Interpretation...is it valid critique?

[newsclippings]

Pie? Where?

[Leanne]

Sometimes I read one of these poems on here and I can't help doing an eyeroll of 'oh gawd, really' and then I'll read the critique by the people who know stuff and think, oh, I got that wrong then.

I wish more people shared my personal taste.

Don't assume the people who got there before you are right -- if you don't like something, you're perfectly entitled to say so, as long as you also say why. "I don't like this because what the fuck is a ha'penny knickerbocker" is fair enough. Sometimes a poet needs to be pulled up and have someone say that they're drifting dangerously toward obscurity and they've lost touch with their audience.

Although the easiest thing to do is to just assume that all of the other critics are full of it and not read them before you write your own comment . Another point of view, unbiased by previous comments, is a valuable thing.

---

Then again, you could ignore me completely. I'm just irritated that I got here too late and the fat kid has eaten all the pie.

[rayheinrich]

A word is never a cliche. Identifying pi is also not cliche it is identity. "Art is subjective" isn't true identity it is figurative - thus cliche.

Disagreement does not change a subject/word meaning/statement into a
cliché. While I agree that assertions: "Art is subjective", "Abortion
is murder", "Clowns are evil", "Pi is equal to 3", "The world is spherical
(not true, BTW)" may or may not be cliché; calling a debatable assertion
a cliché is quite often a rhetorical ploy that attempts to discredit an
assertion, not by evidence or logical reasoning, but by associating it
with an undesirable quality of some sort. Which is what I think you
are doing in this instance.

And of course words can be clichés: "Twirk" became a cliché overnight
thanks to Miley Cyrus's performance on the 2013 MTV Video Music Awards.

While I certainly think "pi" can be construed as a cliché (it's a stretch,
I grant you); you may disagree. Do you know why?
(here comes another cliché):

Clichés are subjective!

[newsclippings]

TWERK***

[milo]

TWERK***

And Miley was still in diapers when it became a cliche.

---

Also it is slang. Which, I think, make it not pertinent to the argument. It certainly doesn't debunk milo's claim. Most slang terms are cliche. And most slang terms are (ready for it?) figurative.

it isn't a cliche anyway. A word can never be a cliche, it is usage that defines that and definition and identity never meet that definition.

It is clear that there is some basic misunderstanding about the definition of the terms "clche" and "subjective" which is clouding the discussion.

[rayheinrich]

And quoting from a dictionary is terribly clichéd:


cli·ché
[klee-shey, kli-]
noun
1. a trite, stereotyped expression; a sentence or phrase, usually expressing a popular
or common thought or idea, that has lost originality, ingenuity, and impact by long
overuse, such as 'sadder but wiser', or 'strong as an ox'.

3. anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse.


ex·pres·sion
[ik-spresh-uhn]
noun
2. a particular word, phrase, or form of words: old-fashioned expressions.

[milo]

And quoting from a dictionary is terribly clichéd:


cli·ché
[klee-shey, kli-]
noun
1. a trite, stereotyped expression; a sentence or phrase, usually expressing a popular
or common thought or idea, that has lost originality, ingenuity, and impact by long
overuse, such as 'sadder but wiser', or 'strong as an ox'.

3. anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse.


ex·pres·sion
[ik-spresh-uhn]
noun
2. a particular word, phrase, or form of words: old-fashioned expressions.

Whatever your dictionary is, it is pretty poor. Yes, a word can be cliche through /usage/ but never through definition or identity.

Therefore, again, the word "twerk" along with any other word will never be cliche.

[milo]

And Miley was still in diapers when it became a cliche.

---

Also it is slang. Which, I think, make it not pertinent to the argument. It certainly doesn't debunk milo's claim. Most slang terms are cliche. And most slang terms are (ready for it?) figurative.

it isn't a cliche anyway. A word can never be a cliche, it is usage that defines that and definition and identity never meet that definition.

It is clear that there is some basic misunderstanding about the definition of the terms "clche" and "subjective" which is clouding the discussion.

Its/their "use" its really what I meant anyway. I didn't think all the extra typing was necessary not did i have time for it. Slang terms are often figurative use of a word that would otherwise be literal. Twerk however, can never be literal, because it isn't a word. Bit oust used in several different.contexts which i won't get into now, most of them cliche among a certain vernacular group "hip-hop slang", or street slang, ebonics, hood, whatever

twerk is a word now, and it is used mostly as stated in its brand new definition so it is not cliche.

The statement "art is subjective" is a great demonstration of what a cliche is. It pretends to be identity but we can test that identity. If art is subjective, we can replace the word "art" in situations with the word "subjective"

I went to the subjective musem.
There was a subjective show at the college.
My best friend is a subjectivist.

nope, not identity. And it is pretty common. That makes it a cliche - a doozy too, it is so overused as to be considered axiomatic without even consideration which makes it great to roll out as a quote occasionally without any thought.

[milo]

Its/their "use" its really what I meant anyway. I didn't think all the extra typing was necessary not did i have time for it. Slang terms are often figurative use of a word that would otherwise be literal. Twerk however, can never be literal, because it isn't a word. Bit oust used in several different.contexts which i won't get into now, most of them cliche among a certain vernacular group "hip-hop slang", or street slang, ebonics, hood, whatever

twerk is a word now, and it is used mostly as stated in its brand new definition so it is not cliche.

The statement "art is subjective" is a great demonstration of what a cliche is. It pretends to be identity but we can test that identity. If art is subjective, we can replace the word "art" in situations with the word "subjective"

I went to the subjective musem.
There was a subjective show at the college.
My best friend is a subjectivist.

nope, not identity. And it is pretty common. That makes it a cliche - a doozy too, it is so overused as to be considered axiomatic without even consideration which makes it great to roll out as a quote occasionally without any thought.

How the Hell its the def. Band new? Lol I'll show you some ex. Later.

well,

first - of course send me those examples for . .uh . . research purposes.
second - yah, my idea of brand new words is usually a pretty broad time period . . .good catch.

[abu nuwas]

Milo -- ''The statement "art is subjective" is a great demonstration of what a cliche is. ''

This is not so, and is, in fact, a complete misunderstanding of the term 'cliché'. Statements of fact, or opinion, may be repeated ad infinitum nauseamque. 2+2= 4 is not a cliché. Nor is 'Bananas are yellow'. The production and appreciation of art is manifestly subjective. That is what is meant. There are many examples here in all the fora and threads.

[Spikerider]

---

There is an an increase in the use of interpretation rather than technical comment on the boards.
In the sense which we tend to understand or define critique, posters are discouraged from commenting in this vein.
I for one avoid commenting on translation except when I cannot understand what the hell is going on but essentially I want to get at those areas where some improvement can be expected. If all the crit does is speculate or perambulate over and around meaning I find that the response from the writer is never anything other than a) Confirmatory and glad you got it, or b) Well, that's an interesting wayof looking at it, but...or c) What the hell, how obvious do I have to make it?
So I ask the question. Is interpretation a valid form of critique?
Best,
tectak

Interpretation is entirely dependent on one's own life experiences, age, maturity, intelligence & stage of life at the time the poem is read.
Some poets like to present clues for the reader to deduce the "meaning" or intention of the poet's writings. Other poets attempt to present a neon sign of their wordy intentions; this offends some readers because the "sport" of reading poetry is squashed when the subject matter is crammed in your face. A few select poets use metaphors to force the reader to compare "a" w/ "b" to arrive at "c" w/ some "talent" needed by the reader. Lastly, a few poets approach poetry as a science w/ many borders, boundaries & rules
that must be respected at all means..!!! I personally feel that poetry is a form of art w/ words. Art has no boundaries or rules; it is a form of expression. Some of our users have a talent toward technical use of words, definitions or grammar in general; other users have a talent with punctuation uses. Many of our poets just long to share their "thoughts" properly & effectively w/ others in the art of words used with talented expression wielded w/ skill unusual.

---

As one of the frequent offenders of this crime, I am obviously going to contend that I think that this is still a valid form of critique. Both Todd and ChristopherSea have made comments that are well balanced and offer good examples of when & why this form of critique might be acceptable. So I do not think I can add much to what they have said.

Also I would second Todd's closing comment as I think the attitude of inclusion of all levels of ability and engagement with poetry best sums up the spirit of the site.

To my mind the flip side of this discussion is that, at what point does the site become too elitist and in doing so perhaps deters the novice poet. I would be more concerned with a trend that adopts a regimented attitude and a "My way or the high way" mentality. I think if we start inhibiting one style or method over another we are in danger of becoming sterile and homogenised into a one voice, poet alike site. (If this thought is followed to its most brutal outcome, then i think we arrive at a place where we will be nothing better than a cosy club of sycophantic lovies fawning over each other and playing follow the leader or possibly, the most opiniated voice).

For me it is the many voices aspect of the site that keeps it vibrant and keeps me coming back. I don't want to read repetitions of the same crit ideas on a poem written with ever more intellectually cutting and witty putdowns. I want to understand a poem on as many levels that my average intellect will allow for. I appreciate that we cannot all function at the same level, but for me this is the beauty of poetry. It has so many aspects and access points in how it is appreciated that there is plenty of room of all comers and all styles of comments. (Like with all things we need a balance and yes I would agree that if every comment was based on meaning it would be folly, but Basically I'm with Todd when he said "anything beyond: Wow! cool poem is valid for me").


Just some thoughts,
AJ.

Ditto...!!!

[milo]

Milo -- ''The statement "art is subjective" is a great demonstration of what a cliche is. ''

This is not so, and is, in fact, a complete misunderstanding of the term 'cliché'. Statements of fact, or opinion, may be repeated ad infinitum nauseamque. 2+2= 4 is not a cliché. Nor is 'Bananas are yellow'. The production and appreciation of art is manifestly subjective. That is what is meant. There are many examples here in all the fora and threads.

I do not agree that art or the creation of art is subjective. I agree that the appreciation or consumption of art can be subjective and even the identification but even those three rather broad statements are not universal. Iowa, art is not subjective, that is just another tired cliché

[abu nuwas]

Milo -- ''The statement "art is subjective" is a great demonstration of what a cliche is. ''

This is not so, and is, in fact, a complete misunderstanding of the term 'cliché'. Statements of fact, or opinion, may be repeated ad infinitum nauseamque. 2+2= 4 is not a cliché. Nor is 'Bananas are yellow'. The production and appreciation of art is manifestly subjective. That is what is meant. There are many examples here in all the fora and threads.

I do not agree that art or the creation of art is subjective. I agree that the appreciation or consumption of art can be subjective and even the identification but even those three rather broad statements are not universal. Iowa, art is not subjective, that is just another tired cliché

I can supply you with the information, I can't supply you with more. Did you ever notice how often a cliché is said to be 'tired'?

You have no opinion but your own. Ergo, in your opinion art is not subjective. You don't sense that there is a non sequitur in that simple proposition? Take care: you may be deemed to be one of the thickos who have to be told to fuck off.

[billy]

ease up guys, it just a discussion.

[milo]

Milo -- ''The statement "art is subjective" is a great demonstration of what a cliche is. ''

This is not so, and is, in fact, a complete misunderstanding of the term 'cliché'. Statements of fact, or opinion, may be repeated ad infinitum nauseamque. 2+2= 4 is not a cliché. Nor is 'Bananas are yellow'. The production and appreciation of art is manifestly subjective. That is what is meant. There are many examples here in all the fora and threads.

I do not agree that art or the creation of art is subjective. I agree that the appreciation or consumption of art can be subjective and even the identification but even those three rather broad statements are not universal. Iowa, art is not subjective, that is just another tired cliché

I can supply you with the information, I can't supply you with more. Did you ever notice how often a cliché is said to be 'tired'?

You have no opinion but your own. Ergo, in your opinion art is not subjective. You don't sense that there is a non sequitur in that simple proposition? Take care: you may be deemed to be one of the thickos who have to be told to fuck off.

You didn't provide information you provided the same old cliche as axiomatic. Please provide this information to support the rediculous position.

[abu nuwas]

I do not agree that art or the creation of art is subjective. I agree that the appreciation or consumption of art can be subjective and even the identification but even those three rather broad statements are not universal. Iowa, art is not subjective, that is just another tired cliché

I can supply you with the information, I can't supply you with more. Did you ever notice how often a cliché is said to be 'tired'?

You have no opinion but your own. Ergo, in your opinion art is not subjective. You don't sense that there is a non sequitur in that simple proposition? Take care: you may be deemed to be one of the thickos who have to be told to fuck off.

You didn't provide information you provided the same old cliche as axiomatic. Please provide this information to support the rediculous position.

No. Had you been able to understand, you would have. I prefer bed. (You were spelling 'ridiculous' incorrectly, weren't you? As a joke? Otherwise, perhaps the door is nearer than you think. If you can find it, that is. I couldn't.)

[milo]

I can supply you with the information, I can't supply you with more. Did you ever notice how often a cliché is said to be 'tired'?

You have no opinion but your own. Ergo, in your opinion art is not subjective. You don't sense that there is a non sequitur in that simple proposition? Take care: you may be deemed to be one of the thickos who have to be told to fuck off.

You didn't provide information you provided the same old cliche as axiomatic. Please provide this information to support the rediculous position.

No. Had you been able to understand, you would have. I prefer bed. (You were spelling 'ridiculous' incorrectly, weren't you? As a joke? Otherwise, perhaps the door is nearer than you think. If you can find it, that is. I couldn't.)

If you had bothered to read the thread you would have seen that I already stated the only new thing you offered - that if something is identity or definition it cannot be cliché. Other than that you just repeat the same cliché - art is subjective.

Art isn't subjective, it is possibly the most objective thing we as humans have knowledge of ever. Even mathematics yields to subjectivity in relativistic terms but not art.

[Truerenigma]

A work of art is an object, and therefore not subjective. Whether or not it it is perceived as art/or how/why is subjective the to opinions, views and perceptions of the ones perceiving it. The perception itself may be subjective, dependent on circumstances ranging from the philosophical " I may see things differently from you" to the seemingly minuet details such as the lighting in the room. Art as a whole is not subjective, because that would open it up to the argument that it may not exist, (and if not, do we then exist etc. etc. ad nauseam), and we know that it exists, at least insofar as we perceive it to.The opinion that art is subjective was not a cliche when it was originally expressed, but quoting old popular opinions and phrases, especially outside of the context of their original argument, as your own opinion, or as fact, is cliche.

[abu nuwas]

You didn't provide information you provided the same old cliche as axiomatic. Please provide this information to support the rediculous position.

No. Had you been able to understand, you would have. I prefer bed. (You were spelling 'ridiculous' incorrectly, weren't you? As a joke? Otherwise, perhaps the door is nearer than you think. If you can find it, that is. I couldn't.)

If you had bothered to read the thread you would have seen that I already stated the only new thing you offered - that if something is identity or definition it cannot be cliché. Other than that you just repeat the same cliché - art is subjective.

Art isn't subjective, it is possibly the most objective thing we as humans have knowledge of ever. Even mathematics yields to subjectivity in relativistic terms but not art.

I saw it. ''If something is identity'' -meaningless. I cannot help you. Good-night.

[milo]

No. Had you been able to understand, you would have. I prefer bed. (You were spelling 'ridiculous' incorrectly, weren't you? As a joke? Otherwise, perhaps the door is nearer than you think. If you can find it, that is. I couldn't.)

If you had bothered to read the thread you would have seen that I already stated the only new thing you offered - that if something is identity or definition it cannot be cliché. Other than that you just repeat the same cliché - art is subjective.

Art isn't subjective, it is possibly the most objective thing we as humans have knowledge of ever. Even mathematics yields to subjectivity in relativistic terms but not art.

I saw it. ''If something is identity'' -meaningless. I cannot help you. Good-night.

Good thing I never asked for help then.

Good night.