Misanthropy

[SirBrendan]

Misanthropy Edit 1

There was a time I was once, he, a child.
Stumped and short limbs could not keep pace to eyes
wide with life , thoughtlessly thoughtful and wild;
running and clutching a world since demised.

Memories though, like soft sucker candies
stick to the roof of my mind and disjoint
leaving but rough-shod raw sores rubbed itchy.
He was the one who appreciated the true point.

When I was once he, a child I'd a Mother who loved
me very much and so doted a great sum of time
and her patience to the goal of teaching me above
all that I must always learn from the nursed subtle rhymes.

And so began a habit I have since, myself, lost.
Whenever words appeared strange and unknown
it was required of him: with the dictionary, floss
knowledge's cavities-- that new-born tongue might be honed.

Then he, a child, would at once further press
daily to make use of this newly learned
word, just to taste for his buds to caress.
Loved them all, words, and the way that he heard.

That was until a single, awful word
meaning to hate all persons in the world.
Read it in Dickens he did, but he slurred
and stuttered as winters tale unfurled.

He didn't get it, how could someone hate
him if never had they once talked to him.
Child, he was, scrubbing the filth off his plate
like the fool thinks he is singing a hymn

I get the word; I am misanthropy.
I the Dickensian fall that lacked an ascent.
I the forewarned, the rotten, sugar me.
I who ate him; he a child; he who once was innocent.

Misanthropy

There was a time I was once, he, a child:
stumped and short limbs could not keep pace to eyes
wide with life ,
thoughtlessly thoughtful and wild;
running and clutching a world since demised.

Memories though, like soft sucker candies
stick to the roof of my mind and disjoint
leaving but rough-shod raw sores rubbed itchy.
He was the one who appreciated the true point.

When I was once he, a child I'd a Mother who loved
me very much and so doted a great sum of time
and her patience to the goal of teaching me above
all that I must always learn from the nursed subtle rhymes.

And so began a habit I have since, myself, lost.
Whenever words appeared strange and unknown
it was required of him: with the dictionary, floss
knowledge's cavities, that new-born tongue might be honed.

Then he, a child, would at once further press
daily to make use of this newly learned
word; just to taste for his buds to caress.
Loved them all, words, and the way that he heard

That was until a single, awful word:
meaning to hate all persons in the world.
Read it in Dickens he did, but he slurred
and stuttered as winters tale unfurled.

He didn't get it, how could someone hate
him if never had they once talked to him.
Child, he was, scrubbing the filth off his plate
like the fool thinks he is singing a hymn

I get the word; I am misanthropy
I the Dickensian fall that lacked an ascent
I the forewarned, the rotten, sugar me
I who ate him; he a child; he who once was innocent

[tectak]

Misanthropy

There was a time I was once, he, a child:
stumped and short limbs could not keep pace to eyes
wide with life ,
thoughtlessly thoughtful and wild;
running and clutching a world since demised.

Memories though, like soft sucker candies
stick to the roof of my mind and disjoint
leaving but rough-shod raw sores rubbed itchy.
He was the one who appreciated the true point.

When I was once he, a child I'd a Mother who loved
me very much and so doted a great sum of time
and her patience to the goal of teaching me above
all that I must always learn from the nursed subtle rhymes.

And so began a habit I have since, myself, lost.
Whenever words appeared strange and unknown
it was required of him: with the dictionary, floss
knowledge's cavities, that new-born tongue might be honed.

Then he, a child, would at once further press
daily to make use of this newly learned
word; just to taste for his buds to caress.
Loved them all, words, and the way that he heard

That was until a single, awful word:
meaning to hate all persons in the world.
Read it in Dickens he did, but he slurred
and stuttered as winters tale unfurled.

He didn't get it, how could someone hate
him if never had they once talked to him.
Child, he was, scrubbing the filth off his plate
like the fool thinks he is singing a hymn

I get the word; I am misanthropy
I the Dickensian fall that lacked an ascent
I the forewarned, the rotten, sugar me
I who ate him; he a child; he who once was innocent

[B]Hi sirb,
Look, before I wade in to this let me ask a favour of you. PLEASE read this effort OUT LOUD and make all the changes to it that appear to be necessary as a result of your hasty posting. The syntax throughout is tortuous....sometimes it seems that you are playing Tetris with the words.
Just read what you wrote in S1:

There was a time I was once, he, a child: stumped and short limbs could not keep pace to eyes wide with life , thoughtlessly thoughtful and wild; running and clutching a world since demised.

Do not let this untidy scripting become acceptable to yourself. Do the work BEFORE posting...that's where the fun is.

Best,
tectak

[SirBrendan]

I have read aloud the poem at least a hundred times and then some, so it's unnecessary to imply I just left my wet garbage at your door. Although I generally appreciate your candour (and I'd appreciate you to continue to give honest feedback), a facecheck out of the gate isn't all too pleasant. The syntax was a deliberate choice for both the metre and impression I wanted for the reading--clearly not an impression that sat well with you. I may simply lack the understanding, but I genuinely don't see any actual syntax-errors in the example stanza.

I'll make some punctuation revisions to try to clear up any untidiness.

[tectak]

I have read aloud the poem at least a hundred times and then some, so it's unnecessary to imply I just left my wet garbage at your door. Although I generally appreciate your candour (and I'd appreciate you to continue to give honest feedback), a facecheck out of the gate isn't all too pleasant. The syntax was a deliberate choice for both the metre and impression I wanted for the reading--clearly not an impression that sat well with you. I may simply lack the understanding, but I genuinely don't see any actual syntax-errors in the example stanza.

I'll make some punctuation revisions to try to clear up any untidiness.

Sirb,
You cannot choose syntax...that is like saying you will choose a speed for light. What meter? Your grammar is all over the place in this piece. Some of the lines are unworthy of you. They only make sense by extrapolation...that is to say by acceptance of a meaning beyond what you write.

You excuse yourself thus-wise:
"I'll make some punctuation revisions to try to clear up any untidiness"??????
You should do that BEFORE posting. Read the FIRST FORUM RULE!

Now, I am sorry if what I am about to say this offends you but this is not about you. It is about the POEM:

When I was once he, a child I'd a Mother who loved me very much and so doted a great sum of time and her patience to the goal of teaching me above all that I must always learn from the nursed subtle rhymes.

If I had read this piece a hundred times I would be sticking pins in my eyes by now.. What you have written here offends me so I guess that's us all square.
Nothing retracted. This is in SERIOUS WORKSHOPPING but I will happily move it to Mild if you feel you would benefit from less er..critical crit! Your call.
Best,
tectak

[SirBrendan]

Syntax refers to the placement of words to form proper sentence structure in the English language. There are however varied but equally acceptable sentence structures, such as inverted vs standard. An example would be, " Mourn them do not. Miss them do not... The shadow of greed, that is.” If there is a legitimate syntax error (rather than simply not using standard) then highlight it or explain it. That's the entire point of the forum, which you seem to have missed.

I have worked very hard to learn how to compose a serious poem with all the new things I've learned, which is why I politely acknowledged your 'critique' and moved on rather than have my piece derailed by nonsense. I believe it's a solid piece that would benefit from serious oversight and guidance, which is why I posted it here. I have no issue being told that pieces of the poem don't work, or that it doesn't effectively communicate a message or theme. That's not what you did. What you did was be a smug twat. Nothing retracted. This is SERIOUS WORKSHOPPING, not big boy at the sandbox thrusts his groin.

[Todd]

Hi Brendan,

Let me give you some comments below:

Misanthropy Edit 1[b]--I think the title gives to much away. If the word is supposed to have an epiphany quality to it, you should probably rethink the title.
[/b]
There was a time I was once, he, a child.--"There was a time seems like filler as we were all once children. I see what you're doing with the "he" and the "I" trying to state there was a marked difference between who you were and who you are now. I think what your really trying to deal with is the loss of childlike innocence. In either event, I think the construction makes the poem clunky. It would be much better with "Once I was a child". I think as a global statement, I would need to see a lot of elements like this cleaned up before I could deal with the content well.
Stumped and short limbs could not keep pace to eyes--Passive voice isn't the best choice here. The line would likely improve by leading with a "with", also possible replace the "to" with another "with"
wide with life , thoughtlessly thoughtful and wild;--possibly a "too" before wide
running and clutching a world since demised.--demised feels odd here. It feels like you want despised. Running and clutching feels like it needs to be replaced by one better word if you can find it.

Memories though, like soft sucker candies--cut the though
stick to the roof of my mind and disjoint--cut and disjoint
leaving but rough-shod raw sores rubbed itchy.--too many modifiers here. Possibly: "leaving raw sores rubbed itchy"
He was the one who appreciated the true point.--This he/I thing again would probably be better served by "it was then I appreciated" The true point feels too vague to me. It robs the image you're building of power. So far this candy thing is the best thing in the poem and might be what I would rewrite around. Just thinking out loud.

When I was once he, a child I'd a Mother who loved
me very much and so doted a great sum of time--This should be condensed savagely. This feels too prosey at the moment. Also, focus on the parts that are slightly different from everyone's common experience. Unless the idea is, "Like you, I had a mother..." or some such
and her patience to the goal of teaching me above--imagery needed not statements. Show visually what she did and let it stand for the entire characteristic
all that I must always learn from the nursed subtle rhymes.--Nursery "rhymes" or Nursed rhymes at the breast...just wondering here

And so began a habit I have since, myself, lost.--condense please, too wordy
Whenever words appeared strange and unknown
it was required of him: with the dictionary, floss
knowledge's cavities-- that new-born tongue might be honed.--This all needs to be condensed, in my opinion

Then he, a child, would at once further press
daily to make use of this newly learned
word, just to taste for his buds to caress.
Loved them all, words, and the way that he heard.--again, if you play upon memories as candy. You can build words as tastes. He learned "xxx" which tasted of (I don't know) chocolate, or "xxx" which was sunlight. Then build the poem into what misanthropy tasted like. Fully just thoughts. I'm just trying to play off the word palate idea you hint at

That was until a single, awful word--In that tone, it would be a "bitter" word
meaning to hate all persons in the world.
Read it in Dickens he did, but he slurred
and stuttered as winters tale unfurled.--again I've probably given enough to show you another possible direction

He didn't get it, how could someone hate
him if never had they once talked to him.
Child, he was, scrubbing the filth off his plate
like the fool thinks he is singing a hymn

I get the word; I am misanthropy.
I the Dickensian fall that lacked an ascent.
I the forewarned, the rotten, sugar me.
I who ate him; he a child; he who once was innocent.

I'm going to leave it at that Brendan. It's the best I've got at the moment. I hope it helps, if it doesn't than please disregard.

Best,

Todd

[tectak]

Syntax refers to the placement of words to form proper sentence structure in the English language. There are however varied but equally acceptable sentence structures, such as inverted vs standard. An example would be, " Mourn them do not. Miss them do not... The shadow of greed, that is.” If there is a legitimate syntax error (rather than simply not using standard) then highlight it or explain it. That's the entire point of the forum, which you seem to have missed.

I have worked very hard to learn how to compose a serious poem with all the new things I've learned, which is why I politely acknowledged your 'critique' and moved on rather than have my piece derailed by nonsense. I believe it's a solid piece that would benefit from serious oversight and guidance, which is why I posted it here. I have no issue being told that pieces of the poem don't work, or that it doesn't effectively communicate a message or theme. That's not what you did. What you did was be a smug twat. Nothing retracted. This is SERIOUS WORKSHOPPING, not big boy at the sandbox thrusts his groin.

So your answer is...?

Please be advised that ad hominem comments, particularly when used to insult other members or crits, will not be tolerated. Please treat this as an off the record warning. I cannot confirm that other mods will be as tolerant.
mod

[Leanne]

I'm sorry, I find this very difficult to read as the tortured syntax seems to serve no purpose. I can't latch on to any meter at all, neither stress-timed nor syllabic. To me, this is a failure of form -- that has nothing to do with what you're trying to say, which may well be incredibly profound, I just can't tell.

This is NOT to say that it can't be salvaged, but the vessel is far too cramped for what it's trying to hold.

[SirBrendan]

Thank you very much Todd for your critique. It seems I have to work a lot harder before this piece is ready and it is certainly not as solid as I thought it was.

I thought the poem conformed to dactylic trimetre/quadrametre but when two different poets who make consistent use of metre don't hear it, I've clearly not developed the ability to hear it well. I'm going to do a tremendous overhaul for the next few days to see if I can make it better. I worry that I might just not be able to hear metre; I've studied it extensively since arriving, so I can't help but be horrified that it's not there.

To me it reads, with stress bolded,

Misanthropy Edit 1

There was a time I was once, he, a child.
Stumped and short limbs could not keep pace to eyes
wide with life , thoughtlessly thoughtful and wild;
running and clutching a world since demised.

Memories though, like soft sucker candies
stick to the roof of my mind and disjoint
leaving but rough-shod raw sores rubbed itchy.
He was the one who appreciated the true point.

When I was once he, a child I'd a Mother who loved
me very much and so doted a great sum of time
and her patience to the goal of teaching me above
all that I must always learn from the nursed subtle rhymes.

etc,...

Obviously, as it stands, the poem just isn't very good, or as Tectak stated, may be outright offensively bad. If I don't even understand a key compenent to metre though, I don't hold much chance in fixing it. Please, could someone show me where I've gone wrong here.

(The syntax will obviously be revised. I thought it added a cool narrative effect-- it did not:p)

[Todd]

It takes time to train yourself to hear meter. I'm still working on it. I will be working on it years from now. Just keep at it.

[billy]

i'll reply to your post (reply) in a nice way because it's obvious you genuinely want to improve.

Syntax refers to the placement of words to form proper sentence structure in the English language. There are however varied but equally acceptable sentence structures, such as inverted vs standard. An example would be, " Mourn them do not. Miss them do not...

I'd a Mother who loved [I'd] means i did. but that's not really a syntax problem;
the whole poem in general is. most, or some people think syntax is just about inverted text, while your syntax may not be inverted. it is bad syntax in that it doesn't follow good sentence structure. (i have taken enjambment into account and not include it as part of the syntax)

Then he, a child, would at once further press
daily to make use of this newly learned
word; just to taste for his buds to caress.
Loved them all, words, and the way that he heard

Then he, a child, would at once further press daily to make use of this newly learned word; just to taste for his buds to caress. Loved them all, words, and the way that he heard

the rearrangement makes it easier to see a few of the syntactical problems. it has nothing to do with punctuation, though punctuation does play a grammatical part of a sentence. the main problem is the word placement and choices. [once further press daily] is bad syntax. would press daily would be more true to good syntax. the problem is [just to taste for his buds to caress.] good syntax would state; for his taste buds to caress
then you begin the next sentence with [Loved them all, words, and the way that he heard] he loved all the words he heard

in poetry we're able to embellish words, thoughts and ideas through poetic device, ie, simile, metaphor and a host of other flowery shit. while we're also allowed to butcher the english language, (in poetry) we should only do it if it works. sticking to a meter should play no part in excusing bad syntax.

The shadow of greed, that is.” If there is a legitimate syntax error (rather than simply not using standard) then highlight it or explain it. That's the entire point of the forum, which you seem to have missed.

the point of the forum is to help poets become better poets. saying. I think the poem is full of bad syntax and that you should really be more competent before posting in the serious forum is valid. it's why we have three forums. it's a give in workshops that only poetry that need a final polish be posted here (the thing is, many of us do the same as you and often get told the same thing)

I have worked very hard to learn how to compose a serious poem with all the new things I've learned, which is why I politely acknowledged your 'critique' and moved on rather than have my piece derailed by nonsense.

what you're doing is comparing your POV with someone elses POV. what you see isn't what the reader sees.

I believe it's a solid piece that would benefit from serious oversight and guidance, which is why I posted it here. I have no issue being told that pieces of the poem don't work, or that it doesn't effectively communicate a message or theme. [/quote
]my POV isn't that it's a solid piece, though it would benefit from serious oversight, i think Tom's feedback was a serious bit of oversight (oversight i'd be thankful for and have been many time with my own poetry)


[quote]That's not what you did. What you did was be a smug twat. Nothing retracted. This is SERIOUS WORKSHOPPING, not big boy at the sandbox thrusts his groin.

smugs okay if it's honest and truthful without the intent of nasty. to this i say, do what all poets must do, grow a pair. take feedback on the chin and use it to become a better poet, even smug feedback if it's true.
tom has no groin to thrust, his hobby is mushrooms but if he did have one he'd be allowed to thrust it the way everyone can thrust it if they're trying to help by giving feedback.

[tectak]

Thank you very much Todd for your critique. It seems I have to work a lot harder before this piece is ready and it is certainly not as solid as I thought it was.

I thought the poem conformed to dactylic trimetre/quadrametre but when two different poets who make consistent use of metre don't hear it, I've clearly not developed the ability to hear it well. I'm going to do a tremendous overhaul for the next few days to see if I can make it better. I worry that I might just not be able to hear metre; I've studied it extensively since arriving, so I can't help but be horrified that it's not there.

To me it reads, with stress bolded,

Misanthropy Edit 1

There was a time I was once, he, a child.
Stumped and short limbs could not keep pace to eyes
wide with life , thoughtlessly thoughtful and wild;
running and clutching a world since demised.

Memories though, like soft sucker candies
stick to the roof of my mind and disjoint
leaving but rough-shod raw sores rubbed itchy.
He was the one who appreciated the true point.

When I was once he, a child I'd a Mother who loved
me very much and so doted a great sum of time
and her patience to the goal of teaching me above
all that I must always learn from the nursed subtle rhymes.

etc,...

Obviously, as it stands, the poem just isn't very good, or as Tectak stated, may be outright offensively bad. If I don't even understand a key compenent to metre though, I don't hold much chance in fixing it. Please, could someone show me where I've gone wrong here.

(The syntax will obviously be revised. I thought it added a cool narrative effect-- it did not:p)

OK.Lets find a way of showing where it goes wrong. How to put right later.
Begin by a simple syllable count. That is what I have done.

There was a time I was once, he, a child: 10
stumped and short limbs could not keep pace to eyes10
wide with life , thoughtlessly thoughtful and wild; 10
running and clutching a world since demised.10

Memories though, like soft sucker candies 10
stick to the roof of my mind and disjoint 10
leaving but rough-shod raw sores rubbed itchy.10
He was the one who appreciated the true point. 13

When I was once he, a child I'd a Mother who loved 13
me very much and so doted a great sum of time 13
and her patience to the goal of teaching me above 13
all that I must always learn from the nursed subtle rhymes. 13

And so began a habit I have since, myself, lost. 13
Whenever words appeared strange and unknown 10
it was required of him: with the dictionary, floss 12
knowledge's cavities, that new-born tongue might be honed.13

Then he, a child, would at once further press 10
daily to make use of this newly learned 10
word; just to taste for his buds to caress.10
Loved them all, words, and the way that he heard.10

He didn't get it, how could someone hate 10
him if never had they once talked to him. 10
Child, he was, scrubbing the filth off his plate 10
like the fool thinks he is singing a hymn 10

I get the word; I am misanthropy 10
I the Dickensian fall that lacked an ascent 11?
I the forewarned, the rotten, sugar me 10
I who ate him; he a child; he who once was innocent 13

Now you can see the variations in syllable count. With straight verse forms like the simplest iambic pentameter (dit dah dit dah dit dah dit da dit dah) you can easily relegate syllable count to the back of your mind. Make one up:
"If I compare you to a summer's day" you can get the idea BUT try this.
" If comparison to a summer's day" Same syllable count but the two lines are not congruent. You cannot lay one on top of the other and make the emphases line up.
Forget the iambs and trochees and anapests just hear the rhythm.
First line.
If I/com pare/ you to/ a sum/ mers day
2nd.
If/com par/is on/to a/sum mers/day. Reads as" If/ com par is on/ to a/ sum mers/ day"
Can you see the emphases difference?

What you have done, and done badly, is try to keep to 10 count syllabic lines but completely ignored the rhythm ( a much better ambition than meter).
Tap it out again.
Best,
tectak