a point arose about this is not poetry

[Todd]

@Apophrades: Fair. I just see a workshop as a more of a peer study group than teacher/student. Different people might have more to offer, but you can learn surprising things from even the more inexperienced. I do take your point though.

[milo]

I think you need to learn to separate yourself from your writing. I don't expect my clothes or my hair to be able to go and mingle with people without me there to guard over them but I do expect my writing to.

And you are wrong. If you know what you wrote is shit, you can learn to do it better. You will never do that until someone tells you.

[Apophrades]

I guess teacher implies a position of authority, wrong word maybe. "Advice-giver" i dont know. I agree, workshopping here at least is more a peer study group situation, I guess by teacher/student I just meant exchange of ideas.

---

@milo it is contradictory that you say that and this:"Everything I write is what I think, what is the point qualifying what should be obvious?" unless im taking it out of context, how "separate" can your own ideas be. I guess by separate you mean, to not fret when someone calls your poem shit.

people learn how to do things right either by observation or someone telling them how. telling someone their poem is shit doesnt teach them HOW to do things right, all it does is tell them that what they're doing is wrong. there is a weak correlation. even if you think out of all the possibilities that telling someone their poem is shit will lead to them having an epiphany, and then being motivated to do better, you can still learn how to do things right without anyone ever telling you your work is shit.

---

"I don't expect my clothes or my hair to be able to go and mingle"

can we agree that language, clothing and our appearance are all sign systems. in that sense then, poetry is no more "alive" no more separate or independent than clothing or our hair, which both convey meaning to others/has ability to provoke emotion/thought

[tectak]

I guess teacher implies a position of authority, wrong word maybe. "Advice-giver" i dont know. I agree, workshopping here at least is more a peer study group situation, I guess by teacher/student I just meant exchange of ideas.

---

@milo it is contradictory that you say that and this:"Everything I write is what I think, what is the point qualifying what should be obvious?" unless im taking it out of context, how "separate" can your own ideas be. I guess by separate you mean, to not fret when someone calls your poem shit.

people learn how to do things right either by observation or someone telling them how. telling someone their poem is shit doesnt teach them HOW to do things right, all it does is tell them that what they're doing is wrong. there is a weak correlation. even if you think out of all the possibilities that telling someone their poem is shit will lead to them having an epiphany, and then being motivated to do better, you can still learn how to do things right without anyone ever telling you your work is shit.

---

"I don't expect my clothes or my hair to be able to go and mingle"

can we agree that language, clothing and our appearance are all sign systems. in that sense then, poetry is no more "alive" no more separate or independent than clothing or our hair, which both convey meaning to others/has ability to provoke emotion/thought

I agree with everything...but don't criticise my shit. It's all mine, I tell you....all mine!
....and the next person who says my shit is like poetry will eat poetry!

And ain't that the truth...even if someone posts shit, it's THEIR shit and sometimes they are mighty proud of it...but then you really have to question the motive for posting it...and I haven't started on that one yet! Good 'ere, innit?
Tectak.

[milo]

---

@milo it is contradictory that you say that and this:"Everything I write is what I think, what is the point qualifying what should be obvious?" unless im taking it out of context, how "separate" can your own ideas be. I guess by separate you mean, to not fret when someone calls your poem shit.

I don't even see the word separate in that text you quote. That text refers to the fact that everything I say comes from me, my unique vantage point - IOW, even though I try to call the pope and consult with Jesus Christ everytime i express something, both are too busy so it comes from me. How does this in any way contradict anything else i have ever said?

people learn how to do things right either by observation or someone telling them how. telling someone their poem is shit doesnt teach them HOW to do things right, all it does is tell them that what they're doing is wrong. there is a weak correlation. even if you think out of all the possibilities that telling someone their poem is shit will lead to them having an epiphany, and then being motivated to do better, you can still learn how to do things right without anyone ever telling you your work is shit.

---

"I don't expect my clothes or my hair to be able to go and mingle"

can we agree that language, clothing and our appearance are all sign systems. in that sense then, poetry is no more "alive" no more separate or independent than clothing or our hair, which both convey meaning to others/has ability to provoke emotion/thought

nope. You stay with your clothing and hair to help defend them from others. Writing /needs/ to stand on its own, it is one of the first and most difficult lessons for aspiring writers to learn.

Before aspiring writers can ever learn what to improve or how to improve, they need to learn that they need to improve. This is a painful process that most never get to.

I can tell you because I have been through the process and because I have seen over and over the cycle of denial that aspiring writers absolutely need to get through this. I am guessing your time hasn't come yet.

[ChristopherSea]

I think folks can get the same messege from a 'counciler' as they would from a 'drill sargent', some of you folks are splitting hairs and your pants here.

[milo]

I think folks can get the same messege from a 'counciler' as they would from a 'drill sargent', some of you folks are splitting hairs and your pants here.

I don't think either make good commenters on poetry - both have an investment. Good comments should be as objective as possible. As if you never met the poet and never will. Only the writing should be commented on. And writing will never mind or wilt like the fragile flowers of poets' egos.

[Aish]

Sorry, what? I was quite busy for a while there being an elitist cunt.

Darling, you make wannabe elitist cunts wish they were elitist cunts.( Am not calling you a cunt. You're my hero.)

My phone apparently won't let me quote twice. Billy, I recommend TPP to people all the time, I'm still in love with the site and over the moon it's grown. I've learned a great deal here and will continue to do so.
Tpp was always about elevating skill, imparting knowledge, and having fun. In a spoken conversation the people involved have the benefit of tone and inflection. It's pretty easy to misread a post on a forum without those benefits. If a member is new to constructive crit, overwhelming them could happen easily.
Learning any new skill requires desire and tenacity on the part of the person acquiring the skill. However, not everyone has the constitution or desire to undergo being spoken to as if they were an idiot. It isn't always ego. Inexperience and lack of understanding factor in as well.

[rayheinrich]

These debates over what to name a rose would be amusing if
it weren't for the fact that it distracts you from its smell.

Call it 'writing' and get back to its beauty.

-----

"no pics in serious poetry" said billy

HA HA: Blake, et al

95% of my stuff ('stuff' by any other name...) includes a visual
element. I call it (when forced) multiple-media art.

[Leanne]

These debates over what to name a rose would be amusing if
it weren't for the fact that it distracts you from its smell.

Call it 'writing' and get back to its beauty.

-----

"no pics in serious poetry" said billy

HA HA: Blake, et al

95% of my stuff ('stuff' by any other name...) includes a visual
element. I call it (when forced) multiple-media art.

I call it cross-genre fusion -- and I don't do it because I'm crap at painting/photography/almost every visual art . Notice I don't say "I'm crap at art", because to label only the visual arts as art is as proscriptive as separating prose poetry from poetic prose from prosetry from poem sausages. And let's face it, at the end of the day everything is about sausages.

What does concern me more than a little bit at this point is that there seems to be some rather medieval idea that format has something to do with whether or not something is poetry. So:

When you and I were summer and the sky was greyer than the green that grew between my linden and your oaken strength serene, eternal as the shadows passing by, you whispered me a question. My reply was lost upon the winds of might-have-been -- for change must come to every tranquil scene and gifts from gods are not what they imply. Forever is a dream lost to the dawn and temples fall to dust beneath the years, as roses split the stones and oceans dry; yet boughs will bend and brave the tearing thorn to claim the scars as treasured souvenirs, and laugh until the summer: you and I.

... does this make it prose?

[ChristopherSea]

I think folks can get the same messege from a 'counciler' as they would from a 'drill sargent', some of you folks are splitting hairs and your pants here.

I don't think either make good commenters on poetry - both have an investment. Good comments should be as objective as possible. As if you never met the poet and never will. Only the writing should be commented on. And writing will never mind or wilt like the fragile flowers of poets' egos.

You don't have to read the poem like either one, nor critque in one of those roles. I am referring to the tone of the reply, ie, this is not very good poetry verses this poem is a piece of crap, as a counseler or drill sargent, respectively.

[milo]

I think folks can get the same messege from a 'counciler' as they would from a 'drill sargent', some of you folks are splitting hairs and your pants here.

I don't think either make good commenters on poetry - both have an investment. Good comments should be as objective as possible. As if you never met the poet and never will. Only the writing should be commented on. And writing will never mind or wilt like the fragile flowers of poets' egos.

You don't have to read the poem like either one, nor critque in one of those roles. I am referring to the tone of the reply, ie, this is not very good poetry verses this poem is a piece of crap, as a counseler or drill sargent, respectively.

Generally speaking I don't think we even consider one of your examples acceptable feedback on this forum.

I will say the earliest and most valuable feedback I ever received was "this is shit. Burn it and do the world a.favor."

[ChristopherSea]

I don't think either make good commenters on poetry - both have an investment. Good comments should be as objective as possible. As if you never met the poet and never will. Only the writing should be commented on. And writing will never mind or wilt like the fragile flowers of poets' egos.

You don't have to read the poem like either one, nor critque in one of those roles. I am referring to the tone of the reply, ie, this is not very good poetry verses this poem is a piece of crap, as a counseler or drill sargent, respectively.

Generally speaking I don't think we even consider one of your examples acceptable feedback on this forum.

I will say the earliest and most valuable feedback I ever received was "this is shit. Burn it and do the world a.favor."

Not those exact words as the feedback, the tone of the critique!

[Erthona]

Ray said, "HA HA: Blake, et al"

Something I've rarely said, "Good point Ray!"

Personally I have no problem with "original" artwork being integrated with a poem, a la Blake, I do have a problem with people "enhancing their poetry with artwork of others, as is so often done on All Poetry.com.


Apophrades said:
"Interesting that when everyone is calling you shit, the only voice of ENCOURAGEMENT is your 'muse,' (the fact that you just have to put something down, no matter what anyone says) the only motivation to keep going is one of encouragement, not useless insulting."

Maybe if you were not in such a hurry to make a point you might have realized I said "the Muse", not "my muse", or maybe you don't recognize what that distinction means, if so then I understand why you argue as you do. The ego gets in the way of the creative energy, the ego is what gets it's feelings hurt, the ego is what gets offended. Reducing the ego is of primary importance to the poet as it is the main obstacle to inspiration. Without inspiration (the Muse), one will never go beyond the small and limited area of knowledge and insight one knows as an individual. As we grow, if we fail to reduce the ego, we will conversely reduce inspiration. Reducing the ego in no way causes us to lose our individuality, in fact it makes us more who we are not less. This is the maturation process that all humans need go through, although non-poets have the choice to choose not to mature. In the larger scope of things encouragement and praise are generally the enemies of the poet, a poet can neither stand to be distracted by such , or worse become externally referent-ed. This is not to give carte blanche for people to act unkindly, however in the final analysis the intent of such people hold no significance as far as the growth of the poet.

Dale

[bena]

Well, I've tried to stay out of this discussion but I feel it necessary at this point to say that I personally prefer harsh critiques, but a couple of the crits on this poem did hurt my tiny little feelings (probably because I've been very ill) and have a low tolerance for assumptions, like the fact that I am an amateur writer who doesn't know about prose or narrative poetry. Since this is my forte, I do know quite a bit about it, and believe it or not, I usually shove all kinds of devices and rhythm in there.

I rely quite a bit on my friends to tell me to scrap it, it's shit. It was nothing different in this thread, but it did sting a bit (probably because of my illness and the fact I haven't know you guys very long.)

There was in this instance no harm, but *I* personally wouldn't tell someone an effort wasn't a poem. I would tell them what to change to make it better.

[abu nuwas]

Is it not the received wisdom that calling a poem amazing and awesome, is unhelpful? Reasons why the reader thought it good are OK. Now to assert that one can say that something is shit, is no different, and equally unhelpful to the reader. It is also demanding an unrealistic level of saintliness to assume that the other guy -of whom normally we know sod all - will not be offended, or down-right annoyed and furious. I fail to see why a little friendly courtesy, and sugar-coating is bad. I should have thought it common-sense, and good manners.

I understand the method, however. My late wife experienced it, when, along with all sorts of high-powered lawyers and bankers, graduates and post-graduates of some of our finest Universities (save for her), she took an intensive Chinese evening glass, over one year. The Chinese lady who took the course, fresh out of the People's Republic, followed the 'shit' principle, screaming ''You stupid'' at her distinguished charges. Of course, that did not tell them whether they had got a tone wrong, or a word, or the sentence structure. I am glad to say that my wife was one of the few successes.

[billy]

they don't need to know that "it is absolute shit," but yes agreed, you should tell them exactly what you think is wrong, don't sugarcoat. again, i see this forum as more for mentoring than actual critiquing, yes you do analyse poems, but people come here to get help with their writing. imo, a good teacher won't offend the student.

how close is your writing to your ideas? how close are you ideas to who 'you' are? no matter how many times you tell yourself "the poem is not the poet," you won't stop your emotions, all your doing is putting on a front.

i think the above is what a workshop should be. it's what i hope this place is.

---

I think you never know what is going to hurt someone's feelings,and someone who is a poet will continue no matter what because they do not have a choice. Even if everyone in the world told me my writing was shit, I would still write. The muse will wake me in the middle of the night and not let me get back to sleep until I write down what she wants me to write. If you are going to be a poet, you need to grow a thicker skin so you can get past all the BS and learn to hear criticism effectively. The paradox is that the only way to grow a thick skin is to have people tell you things you don't want to hear, coddling someone only keeps them from growing. A poet will never develop if his ego is constantly hanging out there to get batted around like a cat playing with a ball on a string. Egoism stops the creative energy.

"a good teacher won't offend the student"

A good teacher will offend his student if that is what the student needs. People hold sensibilities that are not conducive to their growth, and so they need to be made aware of this. Such an encounter is rarely pleasant.

Dale

all valid and lets be fair to the critics as well, no one is saying they're good teachers, in general it's just people trying to help people by giving feedback.

---

I think folks can get the same messege from a 'counciler' as they would from a 'drill sargent', some of you folks are splitting hairs and your pants here.

councillors could never make a soldier a soldier.

while i hate to admit it. milo's point for me holds the day. we don't know shit till someone shows us what shit looks like. does it become more palatable if we say the really doesn't work as a poem instead of "this is shit" the latter is to the point. i'm not saying it's what i'd say but i wouldn't castigate anyone for saying it were it true.

as for thick skins, they are the most vital tool a poet has. it allows the poet to throw their ego away. or that bad part of ego that insist their brilliance should be allowed whatever they write.

why do we have thick skins in life? we laugh and joke and say nasty shit to each other and it's all taken in our stride but one wrong word about what we create and the knife comes out to separate testicles from where they hang,

"not a bad meal dear just needs a bit more salt though"

oh thank you dear, here's the salt.

now on poetry.

"not a bad poem dear, need a bit of work on the punctuation though"

"you bastard, i want a divorce and i want it know you callous person you"

---

These debates over what to name a rose would be amusing if
it weren't for the fact that it distracts you from its smell.

Call it 'writing' and get back to its beauty.

-----

"no pics in serious poetry" said billy

HA HA: Blake, et al

95% of my stuff ('stuff' by any other name...) includes a visual
element. I call it (when forced) multiple-media art.

and i agree that that's what it is, though i think the real term is ekphrastic poetry if another art form is involved. in fact i like the pic poetry stuff a lot, it just makes workshopping a poem harder. how can you not say good things about a good pic.

[Apophrades]

I don't even see the word separate in that text you quote. That text refers to the fact that everything I say comes from me, my unique vantage point - IOW, even though I try to call the pope and consult with Jesus Christ everytime i express something, both are too busy so it comes from me. How does this in any way contradict anything else i have ever said?

"Everything I say comes from me, my unique vantage point" - do you not see how there can be confusion when you say that, and "Your writing should stand alone, poem is not you etc." But I realise what you mean to say. If I wanted to be nit-picky I would say: politicians and celebrities get criticised about their appearance all the time, usually from people they have no idea exist. It has never been a question of proximity. Like I said, they are all sign systems, but of course you would elevate writing, I wouldn't expect otherwise on a poetry forum.

nope. You stay with your clothing and hair to help defend them from others. Writing /needs/ to stand on its own, it is one of the first and most difficult lessons for aspiring writers to learn.

Before aspiring writers can ever learn what to improve or how to improve, they need to learn that they need to improve. This is a painful process that most never get to.

I can tell you because I have been through the process and because I have seen over and over the cycle of denial that aspiring writers absolutely need to get through this. I am guessing your time hasn't come yet.

Again, learning THAT they need to improve does not have to be so "negative." e.g. someone might show me writing that is better, greater than mine.

Perhaps, because of course I don't know your story, this "cycle of denial" came from those who didn't have the intention to see you improve, they were just common readers simply reacting to what they read, publishers who didn't think it would draw attention, a myriad of reasons, but none included to see you improve, because honestly why would they give a shit. This is where the role of the mentor/teacher/peer study group whatever, comes in.

---

"not a bad meal dear just needs a bit more salt though"

oh thank you dear, here's the salt.

now on poetry.

"not a bad poem dear, need a bit of work on the punctuation though"

"you bastard, i want a divorce and i want it know you callous person you"

You're looking at it through the lens of a poet. A chef would take more offense to the first than the second. I guess this is the "Ego" at play.

[billy]

it seems we've chewed the shit out of this, or maybe not...i'd advise people now stand back or step away form the thread (gun) and take a moment to realize we're all friends here i say this because i see a stick of dynamite and a bag of flower. normally at this point some one lights a match and everyone else dives for cover....

here's my take, we have a varied and plentiful collection of people who give varied types of feedback. it's almost impossible to police feedback as to what is said. our rule is do not attack the poet and we may jump in if a crit is particularly offensive, other than that the poet chooses whether or not to accept what has been said, whether or not to say fuck that, this place isn't for me. personally i'm not a "this is shit" type of guy but i think it's fair comment if it's quantified with a good reason/s

one of best tools here is to toughen the poets up without stripping the skin of them. the aim for me is not only help the poet through feedback but to help the poet accept feedback. the only real answer for;

this is a shit poem
or
this is shit
or
this is not poetry

is;

thank you for your feedback

or
thank you for taking the time to leave a comment

or
could you help me improve it, or do you think i should just start over.

all these answer instil your maturity, all those answer will make the critic think about his reply and the last reply will almost certainly earn you respect in any critic's eye.

often the critique is not the problem it's the way we accept or decline it.

embrace the dark side people

[Apophrades]

billy, lets be honest, if an exchange literally went like: "this is shit" ---> "thank you for your feedback," first of all, the thank you will always be ironic, secondly, who has learnt anything, who has imparted anything? except, "this person thinks my writing is shit" (this is all we can know for sure! we can;t just assume, the writer will suddenly be inspired to write better, there are too many possibilities).

---

and I'm sorry if I seem aggressive/stubborn, I'll try to stay away from personal attacks, yes we're all friends..