a point arose about this is not poetry

[billy]

i feel for dale yet i'm not sure i've ever said to someone this is not poetry, i have skirted such ideas by saying this is prose etc.

(i'm just getting the ball rolling)
and if i wasn't such a thick skinned piglet i'd be aghast at being told my poem wasn't poetry.

i think leanne has a valid point in pointing out that one person's non poetry is another's good poetry or not.

i alos think some should be able to say this is not what i see as poetry, which is not the same as "this isn't poetry" being old school if someone told me this isn't poetry i'd more want to know why not than worry about what had just been said.

all the above aside, i'm one of those people who try to be honest without being harsh (and yes, sometimes i fail) sometimes harsh is the only way, my opinion on the said poem is this, no pics in serious poetry and i did see it as a poetry. it needed an edit as most poetry does on this site but it had some good lines, (i'll leave feedback later)

this thread isn't about that said poem though,

it about all the other things i mentioned.

[Todd]

Okay, so when is something prose like without poetic elements, and when is it a prose poem?

Do people accept that there are prose poems? Or do they largely consider that category sophistry?

Take it further, is free verse poetry?

Is experimental poetry poetry or just "too-cute" horseshit?

We all critique. We all have opinions, and we're not shy to share them.

My take:

There's a lot of poems I see written that stay too close to the narrative. You read them and get a "and then this happened" feel. That's where I think they need to be edited to make them less like prose.

I think there are legitimate prose poems (some of Rimbaud springs to mind). That said, a lot of prose poetry could be found poetry in novels so I realize the definition can be blurred. My view of poetry for the little it's worth accepts that there are prose poems, with the caveat, that not every poem with prose elements is a prose poem.

Free verse: definitely poetry

Experimental: Sometimes, but with a great deal horseshit in the mixture.

[Apophrades]

I don't really agree with your narrative point. Would you consider this Emily Dickinson poem more prose than poetry, because there is a clear narrative? Or is it a prose poem? But then again, it's written in verse not prose.

I died for beauty, but was scarce
Adjusted in the tomb,
When one who died for truth was lain
In an adjoining room.

He questioned softly why I failed?
"For beauty," I replied.
"And I for truth - the two are one;
We brethren are," he said.

And so, as kinsmen met a-night,
We talked between the rooms,
Until the moss had reached our lips,
And covered up our names.

[billy]

the above is def not prose.
simply for the fact two corpses are conversing about beauty and death i
i noramally dislike emily's poetry but this one isn't bad and anyway, narrative doesn't equate solely with prose and isn't there such a beast as a narrative poem? it's all about how it's written.
sometimes i'd sooner read good prose than bad poetry. for me it has to have no defined poetical devices to be seen as prose but even that's just my pov, for a start if i miss a few poetic devices the poet used the fault surely lays in my bed and not the poets?

[Todd]

No I don't consider this poem a prose poem. What I'm talking about is when a writer feels compelled to follow a narrative sequence to the detriment of the poem.

If steps: 1, 4, 7, and 8 of the narrative are poetic and the others come across as flat reportage I would say cut them.

Dickinson doesn't come off as prose filler (to say what happened next) and as flat reportage.

[ChristopherSea]

I don't really agree with your narrative point. Would you consider this Emily Dickinson poem more prose than poetry, because there is a clear narrative? Or is it a prose poem? But then again, it's written in verse not prose.

I died for beauty, but was scarce
Adjusted in the tomb,
When one who died for truth was lain
In an adjoining room.

He questioned softly why I failed?
"For beauty," I replied.
"And I for truth - the two are one;
We brethren are," he said.

And so, as kinsmen met a-night,
We talked between the rooms,
Until the moss had reached our lips,
And covered up our names.

No, this is not prose poetry because it has strict syllable counts 8/6 and it has stanzas. This is blank verse. Prose poetry has no meter, rhyme or structure, but is very poetic. Here's a great example, by E. Alexandra:

There were tiny hounds sniffing out their gilded cages. Fireplaces
chaste, unlit and beds soft as the pears I ate from palms outstreched.
The hem of my dress was wet from the fountain and finally it lay on
the floor like the slick blue skin of a fish. We danced silver as a
shiny hook. I heard them clap: red nails flashing smiles. One
misplaced kiss, one eye shut. The concierge bald and fat, cuddling
his little pink prick. The elevator stuck. The city was singing.
Someone was taking pictures. My legs splintered at the hips, and
that night New York wrecked and swelled inside me. A beautiful girl
is a great storm, slapped around by the hands of her own desire.
She lifts up the green skirt of Central Park, wading twelve floors
below, and wishes once more for coachmen and carriage: to be salt
and tear in the horse’s eye, to dissolve beneath his blinders.

[Apophrades]

Maybe we should make a distinction between actual prose e.g. prose in a short story, and "prose filler" or "flat reportage." Just because a poem needs cutting down, does not necessarily make it prose.

---

And my question regarding EDs poem was rhetorical, i consider it to be just poetry

[Todd]

Maybe we should make a distinction between actual prose e.g. a short story, and "prose filler" or "flat reportage." Just because a poem needs cutting down, does not necessarily make it prose.

Agreed. Though we could also say that having prose in a poem doesn't necessarily make it a prose poem.

[Apophrades]

well, that is if a critic like yourself sees the prose in a poem to be filler OR that the prose is necessary because it is written to be a prose-poem

[Todd]

well, that is if a critic like yourself sees the prose in a poem to be filler OR that the prose is necessary because it is written to be a prose-poem

Or a critic like yourself. We all evaluate the effectiveness of what we read.

[Aish]

A piece I wrote was deemed " not poetry" on this site once and I was quite offended by the declaration as well as the commentary following it.
To be quite frank some of the critiques I've read since coming back remind more of a site I left a couple of years back because it was so technical and harsh I felt it stifled creativity instead of fostering skill. Ekphraistic pieces aren't really my cup of tea, but I have written a few (one is posted here) and as long as they aren't abused I don't see the harm.
I always fully admit my educational background is not in poetry, and while I lament that somewhat I would rather be a hack than an elitist cunt.

[billy]

i'm not sure people are saying if a poem needs cutting down it's prose?

i know i'm saying i se prose as having no poetical devices, no assonance, no alliteration, metaphor or simile etc. and like everything else there are exceptions where a poem has poetic device but is only a poem in the ye of the person who wrote it. does a "this isn't poetry" equate to "This is prose"

as for making a distinction, there is already a general one out there, but it doesn't always works. free verse and blank verse; though blank verse uses meter. (which in and of itself doesn't make something poetry (in my view) others wil hold different views.

here's something to think about as well ( not aimed at any particular person but at all of us) these words given in feedback are just that, because they're said doesn't mean they hold any relevance. if anything we give them relevance by wailing against them. i'm also of a mind that sometimes we have a poem posted here that got great kudos elsewhere but no real feedback, poets often like to take kudos as real feedback and while it can be it's often just a tit-fo-tat well done for liking what i wrote. if anything that kudos via the awesom wow, means i never actually bothered reading what you wrote in the way i should have before i say wow. on some sites you can post a bucket of shit and people will fawn over it

but back to the prose thing. while some may be hurt by such a statement they shouldn't be, not really. we're not the houdini's of poetry or critique. (Though we do have a few who are that good on this site) in general we write pretty shitty poetry in the hope of improving (before i get attacked, note the WE, i include myself) if anything this discussion and poem have made me want to write a poem, something i haven't done for far too long. and guess what. it probably won't be that good and someone may say "this isn't poetry" i may think "you bastard" but i'll say "thanks for taking the time to comment" the carzy thing is i'll mean it.

---

A piece I wrote was deemed " not poetry" on this site once and I was quite offended by the declaration as well as the commentary following it.
To be quite frank some of the critiques I've read since coming back remind more of a site I left a couple of years back because it was so technical and harsh I felt it stifled creativity instead of fostering skill. Ekphraistic pieces aren't really my cup of tea, but I have written a few (one is posted here) and as long as they aren't abused I don't see the harm.
I always fully admit my educational background is not in poetry, and while I lament that somewhat I would rather be a hack than an elitist cunt.

yes i agree, we're a terrible site :J:
we do have a place for Ekphraistic poetry though and a good thread for it in the practice forum

nb.

did they say your poem wasn't poetry recently or before your hiatus when you were in love with us ?
the good things about hacks like you and me is that we don't have to stay with these elitist cunts you speak of which is pretty much the same for non hacks. while like people to stay we're not here to placate, hacks or others such as elitist cunts.

i wrote more than one piece that wasn't deemed poetry, i tried to learn why someone thought that way. turned out they were correct and in the least bit elitist

[Aish]

Let me clarify my post a little, I'm not referencing what Dale said earlier. He did make a distinction. I'm referring to brutish behavior in critique. I value honesty and feel it's necessary for any writer to grow. I fervently disagree with attempts to make a member feel like crap.

[billy]

well i can say i don't feel like crap anymore, thanks for clearing that point up :J:

you speak as if there's a fifth column on the site who are going out with nothing else on their mind except to berate and show up.

[Leanne]

Sorry, what? I was quite busy for a while there being an elitist cunt.

[billy]

to me you will always be elite. not sure about the cunt part though. i learnt so much for those elite poets on this site that if anything i'm the elitist admiring what you and others do. but that's just me.
i did struggle to see how elitist cunt and a comment saying this is not poetry go together, and not for the slightest reason would i call the person who used the phrase elitist. dale comes across as a well educated and experience person in life. that's all i see. he's down to earth and i like his honesty. but this thread isn't about leanne or dale of me or aish; its not about elitism. it's about prose and is it okay to say "this isn't Poetry"

---

A piece I wrote was deemed " not poetry" on this site once and I was quite offended by the declaration as well as the commentary following it.
To be quite frank some of the critiques I've read since coming back remind more of a site I left a couple of years back because it was so technical and harsh I felt it stifled creativity instead of fostering skill. Ekphraistic pieces aren't really my cup of tea, but I have written a few (one is posted here) and as long as they aren't abused I don't see the harm.
I always fully admit my educational background is not in poetry, and while I lament that somewhat I would rather be a hack than an elitist cunt.

maybe i said it my memory isn't that great
but it's good enough to say i saw you as a decent poet

[Todd]

Point taken billy, on topic again:

If someone does not believe that prose poems are a real thing, should they attempt critique or should they bypass them?

Thoughts?

[billy]

sorry.

either or.
i'd personally view giving an opinion. id prefer others to give me the same courtesy.
i would prefer to be told it's prose as opposed to it's not a poem though. i'd liked to be led into ways i could change it from prose to poetry etc.

[Leanne]

As a critic, it is important that for the duration of the critique we ask ourselves what the writer was trying to achieve and help them to reach that goal, whether or not it's a style that we personally employ. If it's something you know little about, then ASK before assuming.

[Apophrades]

I agree with Leanne. Because a lot of the poems in this forum are posted in the workshop sections, writers are obviously looking for workshopping not "critiquing" per se. So, I think it would be helpful if writers described their intentions in terms of form, and concept, along with their poem.