse different from metrical? My understanding is that accentual is metrical but metrical is not accentual. Similar to a simile vs metaphor.

Actually, you've got that around the wrong way. Accentual meter means that there's a regular pattern of stresses independent of metric feet or number of syllables. Metric verse is made up of a set pattern of feet -- so a line of iambic tetrameter has 4 stresses, 8 syllables, no deviation. A line of anapaestic tetrameter has 4 stresses and 12 syllables. A line of accentual verse may have 4 stresses but anywhere from 7 to 12 syllables (even more if you're really stretching it). This means that metric verse is always accentual as there will always be the same stress pattern -- but accentual verse is not metric, or at least not in any regular way.

There was a king of Thule -- there WAS/ a KING/ of THULE -- iambic trimeter, 3 stresses
who loved, to the very end, -- who LOVED/ to the VER/y END -- 2 stresses, two iambs with an anapaest in the middle
his maiden's chalice jeweled -- his MAID/en's CHAL/ice JEWELED -- 3 iambs if you say "jeweled" as one syllable, so 3 stresses
death’s finest ruby red. -- death's FIN/est RU/by RED -- 3 iambs, 3 stresses -- or at a stretch, a spondee (DEATH'S FINE) and 2 iambs

At each feast he drank -- AT /each FEAST/ he DRANK -- headless iamb + 2 iambs, so 3 stresses
and spoke of no one else; -- and SPOKE/of NO/one ELSE -- 3 iambs, 3 stresses
From heaven she watched him drink, -- from HEA/ven she WATCHED/ him DRINK -- iamb, anapaest, iamb -- 3 stresses
so oft he drank to heaven’s health. -- so OFT /he DRANK/ to HEAV/en's HEALTH -- 4 iambs, 4 stresses

And when death came for him, -- and WHEN/ death CAME/ for HIM -- 3 iambs, 3 stresses
he took the cup to hide; -- he TOOK/ the CUP/ to HIDE -- 3 iambs, 3 stresses
He gave away his kingdom, -- he GAVE/ aWAY/ his KINGdom -- 3 iambs, last with a feminine ending, 3 stresses
but none would take her ruby eyes. -- but NONE /would TAKE/ her RU/by EYES -- 4 iambs, 4 stresses

I gave up scanning after this because I saw this comment: "This pattern creates a song that concludes at the end of the first three stanzas. The fourth stanza creates a song that does not conclude. The penultimate creates a story, the final creates a conclusion." This I find to be utter nonsense. Most of your meter is iambic, so why not just render the whole thing into iambs and be done with it? Meter, accent, syllable count or whatever has no bearing on whether or not a poem or song "concludes". When we use a metric pattern we are setting up a solid skeleton for the words to hang on -- in English there are some syllables that are privileged slightly more than others but are still not considered stressed. It is always best to avoid demoting words like "death" to the unaccented part of the foot -- important words should fit into the line in such a way that they are allowed emphasis.

Accentual verse allows for more unstressed syllables but it's not really something that ought to be mucked about with when you're only working in trimeter (for the most part). What's the point? You have iambs. Use them.

[billy]

i followed the feedback and most if not all has been said,

i will make one point though.

when he was dying he divided his state and wealth.

the above means he prepared for death. he was still king and as such it was his kingdom. basically he made a will sharing it all out should he die. :J:

[jringo_]

Milo:

Okay I see what you're saying about the different placements of stresses. How technical!

I have a few issues wish your scanning and scan theory.

"When we use a metric pattern we are setting up a solid skeleton for the words to hang on"

"It is always best to avoid demoting words like "death" to the unaccented part of the foot -- important words should fit into the line in such a way that they are allowed emphasis."

I refer you to my scanning of Blake's The Sick Rose a few posts back.

I would argue that each word is the skeleton, not the meter or the pattern created by those that came before, or those that came after; If a word is stressed, you say it stressed, regardless of its place in the established pattern. As such, you say death's finest Ruby red. This forces the reader to slow down on the last line creating the illusion of conclusion (what is poetry but the art creating illusion through patterns of stresses, much as painting is creating illusion through patterns of brush strokes). Using "The Sick Rose" as an established poem for example: It is not Dark secret, because that is not how you say the word "secret". It is Dark secret, which forces the reader to emphasize that line to great effect.

[Leanne]

You may argue that if you wish, but when reading poetry, meter is established before the words themselves. You have scanned the second stanza of The Sick Rose entirely wrong. It ought to be:

Has found / out thy bed -- anapaestic dimeter, but with an iamb substitute in the first foot
Of crimson joy: -- iambic dimeter
And his dark /secret love -- anapaestic dimeter
Does thy life / destroy. -- anapaestic dimeter, with an iamb substitute in the last foot

Although calling on Blake was rather a non sequitur in this thread anyway, as your control of meter is lightyears away from his. You may not excuse your own inadequacies by throwing up examples of technical brilliance by other poets.

PS. I can't stand it anymore. Yeats was not an ENGLISH poet.

PPS. You could try reading Milo's poetry if you want to know how meter is handled properly by contemporary poets who have mastered it, rather than simply writing off everyone in the last century, although Milo's not an ENGLISH poet either. For that matter, we could give you a list of hundreds of poets writing post WWII who are excellent formalists. Your assumptions and assertions do you no favours.

[jringo_]

Leanne:

I feel like you may be assuming I am making things up. I refer you to those who taught me how to scan Blake, this poem in particular:

James Longenbach
Louise Glück
Tony Hoagland
Ed Hirsch
Jennifer Grotz

We may need to agree to disagree on how to scan a poem. "Secret", for example, is not a one syllable word. And you're right. Yeats was not an English poet as he was an Irish poet. However he was an English poet in that he wrote in English. It is dangerous to mix politics with language.

Also, I do not agree that anyone has "control of meter." A word has a meter, the natural way it is spoken. That is the pleasure of English. We speak in poetry.

I would also like to apologize to Milo, my last response to him should have been to you, Leanne. I assumed he was continuing our conversation, but it was you joining. Thank you for joining! And thank you, Leanne, for your clarifacation of accentual verse.