Senryu?

[billy]

I would say you actually know quite a bit more than I do about Haiku and probably eastern poetry in general. The debate may come from the disparity between the original intention of Haiku (eastern) and our current usage(western)

yes and it's more ulta modern than modern the same way the modern sonnet is. example;
[quote]Another which is Wandering blames in flames By the same is below

Swerving pages, pages of forgotten memories entwined in the behinds,

Memories hacked into a slacking haggard cursed tree,

Memories flown and blown by the gentle stormy winds,

Memories nostalgia, memories disremembered memories of thee.

Over... a barrel I sit in the view of weeping skies,


Her tears gracing my cheeks, her fears sneaking and slinking in my cold blood

Like a bat out of hell the winds thunder my very heart to my defiled eyes,

Who will save me from this cursed blessing foundered on me in this mud?

With bated breath I will wait,

Batten down the hatches in the ashes of my curser, the begetter of this bedevils.

Cursed am I that my eyes can only see the beams in another’s fate,

Though I am a beggar belief I am the better devil.

Lain In the cradle of the saddle that I paddled,

I sail close to the breeze the gods would handle.

no one teaches people to write a sonnet this way untill they actually know the form, and even then most would shy away from doing such a thing, (i've even seen a six line sonnet done by a well known poet though i can't remember there fucking name )

The reason Ray sees metaphors in Kigo is because Ray knows there are metaphors in everything, but these are /reader/ metaphors as they are neither deliberate nor deducible so, for our purposes, Kigo are not metaphors.

this more or less coincides with what i said,

quote]The pivot is another matter and I know many authors do not even use a pivot but for those who do, it is a deliberate and deducible writer controlled comparison and in western poetry that means metaphor. One of the members on this site (fogglethorpe) does a good job of this. Look at these 2 that he posted to this site:

crow
on a streetlamp-
town crier

all night market-
a drifter and a dog
share a burrito

the pivot sets up a clear and deliberate comparison and in western poetry, that means metaphor.

i've read these before by the renowned haikust who also states
" if the poet calls it a haiku, it's a haiku"
the consensus is that the kireji or cutting word, (the pint where the trun begins is punctuation. the western version does what you see above, they use and elipse...i'll find a quote...okay it's wiki again

In English, since kireji have no direct equivalent, poets sometimes use punctuation such as a dash or ellipsis, or an implied break to create a juxtaposition intended to prompt the reader to reflect on the relationship between the two parts.

the haiku above when taken at face value have logic, both parts of each haiku do. they're straight forward

what Jane Reichhold does with them is imbues them with her own take on two crisp images


Now in haiku, the experts say we must cast aside this trusty tool. But wait a minute. Basho was Japan's most famous poet. Did he use metaphor?

Let us dare to rewrite his most famous

she has the fucking audacity to rewrite a basho poem

"on a bare branch
a crow settles
autumn dusk"

into:
the heavy way a crow settles on a bare branch is just like the way dusk comes in late autumn.


Given this, the reader's mind says yes, both are dark, autumn dusk is similar to heavy feathers that suddenly descend through the empty tree filling it with darkness. Yes, the black crow is the harbinger of death, the time of rest in nature and in life. If you've ever been near where a crow suddenly lands you've felt this fear folded under its wings, the surprise it is so black, so large, so threatening, so cold -- just as late autumn is.

she is doing exactly whats being discussed and agreed upon. she's inventing metaphor, she the reader is seeing more than what's written.

---

where is the mention heavey or how the crow settles.

seldom oare idioms or figures of speech used in haiku and because of this the cut is just a cut. it doesn't explain anything, it doesn't reveal anything. the reader can do those thing if they wish but if they do it's presumption, as presumptive as Jane Reichhold is with her rewriting of a basho poem