Difference between poetry and prose?

[billy]

O...M....G...If I wasn't intimated before, I certainly am now. I thought there was a distinct definition for "poetry" and "prose" (I don't even know what "verse" is). After all these answers, it looks like a subjective distinction.

i think prose is one of the intangible things that sometimes depends on who's doing the reading

I didn't know what any of those poetic vices were. It seems that even daily speech could be categorized as poetry. Who doesn't speak without using figurative language or metaphor?

devices. alot of them can be found here. it's the old art thing, i don't what art is bit i know what i like. while some prose has poetic devices. it has to have a certain something to separate it into being a poem. (i think)

Todd's is pretty much the only answer I could understand . It's the same for me--it's a feeling.

The writing I posted in the Miscellaneous Poetry section called Precarious Love is one that I might have called poetic prose: http://pigpenpoetry.com/Thread-Precarious-Love It is more poetic than many poems I read on here, but I actually still feel it to be prose...and yet I don't think it's prose, because it's not really a story, but an expression of an experience I had. What is it, actually?

i read the piece again and have to admit to seeing it as prose. enjoyable nonetheless, mainly due to the format and wordiness that's associated with prose.

---

On the contrary, well written free verse uses a selection of poetic techniques and sonic devices -- and it must use them well, because there is no ready-made skeleton of form to hang it on. Without some structure developed by the poet, it just ends up a lump of occasionally-twitching flesh.

This, for example, is a delightfully gory bit of poetry I mean eeeeeewwwww!!!!
[/quote]

[Todd]

The writing I posted in the Miscellaneous Poetry section called Precarious Love is one that I might have called poetic prose: http://pigpenpoetry.com/Thread-Precarious-Love It is more poetic than many poems I read on here, but I actually still feel it to be prose...and yet I don't think it's prose, because it's not really a story, but an expression of an experience I had. What is it, actually?

I reread this. I would subjectively view this as a prose poem where you could pare it down some to make it pop more. Prose to me feels a little too connected to every step of the narrative. Prose poetry seems to condense a little more. The snowflakes and the streetlamp part for instance screams prose poem to me.

But yes you're right, it can get confused because good writing should use figurative language at some point.

[rowens]

Poetry is like music. You experience something as poetry, or as music. Sometimes an article in a magazine is just an article in a magazine, sometimes it's poetry. Sometimes the sound of rain falling on your roof is just a sound, sometimes it's music to your ears. Music isn't just heard, it's felt, you don't only feel its physical vibrations, but its emotional and intellectual resonance. Music is sound transcended, for purely subjective reasons. And if you don't subjectively experience something as poetry or music, you can still try to objectively understand why others might. I think that Edgar Poe's story about the Red Death is very much a prose poem. Here's the opening and the ending:


'The "Red Death" had long devastated the country. No pestilence had ever been so fatal, or so hideous. Blood was its Avatar and its seal -- the redness and the horror of blood. There were sharp pains, and sudden dizziness, and then profuse bleeding at the pores, with dissolution. The scarlet stains upon the body and especially upon the face of the victim, were the pest ban which shut him out from the aid and from the sympathy of his fellow-men. And the whole seizure, progress and termination of the disease, were the incidents of half an hour.
'But the Prince Prospero was happy and dauntless and sagacious. When his dominions were half depopulated, he summoned to his presence a thousand hale and light-hearted friends from among the knights and dames of his court, and with these retired to the deep seclusion of one of his castellated abbeys. This was an extensive and magnificent structure, the creation of the prince's own eccentric yet august taste. A strong and lofty wall girdled it in. This wall had gates of iron. The courtiers, having entered, brought furnaces and massy hammers and welded the bolts. They resolved to leave means neither of ingress or egress to the sudden impulses of despair or of frenzy from within. The abbey was amply provisioned. With such precautions the courtiers might bid defiance to contagion. The external world could take care of itself. In the meantime it was folly to grieve, or to think. The prince had provided all the appliances of pleasure. There were buffoons, there were improvisatori, there were ballet-dancers, there were musicians, there was Beauty, there was wine. All these and security were within. Without was the "Red Death."...


'...And now was acknowledged the presence of the Red Death. He had come like a thief in the night. And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. And the life of the ebony clock went out with that of the last of the gay. And the flames of the tripods expired. And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.'

[abu nuwas]

Prose, by definition, is not poetry, in the same way that a circle is not a square.

The mere fact that some bright spark thought it would be v cutting edge, about 100 years ago, to speak of what he wrote as a prose-poem, does not mean that others need follow that. In the mind of Mr or Mrs Average, a poem involves some combination of meter and rhyme. I am not so elitist as to look down on that.

The absurdity of twisting terminology produces all sorts of problems. Poetry, now encompassing anything and everything, has to be qualified when people really mean poetry: and so we have 'traditional poetry'. What if I compose a traditional prose-poem?

As to Todd's snippet from Poe, it is a good example of vivid prose, which happily does not slip into the flowery or 'poetic'.

[Leanne]

Although I'm generally quite flexible about the definition of poetry, I admit I do not accept such a thing as "prose poetry". I enjoy poetic prose but when it's structured in sentences and paragraphs, it's prose, no matter how pretty. "Prose" is used almost like a swear word by some poets -- I'm not one of them. There are vessels for every thought.

[Rose Love]

Why do I fall apart when he stays away
for days and days?
More importantly,
why does he stay away from me,
why does he leave me
…alone…wondering…writing…

“I sit alone here in my dark, silent room,
writing to you by candlelight
staring out the window at the falling snow;
each little snowflake
living its brief moment in the light of the street lamp,
lingering or hastened through this limelight
at the whim of the wind,
passing thus away,
back into the dark space of night,
becoming again invisible,
forgotten.

Here I wait for you.
I’ve waited for you all day.
You said you would come.
You did not come.
I ask myself in my solitude
‘Did he forget me?’
I ask myself
‘Why does everyone forget me?’
like a small girl left waiting alone outside
in the cold
after her school has closed for the day
and all her classmates
long since picked up and taken back home
to the warm embrace
of a family.

The small girl stands alone,
shivering in the cold,
unclaimed, orphaned…scared.
Nobody wants her,
nobody remembers her -
not even her own parents.

As I stare into the night,
white with falling snow,
deep inside me I feel this pain -
my brief time in the light of your love is done.

I ask myself,
‘How many days will he desert me for this time?
How many weeks?’

I ask myself,
‘Why did they forget me?
Why did they leave me alone,
waiting?’
Time after time, I only find one explanation -
I am not worthy.”

Ok, so now my prose is a poem. Because I put it in lines?
I disagree. It's the content that makes a poem in my opinion and how you shape the content is purely cosmetic. Poetry is not skin-deep.

Now that I separate this writing into lines, I think it is a poem and definitely not purely prose. But I want it written as a prose piece. When I have it in the form of prose, it has a connected flow that it doesn't have when I separate it into lines. To me, it is therefore poetic prose. A poem written in the form of prose.

[rowens]

I did some very bad things years ago. I made a few essays that I called 'essay poems', and I made a poem in the form of a document-report file about aliens. Not only that, in one of my essay poems, I discussed things that I called 'literal metaphors'. I like to write poetry in praxis, poetry that is like a code you type into a computer or a virus or a ritual or a foolish dance of drunkenness that makes me or somebody feel and think things instead of losing the will to live or settling for nothing. If somebody puts a lot of effort into writing a poem in prose, and someone says, "that is impossible! you can't write a poem in prose! that's an oxymoron!" I'd say, maybe I'm a moron, and I wrote an 'oxymoronic poem'. I was told once, "Your poem is very prosey, and therefore dull." I said that was my intention, the prose feel, and they said that my intention isn't important. And I agreed. You don't have to work very hard to offend a reader, you don't even have to have the intention to offend them.

---

Poetry is more than words. It's more than techniques, it's more than form. It is the process. And a poem is a moment of the process. There are rules and arguments about the rules for the sake of continuing this process, because without rules, you would be free to do nothing. And I boldly make the obvious statement that: to be a poet you have to do something. And to do something, you have to have things that you're not doing. And so when Leanne says that she doesn't accept such a thing as "prose poetry", she gives me the choice to say I do agree with her, or I do accept such a thing as "prose poetry". I've read prose poems, and I've made prose poems. The fact that an intelligent person versed in the rules of poetry exists that tells me that I can't write a prose poem makes writing prose poems more challenging, more intense, and more enjoyable.

[Rose Love]

---

Poetry is more than words. It's more than techniques, it's more than form. It is the process. And a poem is a moment of the process.

I like that.

I write a lot in all different types of writing and I think that the way I distinguish what is poetry vs. what isn't is the feeling I have when I'm writing, which comes out in the result. Prose such as I've written in newspaper articles and writings that were going to be books (which I've abandoned for the time-being) are definitively not poems, and I know that, because they don't feel like poems and the purpose I write them with is entirely different from, for example, the purpose I wrote the Precarious Love poem. I think the purpose plays a big part and determines the feeling of the result and maybe even whether the result will be a poem or not.

[Leanne]

The fact that an intelligent person versed in the rules of poetry exists that tells me that I can't write a prose poem makes writing prose poems more challenging, more intense, and more enjoyable.

And I might read them, and perhaps enjoy them, but it's still unlikely that they will fit into my definition of poetry. Rather, I have a grey area that I call "fusion" -- neither poetry nor prose, but something that exploits the conventions of both genres. I appreciate good writing, no matter what its structure, but just as I will not call a sonnet a limerick, I will not call prose poetry.

[Rose Love]

The fact that an intelligent person versed in the rules of poetry exists that tells me that I can't write a prose poem makes writing prose poems more challenging, more intense, and more enjoyable.

And I might read them, and perhaps enjoy them, but it's still unlikely that they will fit into my definition of poetry. Rather, I have a grey area that I call "fusion" -- neither poetry nor prose, but something that exploits the conventions of both genres. I appreciate good writing, no matter what its structure, but just as I will not call a sonnet a limerick, I will not call prose poetry.

I'm curious whether you consider the Precarious Love writing prose or poetry?

[Leanne]

I consider it poetry when presented like that -- the fact that you have broken it into strophes/ stanzas rather than paragraphs is not the deciding factor though, it's that you have considered where to put the line breaks rather than making them arbitrary. You use poetic devices -- metaphor, personification -- so, if your intent is for it to be a poem, then it is.

[rowens]

What do you think of "Une saison en enfer" by Rimbaud? Or the "verset"?

I think more in the attitude of writing poetry. The Bible is poetry, no matter how you translate it. It has that intent of forming reality. That's what I mean by poetry. Though poetry isn't limited to that attitude.

---

And that word "Fusion" is something Billy talked with me about one time. Though I then changed the word to "immanence". And it's similar to what you say with "grey area", though I was talking about the symbolic power of poetry, immanent in the "spiritual" experience of life. That spiritual order of human life, that poetry shapes. That "grey area" between reality and fantasy that shapes how we behave and what we believe. It's just that you're talking about writing, and forms of writing; and I'm talking about the attitude and intention of the writing when I say Poetry.

[abu nuwas]

What do you think of "Une saison en enfer" by Rimbaud? Or the "verset"?

I think more in the attitude of writing poetry. The Bible is poetry, no matter how you translate it. It has that intent of forming reality. That's what I mean by poetry. Though poetry isn't limited to that attitude.

---

And that word "Fusion" is something Billy talked with me about one time. Though I then changed the word to "immanence". And it's similar to what you say with "grey area", though I was talking about the symbolic power of poetry, immanent in the "spiritual" experience of life. That spiritual order of human life, that poetry shapes. That "grey area" between reality and fantasy that shapes how we behave and what we believe. It's just that you're talking about writing, and forms of writing; and I'm talking about the attitude and intention of the writing when I say Poetry.

Rowens

That is v interesting. As to attitude and intention, you remind me of an old legal maxim: ''The state of a man's mind is as much a fact as that of his digestion''. Of course, no-one else knows either one. All that we have, is what a person has chosen to record on paper.

As to the Bible being poetry, it is not to me. It has poetry in it. But I do not consider this poetry-- merely the hazy attempt of a primitive people to recall and preserve the memory of snippets of their history:

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:

7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:

8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.

9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:

10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:

11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.

12 And Cainan lived seventy years and begat Mahalaleel:

13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:

14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.

15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:

16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:

17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.

18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:

19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.

21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:

22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.

26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:

27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:

29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.

30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:

31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.

32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

I believe that Rimbaud called this Hell thing as prose. But he was perhaps not the best judge, as he had just been shot by his chum, Verlaine, who did 2 years in clink for it. He was living back with Mum at the time.

[rowens]

While I'm still here, I thought I'd say what I think about that Rimbaud poem. I think he was still trying to do what he'd failed to do with poetry, by writing about his failure. And it was the attitude of a poet that brought him to write his most famous poem in prose. But we all have our reasons for what we say or do. If we are poets.

---

I think the "New Testament", at least the four gospels, are great poetry. And like you said, some of the Bible is history stuck in with the belief codes, art, and laws of the people. But over time, it was collaborated into some big monster of a poem. Not always very beautiful. And my personal use of the four gospels, and how I "realize" or translate them, makes them beautiful to me. Though that's not true, in my opinion, of many that use them.

[abu nuwas]

Why do I fall apart when he stays away
for days and days?
More importantly,
why does he stay away from me,
why does he leave me
…alone…wondering…writing…

“I sit alone here in my dark, silent room,
writing to you by candlelight
staring out the window at the falling snow;
each little snowflake
living its brief moment in the light of the street lamp,
lingering or hastened through this limelight
at the whim of the wind,
passing thus away,
back into the dark space of night,
becoming again invisible,
forgotten.

Here I wait for you.
I’ve waited for you all day.
You said you would come.
You did not come.
I ask myself in my solitude
‘Did he forget me?’
I ask myself
‘Why does everyone forget me?’
like a small girl left waiting alone outside
in the cold
after her school has closed for the day
and all her classmates
long since picked up and taken back home
to the warm embrace
of a family.

The small girl stands alone,
shivering in the cold,
unclaimed, orphaned…scared.
Nobody wants her,
nobody remembers her -
not even her own parents.

As I stare into the night,
white with falling snow,
deep inside me I feel this pain -
my brief time in the light of your love is done.

I ask myself,
‘How many days will he desert me for this time?
How many weeks?’

I ask myself,
‘Why did they forget me?
Why did they leave me alone,
waiting?’
Time after time, I only find one explanation -
I am not worthy.”

Ok, so now my prose is a poem. Because I put it in lines?
I disagree. It's the content that makes a poem in my opinion and how you shape the content is purely cosmetic. Poetry is not skin-deep.

Now that I separate this writing into lines, I think it is a poem and definitely not purely prose. But I want it written as a prose piece. When I have it in the form of prose, it has a connected flow that it doesn't have when I separate it into lines. To me, it is therefore poetic prose. A poem written in the form of prose.

Rose Love,

Hmmm...... yes......but doesn't everything have content? Is some content more valid, or poetic, than the rest? What if the content is more oblique, or even light-weight, but cast in the most intricate and clever structures? No marks for that?

[Leanne]

I think more in the attitude of writing poetry. The Bible is poetry, no matter how you translate it. It has that intent of forming reality. That's what I mean by poetry. Though poetry isn't limited to that attitude.

I suppose it comes down to the attitude of the reader, in this case. I don't consider the Bible to be poetry at all. It has poetic elements, but for the most part it is didactic verse, the New Testament even moreso than the old. There are very few segments I would consider beautiful, and most of those were most likely stuck in during the 16th century, whether it was by Shakespeare (as rumour would have it) or some poetic contemporary.

[abu nuwas]

I see a lot of suggestions that metaphor, in particular, is a cue as to whether a thing is, or is not, poetry. Yet I use it in everyday speech. When I say ''That guy is a complete fruit-cake'' , about someone who sees things very slightly differently from me, I do not truly suppose him to be something fresh from the baker's. But nor do I imagine I am declaiming a mini-master-piece.

Pup is doing well.......

[Leanne]

Pup is doing very well, thank goodness, or it would be totally embarrassing

No, metaphor alone does not a poem make. Metaphor is a poetic technique, of course, but you can't build a poem around one single phrase. There is something to the intent idea, but just wanting something to be recognised as a poem is not enough. At least a few other people really do have to agree with you

[rowens]

I understand that. But in the case of the poetry of something like a bible, the reader lives the poem, the reader translates his own worldview and how he experiences things through it. It isn't necessarily very beautiful at all. Subjectively it might not be poetry to me or you, but to some people it's plain fact. Like Shakespeare or Greek mythology, it's a poetic source that breeds more poetry. They call it religion, and we do too, but it lives through symbols. Symbols that are one and the same time "only symbolic" and "true", when it comes to affective experience. Leanne, you love many of the Romantic poets, don't you? You see what I mean about poetry as religion?

[Leanne]

No. Poetry is not a calling for me, it's something I do because I can't paint.