He's a Poet who Don't Know It.
#21
one problem deleting such a thing is the fact you delete all the effort and work other have took in giving their reply, we should be careful of deleting such threads less they decide not give any more (feedback)

you have lots of sound advice from what i can see so maybe do an edit and put in one of the feedback forums. personally i would never delete something like this if it were mine. from experience i know this can be a marker for how you've come in a couple of months time.



(06-18-2014, 09:12 AM)LorettaYoung Wrote:  Hi Trueenigma: Thank you so much for taking the time to point me to a lot of problems with this poem, laughing, and I do appreciate the sense of humor. I would have to change the title, fix a lot of syntax, attempt to be less abstact:
a) despite syntax would it help to say "with pride he seeks to stature win"b)would change guide his place to "secure his place"
c) the nets are for fishing for praise, acceptance, etc. d)"profound but lacking liberty: haven't you ever met an uptight genius. e)an actor of classical literature; the words seem to have become an integral part of his being.f) his self apart; is his life an act, are all his words an act, separating him from life. g) even aged he want to be debonair.f) naked phantom; the exposed reality of his talent.g) the poetry lies in his heart a secret from himself. h) he doesn't hear his own poetry when he speaks, and would fear it if he did, i) growing old changes everything in life "with all of everything to doubt; aging brings change and doubt. I know about the rim thing now. All in all I do understand your critiques, now the title problem, I'm thinking of deleting this. I have explained my points, and I know the poem should show; and me not explain. Thanks so much for your thoughs and time, really, Best Loretta
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#22
(06-18-2014, 09:59 AM)billy Wrote:  one problem deleting such a thing is the fact you delete all the effort and work other have took in giving their reply, we should be careful of deleting such threads less they decide not give any more (feedback)

you have lots of sound advice from what i can see so maybe do an edit and put in one of the feedback forums. personally i would never delete something like this if it were mine. from experience i know this can be a marker for how you've come in a couple of months time.



(06-18-2014, 09:12 AM)LorettaYoung Wrote:  Hi Trueenigma: Thank you so much for taking the time to point me to a lot of problems with this poem, laughing, and I do appreciate the sense of humor. I would have to change the title, fix a lot of syntax, attempt to be less abstact:
a) despite syntax would it help to say "with pride he seeks to stature win"b)would change guide his place to "secure his place"
c) the nets are for fishing for praise, acceptance, etc. d)"profound but lacking liberty: haven't you ever met an uptight genius. e)an actor of classical literature; the words seem to have become an integral part of his being.f) his self apart; is his life an act, are all his words an act, separating him from life. g) even aged he want to be debonair.f) naked phantom; the exposed reality of his talent.g) the poetry lies in his heart a secret from himself. h) he doesn't hear his own poetry when he speaks, and would fear it if he did, i) growing old changes everything in life "with all of everything to doubt; aging brings change and doubt. I know about the rim thing now. All in all I do understand your critiques, now the title problem, I'm thinking of deleting this. I have explained my points, and I know the poem should show; and me not explain. Thanks so much for your thoughs and time, really, Best Loretta

Hi billy: yes, I see your point, it would be selfish to delete (maybe I can hide);laughing. You suggest another site for more punishment, I'm joking really; I wouldn't know how or where to put it. The input of critique has been really enlightening and helpful. I made the easy changes on the Miscellaneous site. Thanks billy, best Loretta

(06-18-2014, 10:04 AM)LorettaYoung Wrote:  
(06-18-2014, 09:59 AM)billy Wrote:  one problem deleting such a thing is the fact you delete all the effort and work other have took in giving their reply, we should be careful of deleting such threads less they decide not give any more (feedback)

you have lots of sound advice from what i can see so maybe do an edit and put in one of the feedback forums. personally i would never delete something like this if it were mine. from experience i know this can be a marker for how you've come in a couple of months time.



(06-18-2014, 09:12 AM)LorettaYoung Wrote:  Hi Trueenigma: Thank you so much for taking the time to point me to a lot of problems with this poem, laughing, and I do appreciate the sense of humor. I would have to change the title, fix a lot of syntax, attempt to be less abstact:
a) despite syntax would it help to say "with pride he seeks to stature win"b)would change guide his place to "secure his place"
c) the nets are for fishing for praise, acceptance, etc. d)"profound but lacking liberty: haven't you ever met an uptight genius. e)an actor of classical literature; the words seem to have become an integral part of his being.f) his self apart; is his life an act, are all his words an act, separating him from life. g) even aged he want to be debonair.f) naked phantom; the exposed reality of his talent.g) the poetry lies in his heart a secret from himself. h) he doesn't hear his own poetry when he speaks, and would fear it if he did, i) growing old changes everything in life "with all of everything to doubt; aging brings change and doubt. I know about the rim thing now. All in all I do understand your critiques, now the title problem, I'm thinking of deleting this. I have explained my points, and I know the poem should show; and me not explain. Thanks so much for your thoughs and time, really, Best Loretta

Hi billy: yes, I see your point, it would be selfish to delete (maybe I can hide);laughing. You suggest another site for more punishment, I'm joking really; I wouldn't know how or where to put it. The input of critique has been really enlightening and helpful. I made the easy changes on the Miscellaneous site. Thanks billy, best Loretta
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#23
i meant do an edit and repost in one of our own feedback forums,
the he's a poet line, often when non poets say something that rhymes, some one will pipe up with

"he's a poet and he doesn't know it"

it may be more of an english thing as most people have used the phrase i the uk.

but back to the poem; stick with it take a good look at waht people have said and post an edit in the novice or mild forum we have. as for hiding...be bloody proud that you're trying to improve, our less than great poems are mere stepping stones to better ones. cherish where you came from :J:
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#24
(06-18-2014, 10:17 AM)billy Wrote:  i meant do an edit and repost in one of our own feedback forums,
the he's a poet line, often when non poets say something that rhymes, some one will pipe up with

"he's a poet and he doesn't know it"

it may be more of an english thing as most people have used the phrase i the uk.

but back to the poem; stick with it take a good look at waht people have said and post an edit in the novice or mild forum we have. as for hiding...be bloody proud that you're trying to improve, our less than great poems are mere stepping stones to better ones. cherish where you came from :J:
Reply
#25
Hello, Loretta I definitely don't think you should delete this poem, but I prefer poems that are less abstract. As for the rhyme scheme an AA rhyme scheme is generally regarded as too sing songy, a lot of poets switched to blank verse to lose this quality, or something like that. You can compare Marvell to Milton and see that Marvell has an amazing sound quality, but you can become distracted by the rhyming and the verse is rendered a little less serious. Now, I am by no means an expert, but there are some experts on this site. However, Billy usually has the most common sense. Now here's what they've posted on the serious critique forums which I thought was quite useful.

This is not a definitive guide, just something I've devised over the years and found to work. Using the reverse weight to that of a debate:

Method: The way the work is presented. Structure and language especially.
Manner: How it's presented. Imagery, sonics, metaphor.
Matter: WHAT is being said, the argument/examples/information


Method: Does the form of the poem support the content?
This is generally more rigid for structured poetry than freeverse. For example, if someone writes in meter there are standard measures to decide whether it's been done properly. Similarly with cinquains, rictameters and other set forms. There's no such requirement for free verse. For either, though:

-- Look at line breaks, line lengths and punctuation. Are these carefully placed or arbitrary? Do they provide emphasis? Do they contribute to mood?

-- Is the language of the poem suitable? Does the tone convey the appropriate mood? Look at things like vernacular, archaisms, scientific discourse. Do these "mesh"? If not, does the language choice provide contrast/juxtapositions/irony or is it simply "wrong"?

-- Does the poem appear fluid or does it seem forced? Is the language stilted and awkward? Do inversions of syntax and other grammatical oddities contribute to the piece or detract from it? Rhyme will come into this as well -- any rhymes should seem natural and not overstated or obvious.

Manner: How "poetic" is the poem?

-- Is the phrasing interesting and original?

-- Are all metaphors etc clearly drawn and continued, or are they seemingly random and overblown?

-- Does the imagery/symbolism make sense or does it seem too personal/closed?

-- Do individual sounds/words enhance the poem? For example, lyric poetry is better served with softer, rounder sounds and sibilants. Battle poems -- hard sharp sounds. Consider how the sounds contribute to the speed of the poem. This ties in closely with the method but also very strongly supports the "imagery" side.

Matter: What is being said?

-- Is the topic of the poem interesting? Bearing in mind that any topic may be interesting or dull depending on the way it's presented -- so, is the poet finding that required hook?

-- Is it logically presented? This will obviously not come into play in certain kinds of poetry (surrealism defies logic deliberately, for example). Further to this, though, consider whether the poem keep the reader's interest or is a bunch of non sequiturs that are unlinked by any devices.


Remember: Whether you LIKE the poem is the very last thing you should consider if you wish to remain objective.

A critique without a rationale is no critique at all, it is just an uninformed opinion.

Here is a very brief list of some catchall categories one can use that they may find helpful if they have difficulty trying to put into words what they want to convey:

It (this word, this phrase) is disruptive to the reading (in other words I had to pause to figure out what it meant)
It (usually a phrase) was unclear (I could not extract any meaning from it)
Did not appear germane (seemed to have nothing to do with the the rest of the poem).
Forced cleverness (seemed more about using clever metaphors, or phrases, than saying something vital about the topic)
The format used did not seem the best for the topic (using iambic tetrameter with rhyming couplets for a serious topic)
Lack of clarity or confusion caused by poor grammar/tense/ punctuation.
Spelling errors.
Unintentional or unnecessary ambiguity.
Overly vague (not giving enough information for the reader to make sense of the poem)
Excesses use of obscure, and undocumented allusions.
Use of archaic or rarely used words when more common words would do just as well.
Allowing the form to be detrimental to the content through such things as forced rhymes, or phrasing/syntax that has nothing to do with the poem, or is out of character.
Trite or cliche phrasing (unless part of the character's way of speaking, or for some other intended purpose to illustrate a point).


Just a start but some may find these useful.

*With thanks to Erthona

Basic Meter

The metric poetic line is broken up into "feet", which essentially are measures of meter. Feet are determined by syllables, not by word length. Pentameter has five feet per line, tetrameter has four, hexameter has six... you get the picture. So "iambic pentameter" has five feet, all of which are iambic. The feet can vary in makeup, depending on the type of meter chosen. Here are some of the basic kinds (this is not an exhaustive list, and people often make up their own, but here you go).

Iambic: an iamb is made up of two syllables where the stress (or accent) is placed on the second syllable.

eg. "She CANnot FADE, though THOU hast NOT thy BLISS,
For EVer WILT thou LOVE, and SHE be FAIR!" (Keats, Ode on a Grecian Urn".

Counting the accented (strongly stressed) syllables, you come up with five beats, hence these lines are in iambic pentameter, a meter which always starts a line on a soft stress and ends on a hard. Iambic meter gives a kind of sing-song, often soothing rhythm which is why it's so often used for love poetry.

Trochaic: A trochee is essentially the opposite of an iamb -- two syllables, HARD soft. Trochees give a strong beat, often like an exclamation, and are commonly employed in nursery rhymes because they make quite an impression.

eg. "SANta CLAUS you FAT old GIT".

If you look at Shakespeare's sonnets, you'll find that the Bard often slipped a trochee into the first line to make an impact, which is just what it does.

Dactylic: Dactyls are three-syllable feet, HARD soft soft. DUM diddy... I think of it as a kind of blues beat.

eg. "VICtory LIVES in the HEART of the CELT,
GIFTed by BLOODstains that FLOW on through YEARS"

The dactylic line will often end on the strong stress, leaving a pause as you would find at the end of a song lyric (this is called a "truncated dactyl").

Anapestic: An anapest is another three-syllable foot, soft soft HARD -- da da DUM. Anapests give a galloping feel to a line and are often used to describe action.

eg. "And the SHEEN of their SPEARS was like STARS on the SEA,
When the BLUE wave rolls NIGHTly on DEEP GaliLEE" (Byron, The Destruction of Sennacherib)

Meters can be mixed up and experimented with to strengthen a poem sonically. They needn't be employed only in rhyming poetry. Sound is important to consider in most poems -- they are, generally speaking, supposed to be read aloud.

So, hopefully that helps. Content is another story, what are we trying to capture with poetry? In my opinion, pretensions (if you have any) need to be questioned. Now that being said, I'm not really an expert in poetry. Good luck. Thumbsup
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#26
With thanks to Brownlie and Erthona: that I find myself in a college class of poetry; it was very kind, to me a kindred spirit loves the art and to see it passed on. If I were in a classroom I would have innumerable questions. I would want to know more about the concrete and abstract, and about cliche; there is much to learn; it's takes a desk and concentration, solitude. I will hope to learn why and what kind of poet I would wish for. I thank you so much, everyone has been so sharing, best Loretta

(06-18-2014, 02:54 AM)Brownlie Wrote:  
(06-18-2014, 12:50 AM)LorettaYoung Wrote:  He's a Poet Who Don't Know It (Free-ranging allowed, creative comments appreciated)

He's a poet who don't know it; -- I would avoid using a cliché for the title and first line. I think you can get away with bad grammar if you're imitating a way some people speak, but I'm not so sure here.
it's not of relevance to him,
his pride he thinks to stature win. --To stature win is awkward. I would never cheat to achieve meter. Always try and make it sound natural.
He seeks a mentor to guide his place
to please his clique, promote his face. -- Whenever you insert A rhyme scheme of AA it will be harder for people to take your work seriously.
His mind profound but lacking liberty, -- You seem to have omitted some crucial words that would hold up the sentence structure.

possessed to win applause and flattery.
On stage he plied the written words of art, -- written words of art is incredibly abstract, and thus somewhat meaningless. The more specific the more the reader knows what's going on.

divided from his self part; a broken heart
that questions, is he now upon the stage,
or words and heart in life engaged?

For he's a poet who don't know it.
He seeks to best the common place.
His aging ass would like to grace
a comfy padded rocking chair;
with, what else, poetic flair.
For one with practiced wits as he
who casts his nets with subtlety
and care; he tires then ascends the stair
and breathless falls upon a chair;
with age, though aspirations debonair. -- Debonair sounds incredibly forced, because you use simple language and then this pops up out of the blue. Plus, it is kind of a strange word. At least, that's how I see it.

Should he grasp the naked phantom there
and be the poet, and in his glory
smile to know it?

Still, it's buried in his heart apart,
and though it sings within his head;
he has no ear to hear, but fears to know it.
Yet, he is on fire within, of life's desires;
but seeking safety he conspires
to trample out those restless fires.
With all of everything, his age to doubt,
the decades growing thin without;
despite what dims the outer rim,
his secret treasure hides within, and sadly
still, he's a poet who don't know it.

Ok I like you and left you some notes. I'd like to see something a little more real from you, but people do like different things.

Hi Brownlie: I conceived the ungrammatical title as a pun to his true abilities in language which should be, I hope, explained later. I can't run away from a cliche all the time. Thanks again, Best Loretta

(06-18-2014, 03:15 AM)tectak Wrote:  
(06-18-2014, 12:50 AM)LorettaYoung Wrote:  He's a Poet Who Don't Know It (Free-ranging allowed, creative comments appreciated)

He's a poet who don't know it; Have you been reading my crits? Is this a Dylan cliche?Smile
it's not of relevance to him, You can and should end this sentence here. Why cantilever words into unstable structures when natural law says that you have made a single point?
his pride he thinks to stature win. A sentence; and a good one, if inverted it is. Give it credit.
He seeks a mentor to guide his place
to please his clique, promote his face. Hang on. How does one guide a place? You are enraptured with the poetic amour. Calm down and make sense. He seeks a mentor to secure/locate/define/ assert/ fix...I could go on but I would never say "guide"Smile
His mind profound but lacking liberty, but me no buts. "and" or "though" would be unarguable. You imply that profundity somehow has an accepted affinity with libertarian thought. I don't.
possessed to win applause and flattery. Wot possesses?
On stage he plied the written words of art,
divided from his self part; a broken heart Wot is a self part?
that questions, is he now upon the stage,
or words and heart in life engaged? Dangerously close to gobbledygook. Needs clarity of meaning as this is not supposed to be obscure by intent.

For he's a poet who don't know it.
He seeks to best the common place. How does one best a place? Sorry. I am a pedant.
His aging ass would like to grace
a comfy padded rocking chair;
with, what else, poetic flair. Excellent
For one with practiced wits as he
who casts his nets with subtlety
and care; he tires then ascends the stair
and breathless falls upon a chair; Excellent again
with age, though aspirations debonair. Not excellent
Should he grasp the naked phantom there
and be the poet, and in his glory
smile to know it? Neither excellent nor crap. I don't get it.Should I?

Still, it's buried in his heart apart, AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH! Wot is "it"? You do not say. Should I guess? OK. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No. It sings...is it Kylie Minogue? I give up. Wot is it?
and though it sings within his head;
he has no ear to hear, but fears to know it. OK. Best I don't know. It is too frightening. It isn't Kylie, is it?
Yet, he is on fire within, of life's desires;
but seeking safety he conspires
to trample out those restless fires. The fire word is spreading[/b
With all of everything, his age to doubt,
the decades growing thin without;[b] Forced rhyme. You can't fool meSmile

despite what dims the outer rim, Loretta, I need to talk to you about rims. In private. It's for your own good.You are a nice lady.
his secret treasure hides within, and sadly
still, he's a poet who don't know it.

Well, unless this piece is about Dylan Dementia I have no idea of the point but I think it may be about me. Or Dale. Or Milo.Or Billy. Or..or....
Best,
tectak( I can spell what)

Still laughing; what a wonderful sense of humor. Loretta

(06-18-2014, 05:48 AM)tectak Wrote:  
(06-18-2014, 03:44 AM)LorettaYoung Wrote:  
(06-18-2014, 03:15 AM)tectak Wrote:  Well, unless this piece is about Dylan Dementia I have no idea of the point but I think it may be about me. Or Dale. Or Milo.Or Billy. Or..or....
Best,
tectak( I can spell what)


Hi Tectak: I answered you line by line after your critiques in regular type so you can see it; I might add, laughing, all the while. Thanks so much; so much good advice; are my explanations understandable. Now, I must know about rims? Best, Loretta

(06-18-2014, 02:54 AM)Brownlie Wrote:  Ok I like you and left you some notes. I'd like to see something a little more real from you, but people do like different things.

Hi Brownlie: Thanks for reading and commenting; and time. I never, ever heard the word "he's a poet but don't know it" before. Stature win; I agree; somewhat awkard, I will think it out and try to make it better. I felt like that line about the stage would give away that he is an actor. Debonair is a word I worked for; a contrast to his age and reflecting his desire for status. Thanks again, Best Loretta

(06-18-2014, 02:54 AM)Brownlie Wrote:  Ok I like you and left you some notes. I'd like to see something a little more real from you, but people do like different things.

PS Brownlie: I didn't understand what you meant about he AA Rhyme. I thought The Picture of His Face was fairly real?

"l shall be free
no.10" by Bob Dylan. Plagiarist with plausible denial Hysterical
Best,
tectak

tectak: OK, change of title, "spit spot" Loretta

(06-18-2014, 07:02 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  
(06-18-2014, 06:53 AM)LorettaYoung Wrote:  
(06-18-2014, 06:42 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  true enough - the longer the foot, the looser the iamb.

Hi Dale: go know, no he doesn' t think he's a poet and wouldn't care if he was; due to his busy and more relevant to him, his social stature. Can you please tell me what you mean by the longer the foot, the looser the iamb?
Do I really need a new title now; just because of Longfellow's feet? Thanks Dale (at least it's not Dylan). Oh gosh, the whole cliche seems backwards to me; wouldn't a common phrase of speech be an incentive for a reader? I've seen the word cliche so much it's a cliche! Thanks for the head's up, new title; REALLY? Best Loreta


It wasn't dale. it was me. just a dumb iamb joke. sorry, I thought you said free ranging was aloud.

(06-18-2014, 07:02 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  
(06-18-2014, 06:53 AM)LorettaYoung Wrote:  
(06-18-2014, 06:42 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  true enough - the longer the foot, the looser the iamb.

Hi Dale: go know, no he doesn' t think he's a poet and wouldn't care if he was; due to his busy and more relevant to him, his social stature. Can you please tell me what you mean by the longer the foot, the looser the iamb?
Do I really need a new title now; just because of Longfellow's feet? Thanks Dale (at least it's not Dylan). Oh gosh, the whole cliche seems backwards to me; wouldn't a common phrase of speech be an incentive for a reader? I've seen the word cliche so much it's a cliche! Thanks for the head's up, new title; REALLY? Best Loreta


It wasn't dale. it was me. just a dumb iamb joke. sorry, I thought you said free ranging was aloud.

Hi Trueenigma: yes, of course free ranging, that's the best, just fooling around as well. Best Loretta
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#27
(06-18-2014, 09:39 AM)ellajam Wrote:  Hi, Loretta, please don't delete anything, it is a very interesting thread.

Others have dealt with the technically weak parts that could be worked on if you choose to.

I read it as someone who has the potential for a more creative life than he allows himself. I particularly liked the middle verse.

And I have to put my 2 cents in. When we were kids whenever we accidentally rhymed we'd say "I'm a poet and I didn't even know it." Smile

Marcella: love you, thanks Loretta
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