Senryu?

[rayheinrich]

Senryu? Just in case anyone is interested:


Haiku? Senryu? Explanation of the grey areas: (2nd post down)
http://raysweb.net/senryu/haikuvssenryrshiki.html

English senryu is haiku; Japanese senryu is bawdy, obscene verse written in male-only bars:
http://www.ahapoetry.com/AHI%20senryu%20art.html

Senryu examples:

"If it is man within the world, it is haiku. If it is the world within the man, it is senryu." - Anita Virgil

above quote is from Tom Clausen's list of his favorite senryu:
http://home.earthlink.net/~tclausen/id26.html

Results of Atlantic Online Senryu Contest:
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unb...tm#results

[rayheinrich]

[Haiku has love soul heart hate etc. only
it doesn't usually name them (there are many exceptions), it uses
natural metaphors to express them. And yes, haiku is FULL of
metaphor.

There's a great gray area where a poem can be either.

Yes, senryu don't need a season word but poems that are both do.

"who said english senryu are haiku?"
The respected expert on haiku/senryu in that link above.
Read it, she makes a good case for it. One thing's for
sure: 95% of English senryu wouldn't be Japanese senryu.

That senryu definition you give includes a lot of haiku. Like she
and he say above: there is no firm dividing line; about %40 - 70%
of all these poems are both.

Read some of those links I included, they're by people who know
100 to a 1000 times more than we do. Our opinions, though we
love to spout them, are based on ignorance. (Yours, of course,
much more so than mine.) [/font]

[Brownlie]

I think the Haiku and Senryu have possibilities because you can instantly compare two items by cutting. That is what is most compelling to me about the genre.

[billy]

Haiku Form:

English-Language haiku is incorrectly said to have a prescribed form of three lines of 5-7-5 syllables and a seasonal reference. However, there is a great deal of debate about the form of English haiku and few agree that the3-line, 5-7-5 season reference form is the only acceptable form.

What then is the form of a haiku? Some of the critical aspects of haiku form that have been mentioned are:

Brevity: one to three lines totaling 17 syllables or less; the average length of published English-language haiku is about 13 syllables. Some suggest that a better measure of brevity is that when read aloud, a haiku can be completed in one breadth. Try reading aloud the spring sun haiku (above) and see if you can do it in one breath.
Two phrases: most (not all) haiku are composed of two distinct phrases. In the spring sun haiku the phrases are: 1) spring sun and 2) cedar waxwings fill the leafless plum.
Descriptiveness: haiku describe things, what case be seen, heard, tasted, felt or smelled. They don't prescribe or tell or intellectualize or state the poet's feelings about things.
Lack of poetic devices: avoidance of traditional poetic forms such as rhyming, simile and metaphor.
Juxtaposition: the two phrases are seemingly about different elements noticed by the writer, but the relationship between them is what provides the poetic spark. In the example above, the feel of the spring sun on the body is being likened to the sight of birds (cedar waxwings) filling up a leafless tree.

sourced from the following site http://raysweb.net/senryu/haikuvssenryrshiki.html

one of your own expert sources i believe.

---

as to your quote by the respected expert Jane Reichhold

where did she say

[Haiku has love soul heart hate etc. only
it doesn't usually name them (there are many exceptions), it uses
natural metaphors to express them. And yes, haiku is FULL of
metaphor.

There's a great gray area where a poem can be either.

Yes, senryu don't need a season word but poems that are both do.

"who said english senryu are haiku?"
The respected expert on haiku/senryu in that link above.

Read it, she makes a good case for it. One thing's for
sure: 95% of English senryu wouldn't be Japanese senryu.

where has anyone denied this fact?

Read some of those links I included, they're by people who know
100 to a 1000 times more than we do.

stop talking through your arse

Our opinions, though we
love to spout them, are based on ignorance. (Yours, of course,
much more so than mine.) Smile

or is it actually something you concocted all this bullshit from what she actually said.?

where has anyone said a haiku can't also be a senryu?
where does Jane Reichhold "your expert" say
"it uses
natural metaphors to express them. And yes, haiku is FULL of
metaphor."
if you read your own links you'll see her explain that senryu as far as most people are concerned is a modern bastardisation in it's present form.

here's a statement from your expert that made me laugh more than i should have

. I strongly believe if a writer calls his/her work haiku, it IS haiku

i suppose if they call their three liner a sonnets, that will work for her as well.

what you're doing is pigeon pecking at your own shit, you stick up links you probably haven't read and use self inflated quotes to make it look like your expert said it.

of course rules can be broken and of course at times a haiku can look like a senryu, but there are rules both have to adhere to in order to fall into both forms. it is not a gray area, where the fuck did your statistic of 40% - 70% come from

all this shit because i said spring does not look into the look of some pice of shit or other?

personally i think you post a lot of bollox after doing cursory googles

you actually lie in post in order to gain points ...fucking sad,
and yes, i'm calling some of what you say a lie.

back to this shit

Haiku has love soul heart hate etc. only
it doesn't usually name them (there are many exceptions), it uses
natural metaphors to express them. And yes, haiku is FULL of
metaphor.

only it doesn't name them, what does it do, telephone the reader and tells them about it. of course it doesn't name them. it's because it seldom uses them.

a reader can find a metaphor in a lump of shit if they wish but the intent of the haiku is to capture a concrete image without any fucking fuss no one said it can't be funny, no one said it can't be like a senryu, no one says you can't spit a dummy if someone else calls your haiku a senryu.

you're a good poet ray, a really good poet but you're also full of shit

[rayheinrich]

you're a good poet ray, a really good poet but you're also full of shit

You went down too far in the thread on this one:

Haiku? Senryu? Explanation of the grey areas: (2nd post down)
http://raysweb.net/senryu/haikuvssenryrshiki.html

Notice I said "(2nd post down)", That's the one about the gray areas.

Here's a standard definition of metaphor (this one from from wiki):

A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes a subject by asserting
that it is, on some point of comparison, the same as another otherwise
unrelated object.


I.e. The two parts of a haiku form a metaphor.
So not only can there be metaphor IN a haiku;
but the entirety of a haiku IS a metaphor,

And speaking of internal metaphor: Season words (kigo) are
metaphors as well. While there are only 13 (counting New Years)
main seasonal divisions, there are quite a few thousand kigo.
One reason for this is that kigo are not only metaphors for seasons,
but they denote (depending on the ones you choose) emotions and
other social and abstract qualities as well (love, hate, courage, sorrow,
puzzlement, comradeship, logic, truth, falsehood, existence, Buddhist
parables, etc.). So the kigo are a separate and quite dense source of
symbolic meaning in haiku. They are often described as the haiku's 'window'.

I.e. Kigo are literally metaphors.

(Above is paraphrased by me, not originated.)

[milo]

you're a good poet ray, a really good poet but you're also full of shit

You went down too far in the thread on this one:

Haiku? Senryu? Explanation of the grey areas: (2nd post down)
http://raysweb.net/senryu/haikuvssenryrshiki.html

Notice I said "(2nd post down)", That's the one about the gray areas.

Here's a standard definition of metaphor (this one from from wiki):

A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes a subject by asserting
that it is, on some point of comparison, the same as another otherwise
unrelated object.


I.e. The two parts of a haiku form a metaphor.
So not only can there be metaphor IN a haiku;
but the entirety of a haiku IS a metaphor,

And speaking of internal metaphor: Season words (kigo) are
metaphors as well. While there are only 13 (counting New Years)
main seasonal divisions, there are quite a few thousand kigo.
One reason for this is that kigo are not only metaphors for seasons,
but they denote (depending on the ones you choose) emotions and
other social and abstract qualities as well (love, hate, courage, sorrow,
puzzlement, comradeship, logic, truth, falsehood, existence, Buddhist
parables, etc.). So the kigo are a separate and quite dense source of
symbolic meaning in haiku. They are often described as the haiku's 'window'.

I.e. Kigo are literally metaphors.

(Above is paraphrased by me, not originated.)

I am with Ray on this one for the following reason:

ANY pivot or turn is essentially a metaphor. Haiku have pivots, Haiku have metaphor.

(That Kigo stuff is a load of crap though)

[billy]

for give me for thinking your not all there ray but below is a quote from the site you mention it isn't a reply to a post but a quote, it isn't something i tacked together, it's a quote...from your fucking source.

http://raysweb.net/haiku/pages/haiku-definition.html

Haiku Form:

English-Language haiku is incorrectly said to have a prescribed form of three lines of 5-7-5 syllables and a seasonal reference. However, there is a great deal of debate about the form of English haiku and few agree that the3-line, 5-7-5 season reference form is the only acceptable form.

What then is the form of a haiku? Some of the critical aspects of haiku form that have been mentioned are:

Brevity: one to three lines totaling 17 syllables or less; the average length of published English-language haiku is about 13 syllables. Some suggest that a better measure of brevity is that when read aloud, a haiku can be completed in one breadth. Try reading aloud the spring sun haiku (above) and see if you can do it in one breath.
Two phrases: most (not all) haiku are composed of two distinct phrases. In the spring sun haiku the phrases are: 1) spring sun and 2) cedar waxwings fill the leafless plum.
Descriptiveness: haiku describe things, what case be seen, heard, tasted, felt or smelled. They don't prescribe or tell or intellectualize or state the poet's feelings about things.
Lack of poetic devices: avoidance of traditional poetic forms such as rhyming, simile and metaphor.
Juxtaposition: the two phrases are seemingly about different elements noticed by the writer, but the relationship between them is what provides the poetic spark. In the example above, the feel of the spring sun on the body is being likened to the sight of birds (cedar waxwings) filling up a leafless tree.

sourced from the following site http://raysweb.net/senryu/haikuvssenryrshiki.html

we know what metaphors are. we know the concesus is that haikyu usually steer clear of metaphor. your paraphrasing is just that, paraphrase, sadly it's not paraphrased from any reliable source but from some sun stream of bitterness in order to porve a point after a comment that your senryu wasn't a haiku you spat your dummy like a fucking newb, it why you don't dare post in mild, novice or serious. you can't take criticism. i know this because you've told me so. it's why you post in the for fun section.

while i know, i know a little, you think you know a lot, truth is you also know very little . the difference is you concoct and paraphrase and posts replies to posts as though you're a haiku or should i say senryu god in order to bolster you ego, you're a troll ray, a troll who can't accept feedback.

---

I am with Ray on this one for the following reason:

ANY pivot or turn is essentially a metaphor. Haiku have pivots, Haiku have metaphor.

(That Kigo stuff is a load of crap though)

Now, the important part about the cut, the kireji, which cuts the two parts of the haiku is that it leaves the poem open for the reader to complete. So, it's like the linked verse. You have one verse, the verse is basically unfinished. The next person has to complete that by adding a verse. The same thing happens within the bounds of the haiku, or the hokku. The two parts are sliced in half, and there's an open space which the reader, the audience, is supposed to enter into. [from] http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/at/basho/hbb04.html

the cut is used as punctuation. the reader of the poem can add whatever they wish between the ist image and the 2nd part of the image. but the actual cut is not a metaphor. they are two distinct parts.


if there' any reasonable amount of source material that says otherwise i'll gladly read it

Lack of poetic devices: avoidance of traditional poetic forms such as rhyming, simile and metaphor.

this is a quote from http://raysweb.net/haiku/pages/haiku-definition.html
a linked site ray used.

Ray Rasmussen who is the auther of the piece has written pieces for, the new zealand poetry society THE HAIKU MOMENT & BEYOND by Ray Rasmussen is one of them
part of bio reads

Ray Rasmussen currently lives in Edmonton, Canada. His haiku and haibun have been published in most of the haiku and haibun genre online and print journals. He enjoys hiking, photography and writing and occasionally teaches a University course.

and he has a pretty good site. http://raysweb.net/haiku/

---

The Author

The teaching lessons on this website have been piloted in schools and colleges many times. They are written by George Marsh, who is the author of Teaching Through Poetry: Writing and the Drafting Process, published by Hodder and Stoughton in 1988. George has taught in schools, and in the teacher training departments and in the literature departments of the University of Portsmouth and University College Chichester. He has also run a poetry development programme in secondary schools for the South Downs College, Hampshire, and was Writer-in-Residence at Kingston Prison and Writer-in-Residence to the centenary of Portsmouth Football Club.

http://haiku.insouthsea.co.uk/index.htm

what he says of metaphore

Part 3 - Metaphor, simile and stylistic ornament
It is a rule with a number of notable exceptions: Haiku do not use metaphors and similes. One could quote a handful of haiku that have a metaphor or simile, to challenge the rule. Nevertheless it is true that, compared to the poetic tradition that we in the British Isles have inherited, replete with brilliant comparisons, as if the whole value of poetry lay in metaphorical ingenuity, the haiku tradition eschews the way of stunning similarities unusually combined.

http://haiku.insouthsea.co.uk/metaphor.htm

---

while ther may be an instance or instances of metaphor in haiku, it's not seen as a common practice.

like all forms you can play about with them till the day comes home but a sonnet is a sonnet, a vill is a vill and a haiku is a haiku.

[milo]

I am with Ray on this one for the following reason:

ANY pivot or turn is essentially a metaphor. Haiku have pivots, Haiku have metaphor.

(That Kigo stuff is a load of crap though)

Now, the important part about the cut, the kireji, which cuts the two parts of the haiku is that it leaves the poem open for the reader to complete. So, it's like the linked verse. You have one verse, the verse is basically unfinished. The next person has to complete that by adding a verse. The same thing happens within the bounds of the haiku, or the hokku. The two parts are sliced in half, and there's an open space which the reader, the audience, is supposed to enter into. [from] http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/at/basho/hbb04.html

the cut is used as punctuation. the reader of the poem can add whatever they wish between the ist image and the 2nd part of the image. but the actual cut is not a metaphor. they are two distinct parts.


if there' any reasonable amount of source material that says otherwise i'll gladly read it

A turn forces readers to compare/contrast 2 disparate entities as if they were the same which is why a cut/turn/pivot is always a metaphor. Ideally, a volta should be a statement of a poems central metaphor.

[billy]

yes it's called a juxtaposition and usually it works with two abstracts,

in the haiku, the cutting word is used as punctuation, ie a Caesura or period. the haiku has two contrasting images both

from wiki (cos it was the easiest )

A kireji fills a role somewhat analogous to a caesura in classical western poetry or to a volta in sonnets. Depending on which cutting word is chosen, and its position within the verse, it may briefly cut the stream of thought, suggesting a parallel between the preceding and following phrases, or it may provide a dignified ending, concluding the verse with a heightened sense of closure.

i understand what you're saying about a statement of the main metaphor in a sonnet

unlike the sonnet, the haiku has no main metaphor for the cut to make a statement about about. it plays one image of another; this line is just conjecture on my part based on what i've been reading on haku and i do realise or think you have a much greater knowledge of poetry compared to mine.

---

ihave to piss off for now but thanks for the input milo. i'll do a bit more reading on the subject

[Brownlie]

yes it's called a juxtaposition and usually it works with two abstracts,

in the haiku, the cutting word is used as punctuation, ie a Caesura or period. the haiku has two contrasting images both

from wiki (cos it was the easiest )

A kireji fills a role somewhat analogous to a caesura in classical western poetry or to a volta in sonnets. Depending on which cutting word is chosen, and its position within the verse, it may briefly cut the stream of thought, suggesting a parallel between the preceding and following phrases, or it may provide a dignified ending, concluding the verse with a heightened sense of closure.

i understand what you're saying about a statement of the main metaphor in a sonnet

unlike the sonnet, the haiku has no main metaphor for the cut to make a statement about about. it plays one image of another; this line is just conjecture on my part based on what i've been reading on haku and i do realise or think you have a much greater knowledge of poetry compared to mine.

---

ihave to piss off for now but thanks for the input milo. i'll do a bit more reading on the subject

I think Jack Kerouac did a book of haikus, it might be worth checking out.

[milo]

yes it's called a juxtaposition and usually it works with two abstracts,

in the haiku, the cutting word is used as punctuation, ie a Caesura or period. the haiku has two contrasting images both

from wiki (cos it was the easiest )

A kireji fills a role somewhat analogous to a caesura in classical western poetry or to a volta in sonnets. Depending on which cutting word is chosen, and its position within the verse, it may briefly cut the stream of thought, suggesting a parallel between the preceding and following phrases, or it may provide a dignified ending, concluding the verse with a heightened sense of closure.

i understand what you're saying about a statement of the main metaphor in a sonnet

unlike the sonnet, the haiku has no main metaphor for the cut to make a statement about about. it plays one image of another; this line is just conjecture on my part based on what i've been reading on haku and i do realise or think you have a much greater knowledge of poetry compared to mine.

---

ihave to piss off for now but thanks for the input milo. i'll do a bit more reading on the subject

I would say you actually know quite a bit more than I do about Haiku and probably eastern poetry in general. The debate may come from the disparity between the original intention of Haiku (eastern) and our current usage(western)

The reason Ray sees metaphors in Kigo is because Ray knows there are metaphors in everything, but these are /reader/ metaphors as they are neither deliberate nor deducible so, for our purposes, Kigo are not metaphors.

The pivot is another matter and I know many authors do not even use a pivot but for those who do, it is a deliberate and deducible writer controlled comparison and in western poetry that means metaphor. One of the members on this site (fogglethorpe) does a good job of this. Look at these 2 that he posted to this site:

crow
on a streetlamp-
town crier

all night market-
a drifter and a dog
share a burrito

the pivot sets up a clear and deliberate comparison and in western poetry, that means metaphor.

[rayheinrich]

for give me for thinking your not all there ray but below is a quote from the site you mention it isn't a reply to a post but a quote, it isn't something i tacked together, it's a quote...from your fucking source.

http://raysweb.net/haiku/pages/haiku-definition.html

Great conversation, don't have time to wade in at moment, but I
see it's going well.

Just wanted to correct billy for the 3rd time:
'raysweb' ISN'T my source.

Look carefully at the url below:
http://raysweb.net/senryu/haikuvssenryrshiki.html

The post I wanted you to read is the second post down.
It's the one by Michael Welch. He has nothing to do with the
site. The definition from the site proper is terrible.

Again: Use this URL:
http://raysweb.net/senryu/haikuvssenryrshiki.html
Read Michael Welch's post which is the 2nd one down.

Jeez, the things you gotta do just to get a few interesting,
very moderate, and well-balanced lines of Michael Welch's read.

Have fun,
Ray

[billy]

he doesn't mention metaphor.

your paraphrasing is actually not even that, it's made up jibberish.

this is what he says in your post.

I just read Jim Mullins' post to the Shiki list asking about senryu and
thought I'd reply. Regarding haiku vs. senryu -- that's an old yet ongoing debate.
The best explanation of the grey areas is this, I think. Both haiku and
senryu can be funny, but if it's funny, it's probably senryu. Both haiku and
senryu can be about nature, but if it's about nature, it's probably a haiku.
Here's another way to distinguish them. Both haiku and senryu can be about
nature or human nature. Both haiku and senryu can be serious or
humourous/satirical. A serious poem about nature is certainly haiku. And a
funny/satirical poem about human nature is certainly senryu. It's the *other*
combinations that fall into the grey area and cause confusion. For example,
both a serious poem about human nature and a funny poem about nature may seem
to be either haiku or senryu. The point is, apart from the two types of poems
where it is *clear* whether they are haiku or senryu, the distinctions don't
really accomplish much.

to paraphrase.

a haiku and a senryu can be either depending on it's content,
but only if they respectively fill the criteria of both. he doesn't mention metaphor or simile or any of the other shit your spouting. usually if it has a metaphor etc it's deemed a senryu.

[Leanne]

95% of 'ku written today are nothing much more than faux-poetic aphorisms cut up into three lines. All of the writings about haiku/senryu and how they translate into English are really just examples of what's already been done and then backwards-programming the rules according to the results deemed "best" by arbitrary judgment.

Ku evolved. They should continue to evolve. Poetry moves on, otherwise every sonnet would still be stuck in the thees and thous.

And incidentally, a haiku is just a sonnet with fewer words :p

[billy]

I would say you actually know quite a bit more than I do about Haiku and probably eastern poetry in general. The debate may come from the disparity between the original intention of Haiku (eastern) and our current usage(western)

yes and it's more ulta modern than modern the same way the modern sonnet is. example;
[quote]Another which is Wandering blames in flames By the same is below

Swerving pages, pages of forgotten memories entwined in the behinds,

Memories hacked into a slacking haggard cursed tree,

Memories flown and blown by the gentle stormy winds,

Memories nostalgia, memories disremembered memories of thee.

Over... a barrel I sit in the view of weeping skies,


Her tears gracing my cheeks, her fears sneaking and slinking in my cold blood

Like a bat out of hell the winds thunder my very heart to my defiled eyes,

Who will save me from this cursed blessing foundered on me in this mud?

With bated breath I will wait,

Batten down the hatches in the ashes of my curser, the begetter of this bedevils.

Cursed am I that my eyes can only see the beams in another’s fate,

Though I am a beggar belief I am the better devil.

Lain In the cradle of the saddle that I paddled,

I sail close to the breeze the gods would handle.

no one teaches people to write a sonnet this way untill they actually know the form, and even then most would shy away from doing such a thing, (i've even seen a six line sonnet done by a well known poet though i can't remember there fucking name )

The reason Ray sees metaphors in Kigo is because Ray knows there are metaphors in everything, but these are /reader/ metaphors as they are neither deliberate nor deducible so, for our purposes, Kigo are not metaphors.

this more or less coincides with what i said,

quote]The pivot is another matter and I know many authors do not even use a pivot but for those who do, it is a deliberate and deducible writer controlled comparison and in western poetry that means metaphor. One of the members on this site (fogglethorpe) does a good job of this. Look at these 2 that he posted to this site:

crow
on a streetlamp-
town crier

all night market-
a drifter and a dog
share a burrito

the pivot sets up a clear and deliberate comparison and in western poetry, that means metaphor.

i've read these before by the renowned haikust who also states
" if the poet calls it a haiku, it's a haiku"
the consensus is that the kireji or cutting word, (the pint where the trun begins is punctuation. the western version does what you see above, they use and elipse...i'll find a quote...okay it's wiki again

In English, since kireji have no direct equivalent, poets sometimes use punctuation such as a dash or ellipsis, or an implied break to create a juxtaposition intended to prompt the reader to reflect on the relationship between the two parts.

the haiku above when taken at face value have logic, both parts of each haiku do. they're straight forward

what Jane Reichhold does with them is imbues them with her own take on two crisp images


Now in haiku, the experts say we must cast aside this trusty tool. But wait a minute. Basho was Japan's most famous poet. Did he use metaphor?

Let us dare to rewrite his most famous

she has the fucking audacity to rewrite a basho poem

"on a bare branch
a crow settles
autumn dusk"

into:
the heavy way a crow settles on a bare branch is just like the way dusk comes in late autumn.


Given this, the reader's mind says yes, both are dark, autumn dusk is similar to heavy feathers that suddenly descend through the empty tree filling it with darkness. Yes, the black crow is the harbinger of death, the time of rest in nature and in life. If you've ever been near where a crow suddenly lands you've felt this fear folded under its wings, the surprise it is so black, so large, so threatening, so cold -- just as late autumn is.

she is doing exactly whats being discussed and agreed upon. she's inventing metaphor, she the reader is seeing more than what's written.

---

where is the mention heavey or how the crow settles.

seldom oare idioms or figures of speech used in haiku and because of this the cut is just a cut. it doesn't explain anything, it doesn't reveal anything. the reader can do those thing if they wish but if they do it's presumption, as presumptive as Jane Reichhold is with her rewriting of a basho poem

[rayheinrich]

A few examples:


My life, -
How much more of it remains?
The night is brief.
- Shiki

Over the wintry
forest, winds howl in rage
with no leaves to blow.
- Soseki

Don’t weep, insects –
Lovers, stars themselves,
Must part.
- Issa

autumn winds
in the sliding door's opening
a sharp voice
- Basho

the moon so pure
a wandering monk carries it
across the sand
- Basho

The winter storm
Hid in the bamboo grove
And quieted away.
- Basho

peonies --
hundreds swaying
like a hot bath
MORI Sumio

summer grasses——
the wheels of the locomotive
come to a stop
- YAMAGUCHI Seishi

Under the protection of a big tree,
People's hearts are at rest."
- Taijyu ('big tree' stands for 'the Shogunate')

[billy]

could you explain all the metaphors you see above please
i'm presuming you just packed it out with the last one...did you write it?

while some do step outside the accepted rule , you still refuse to accept the phrase, exceptions to the rules and what it implies.

some of the exceptions above are written by masters, i'd expect them to stretch the rules.
on the other hand, i would'nt expect you to stretch an elastic band :J:

[rayheinrich]

could you explain all the metaphors you see above please

Have been busy, but intend to fill some of them in.

i'm presuming you just packed it out with the last one...did you write it?

Nope, copied it with the 'ku.

[billy]

Nope, copied it with the 'ku.

i know,

Shirao wrote some great haiku.