using other forms besides iambic pentameter.

[Leanne]

are the cats fixed?

[billy]

I'd like to see what people think in regards to poetic theory, and I'd like people to start considering what they are doing when they write so they are not just taking stabs in the dark. I am fairly new to poetry myself and I would like to see some of the newer users educate themselves so we can all start writing real poetry and learn to appreciate this art that is often misunderstood. What forms work and why?

as was pointed out, that's one of the tenets the of this forum and the main reason we have a novice forum. some of the new guys are trying to do just what you ask. the main problem is ....it takes time. i've been writing poetry for a fair while now and i still don't know what the fuck an iambic line of poetry is allowed to be. and here i am (or there i am) in serious saying what is and what isn't iambic pentameter. the new guys guys are writing real poetry, i'm wondering if you mean good poetry? again that takes a long time for many poets, i'm lucky if i get one a year done that's any good. i say the let those new to poetry take all the time they need to learn, to do so with very small steps. more than anything they need to read good poetry and attempt to give feedback, these two things on there own will help improve how they write more than a lot of other stuff. these things give them something to compare what meter, device, form or style they've reached so far, and how they could possibly improve..

[rayheinrich]

are the cats fixed?

All of the inside ones are fixed, but the outside ones aren't.
But since the outside cats have four feet, I think this
characteristic outweighs the fact that they are un-fixed;
so I employ four-footed fixed lines for them as well.
(Though there is one [her name's Bastet] who has only
three legs; her lines, of course, are trimetric ones.)

There is a difference, by the way, between the outside
cats' lines and the inside ones: The inside cats' lines
are, obviously, catalectic.

[milo]

are the cats fixed?

All of the inside ones are fixed, but the outside ones aren't.
And yes, the un-fixed cats' poems still employ fixed lines.
(The inside cats' four-footed lines are, of course, catalectic.)

categorically sound logic

[rayheinrich]

categorically sound logic

Oops, damn, again you are too fast for me.
I've updated the one you read (see above).

[milo]

categorically sound logic

Oops, damn, again you are too fast for me.
I've updated the one you read (see above).

the benefits of spending 24 hours a day on this sight.
Wait. That can't be right.

[Brownlie]

According to wikipedia there are four types of disyllables the iamb, the trochaic foot, the pyrrhus, and the spondee. There are also various "trisyllables" listed.

According to wikipedia, wikipedia is not a reliable source and doesn't make anyone sound like an expert when they quote it

I'd like to see what people think in regards to poetic theory, and I'd like people to start considering what they are doing when they write so they are not just taking stabs in the dark. I am fairly new to poetry myself and I would like to see some of the newer users educate themselves so we can all start writing real poetry and learn to appreciate this art that is often misunderstood. What forms work and why?

I can't believe nobody's thought of this before.

Oh yes, that's right, there's a whole forum for it.

I'd like people to start considering what they are doing when they write so they are not just taking stabs in the dark

And I'd like fewer generalisations about what people do and don't know.

I quote Wikipedia because I want people to know where my info is from. It is not the most reliable source so I do not want to give the illusion that I am presenting infallible data. I was hoping some newer members would have been inspired by the post and try to learn about formal poetry. Honestly I believe some think they can emulate hallmark cards or simply spew their emotions. Some very gifted individuals may be able to spew. I agree with billy reading good stuff can help a writer improve. I'm not masquerading as some exalted poetry guru I just want to see folks improve because that would make the site more interesting.

[rayheinrich]

... I'm not masquerading as some exalted poetry guru ...

While I would not, under any conceivable condition or credible contingency, ever, in any way whatsoever, veil myself in the veneer of a virtuoso versifier; I could, however, presume to proffer some particular (and possibly pertinent) pointers:

As is well know, snobby know-it-alls are prone to making disparaging remarks about the veracity of the information contained in the English Wikipedia because the common rabble is (not 'are') allowed to enter and edit most of its articles. (The German Wikipedia gets higher marks because its articles can only be entered by vetted editors and can only be displayed after a peer review. [Germans are SUCH persnickety fussbudgets.])

Here's one technique (of many) that exalted masquerading gurus use for getting around the "Wikipedia is not a reliable source and doesn't make anyone sound like an expert when they quote it" problem:

Step by step example using the "poetry foot" thing.


1. Find the correct technical terms to use: Do a Google search of Wiki (yes, that's right, Wiki) using: 'wiki poetry foot thing'.
2. Click on the first result: 'Foot (prosody) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
3. Read the first few lines of the article and pick out some likely technical terms to substitute for "poetry foot thing". Lets go with 'foot prosody metrical unit' and do another google search using them.
4. Now here's the best part: Go down the results item by item and look for the urls of universities. You might have to go through quite a few pages but referencing a university as a source is a good way to convince the rest of the rabble that you know what you are talking about and a great way of frustrating those snobby know-it-alls. I say 'frustrate' because the truth is you will never convince them that you know what you are talking about as any such thoughts are immediately suppressed by their massive egos. No, the objective of this technique is to convince the rest of the rabble to fart in their general direction.

Going down the list we find:

Guide to English prosody
www.uv.es/~tronch/stu/GuideEnglishProsody.html?

What a find on the first try! Though the university (highly accredited) is located in Spain and does not nave good name recognition in the U.S. (and probably Britain?), the very first lines in the guide contain these references:

B&P Brooks, Cleanth, and Robert Penn. Understanding Poetry. London: Holt, Rinehart & Wilson, 1968.

P&B Preminger, Alex, and T. V. F. Brogan. The New Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1993.

Shapiro, K. A Prosody Handbook. New York: Harper & Row 1965

Wales, Katie. A Dictionary of Stylistics. London: Longman, 1991.


I'd recommend using "The New Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics" as it contains the words "Princeton University".

So there you have it, the source hunt is over.

By the way:
The guide that follows the references, while not a tutorial, contains an excellent outline of English prosody and would be quite useful for anyone who already knows a bit about the subject.

[milo]

By the way:
The guide that follows the references, while not a tutorial, contains an excellent outline of English prosody and would be quite useful for anyone who already knows a bit about the subject.

[/font]

The sheer number of typos in it is distracting enough to be maddening.
Perhaps it is meant to be a paper on editing?

[rayheinrich]

The sheer number of typos in it is distracting enough to be maddening.
Perhaps it is meant to be a paper on editing?

Yes, you're SO right; though I still like its brevity (i.e. its college 'cheat sheet' style).
But hey, they're Spanish, and this is their 3rd or 4th language.

Here's one that's definitely NOT brief; but it has close to zero typos,
and is knowledgeable, cynical, sarcastic, humorous, and catty as well.
(All things I love.)

Arnaut & Karkur's ultimate on-line prosody resource
http://www.trobar.org/prosody/

Oops, I left out 'opinionated'. So, yes, it's definitely opinionated.

[Brownlie]

Thank you for the links. I'm going through some of them now. Anyone have limericks that they can share?

[rayheinrich]

Anyone have limericks that they can share?

I didn't write this one, but I like it:

Ants assemble at arms and advance
Against apes all absconding askance.
After aardvarks arrive
Antsy apes (all alive)
Assert, ‘Arrogant assholes are ants!’

I wonder what the predominant meter of limericks (to get this back on-topic
so that certain dark forces don't axe us) is. Catalectic amphibrachic????

Here's one of mine:

There was a young lady from France
Who put ants in a gentleman's pants
Said he, all askance, "you've put ants in my pants".
Said she, "see, I've taught you to dance"

For the one above: (stressed = / , unstressed = o )

o/oo/oo/
oo/oo/oo/
o/oo/oo/oo/
o//o/oo/

[billy]

it's okay it says [other forms] in the question, but masterfully done nonetheless

is iambic pentameter a form

is it possible to one with Z'x or Q's?

[Brownlie]

Goddamnit I knew someone would post a limerick and I would regret getting shit faced. From what I can tell much of a limerick is in anapest the rhymes should be gross and comical... Damn fire water it really dulls your brain. You seem to be missing some lines ray.

[Leanne]

it's okay it says [other forms] in the question, but masterfully done nonetheless

is iambic pentameter a form

Well no, it's not... but I wasn't going to point that out, because that would make me a snobby know-it-all.

Limericks are most commonly amphibrachic but as long as they're triple feet it doesn't really matter where the stresses start. Anapaests and dactyls work too. Limericks are the perfect form for commentary of any kind. I like them for sports.

A footballing legend called Ivor
Was known as a terrible diver
He said to the hooker
"Well sure you're a looker
But I would go down for a fiver."

[Brownlie]

You can be a snobby know it all as long as your for real I think the humor is great!

[abu nuwas]

You can be a snobby know it all as long as your for real I think the humor is great!

Too late, mate. You upset Matron way back.....

[Leanne]

Not at all... I was having a dig at the esteemed Mr Heinrich, who will no doubt feel obliged to dig back In Australia, CAT is short for Caterpillar Machinery, who famously make bulldozers and so forth... the perfect instrument for a hearty dig.

[milo]

it's okay it says [other forms] in the question, but masterfully done nonetheless

is iambic pentameter a form

Well no, it's not... but I wasn't going to point that out, because that would make me a snobby know-it-all.

Limericks are most commonly amphibrachic but as long as they're triple feet it doesn't really matter where the stresses start. Anapaests and dactyls work too. Limericks are the perfect form for commentary of any kind. I like them for sports.

A footballing legend called Ivor
Was known as a terrible diver
He said to the hooker
"Well sure you're a looker
But I would go down for a fiver."

at least there is no chance of this devolving into an endless round of hastily constructed limericks.

milo

When thinking of nothing for hours
just ponder upon yellow flowers
they're highly symbolic
of fancy free frolic
to say nothing of golden showers

[Leanne]

Hastily constructed? How very dare you, sirrah?

It's taken a moment of thinking
to write something worthy of inking
and make it completely
in amphibrach feetly
without it entirely stinking