(01-13-2010, 06:48 AM)billy Wrote:  i say people should be allowed to dress how they want and if they get raped the the victim isn't to blame.

I agree with you that the victim should [i[not[/i] to be blamed. But girls should know better. Reality is that it isn't a perfect world and there are lots of disgusting people out there. If you dress temptingly it is acceptable because you maybe looking for something/someone. But if you draw too much attention to yourself then that's not good.

(01-17-2010, 09:36 PM)SidewaysDan Wrote:  

(01-13-2010, 06:48 AM)billy Wrote:  i say people should be allowed to dress how they want and if they get raped the the victim isn't to blame.

I agree with you that the victim should [i[not[/i] to be blamed. But girls should know better. Reality is that it isn't a perfect world and there are lots of disgusting people out there. If you dress temptingly it is acceptable because you maybe looking for something/someone. But if you draw too much attention to yourself then that's not good.

yep i agree dan. but dressing in a tempting way or being silly in the way you dress shouldn't in any way be a mitigating circumstance for rape.

Here is a rather rhetorical question but I think should be asked. Is there a female contributing to this thread that has been violated in this way? Was there a trial?

Besides, to say it's "silly" for women to dress attractively in a society that glorifies beautiful women and laughs at ugly ones is a little hypocritical. It's like society wants to sezualize women, and then turn around and make it feel like its their fault for being sex objects.

That is a good point. I believe the next step is for women, and men to excercize their autonomity in the consumer market. That I believe is where it all stems from. What we see, and how we think we perceive our society as a whole, is monopolized through the media. It's an illusion of grandour that perpetuates the idea of the other - the I want to be like that person market. We as a society need to take a step back and look at ourselves, and ask "at what part of my anatomical structure am I most beautiful? And if you take everything else away from it, is it still beautiful?" So far public media has not at all concerned itself with the true nature of beauty. They have created their own definitions. And I believe that's where the problem starts. Beauty was once fodder for the poets, as it is now blood for the wolves.

---

I think I went a little off topic. Sorry. I'm wined, but not dined. A woman can do many things to a man, but for as long as the moral code stands, man will have to keep it in his pants. A woman should never be blamed. That's like saying it was a lamb's fault for being eaten by a wolf. Oh, well he shouldn't have looked so delicious.

(01-18-2010, 12:30 PM)addy Wrote:  Besides, to say it's "silly" for women to dress attractively in a society that glorifies beautiful women and laughs at ugly ones is a little hypocritical. It's like society wants to sezualize women, and then turn around and make it feel like its their fault for being sex objects.

.

at present we only have addy as far as i know scrufuss.

good point addy, i have been guilty of the laugh you mention
though i laugh at everyone. i do think that a society that expects women to be sexy is rather hypocritical when they do it outside of a magazine of tv show.

(01-18-2010, 12:30 PM)addy Wrote:  Besides, to say it's "silly" for women to dress attractively in a society that glorifies beautiful women and laughs at ugly ones is a little hypocritical. It's like society wants to sezualize women, and then turn around and make it feel like its their fault for being sex objects.

It is not their blame and it is not hypocritical. There are just some very dangerous men out there. If your unfortunate enough to come across one then it's not your fault. But common sense should never be overlooked.

And men like women who dress showing a bit. But to blame it on men would be wrong too

(01-19-2010, 03:27 AM)SidewaysDan Wrote:  

(01-18-2010, 12:30 PM)addy Wrote:  Besides, to say it's "silly" for women to dress attractively in a society that glorifies beautiful women and laughs at ugly ones is a little hypocritical. It's like society wants to sezualize women, and then turn around and make it feel like its their fault for being sex objects.

It is not their blame and it is not hypocritical. There are just some very dangerous men out there. If your unfortunate enough to come across one then it's not your fault. But common sense should never be overlooked.

And men like women who dress showing a bit. But to blame it on men would be wrong too

often men don't rape a women because of how she dresses. often they may use the way she dresses as an excuse but they didn't rape because of that. and very often that isn't the trigger for rape. most rape occur with people walking home late at night fully covered or to a family member.
and yes men like women showing a bit so for them to say she deserves because she dresses like a slut to please us because thats what we expect does sound hypocritical to me. almost everything concerning fashion and appearance leads towards the woman being an object of desire.
from make up to handbags. to not wholly lay the blame on the rapist is and has to be so wrong.

(01-19-2010, 05:54 AM)billy Wrote:  to not wholly lay the blame on the rapist is and has to be so wrong.

You misunderstood. I'm saying the person to blame is the rapist - not men. You shouldn't blame all men for some sick b*stards work. Saying that we like women to dress "appealingly" does not mean you can take out the blame on every man.

(01-19-2010, 06:07 AM)SidewaysDan Wrote:  

(01-19-2010, 05:54 AM)billy Wrote:  to not wholly lay the blame on the rapist is and has to be so wrong.

You misunderstood. I'm saying the person to blame is the rapist - not men. You shouldn't blame all men for some sick b*stards work. Saying that we like women to dress "appealingly" does not mean you can take out the blame on every man.

right. though we should also tell the men who say she was asking for it. they're the ones i'm saying are hypocritical sd.

(01-19-2010, 06:13 AM)billy Wrote:  right. though we should also tell the men who say she was asking for it. they're the ones i'm saying are hypocritical sd.

I agree. No woman would "ask for it". That's just chauvinist talk to blame women. If you can't control yourself you just make up excuses.

You're right of course. It's the rapist we are castigating here for the crime of rape. Just that in this topic we were also discussing the peanut gallery, the people who look at the case and go "Well, she deserved it because so and so." So in this case we also need to confront how society views rape, how it views sexuality, etc. Not saying it's wrong for men to be attracted to women, just that there are a lot of bad men out there who "blame" women for their own impulses.

Nad made a good point. In a lot of ways the media has trained us to objectify one another (men objectifying women, women objectifying men) because we these images of beautiful people and they're not real people to us, the idea that they're real people and not just fantasy objects becomes so remote. That's where the bizarre rapist excuse comes from, where he sees a beautiful woman and sees her as just a body, not a person.

(01-19-2010, 06:21 AM)SidewaysDan Wrote:  

(01-19-2010, 06:13 AM)billy Wrote:  right. though we should also tell the men who say she was asking for it. they're the ones i'm saying are hypocritical sd.

I agree. No woman would "ask for it". That's just chauvinist talk to blame women. If you can't control yourself you just make up excuses.

Or get neutered.

---

(01-19-2010, 11:01 AM)addy Wrote:  You're right of course. It's the rapist we are castigating here for the crime of rape. Just that in this topic we were also discussing the peanut gallery, the people who look at the case and go "Well, she deserved it because so and so." So in this case we also need to confront how society views rape, how it views sexuality, etc. Not saying it's wrong for men to be attracted to women, just that there are a lot of bad men out there who "blame" women for their own impulses.

Nad made a good point. In a lot of ways the media has trained us to objectify one another (men objectifying women, women objectifying men) because we these images of beautiful people and they're not real people to us, the idea that they're real people and not just fantasy objects becomes so remote. That's where the bizarre rapist excuse comes from, where he sees a beautiful woman and sees her as just a body, not a person.

The Subject Line implies the possibility that woman may be at fault. Bullshit. Its absurd to even consider it.
The guys who look at girls and say "fuck how can they wonder why I want to rape her with all that exposed skin looking too good for her own good."
They would be your local male chauvinistic womanizing pigs.
Keep an eye out

(01-06-2010, 09:55 PM)Benny2guns Wrote:  I'll admit to being one of those people that look at alot of women and think...fuck me and they wonder why they get raped. I know it's not right but shit lets face facts alot of them wear little to cover anything and throw it around like it's there for the first one to take it. You add that into the booze & drug party mix and you've really got a recipe for a cock tease to get an unwanted session. The so called offender often not knowing the difference from the signals being broadcast by the so called victim. I really think that in this scenario there are at least 2 victims and the underling reason for the questionable ethics applied by investigators. I am not saying they are right in their actions but i can see where they are coming from.

Benny2guns said>The so called offender often not knowing the difference from the signals being broadcast by the so called victim.
The offender most certainly does know the difference whether any signals are given to him or not.
The perpetrator should not get any leeway because of some "mixed signals" which may be advice given to him by his attorney or what he thought he perceived.
The police should all be well informed and do the job in a way that's conducive to helping the victim and getting info from her to help catch the offender.
They should not ever be using their personal feelings and beliefs into this equation no matter what and I also understand that not doing so is asking quite a lot of any person whether they are in law enforcement or not.
The only victim is the person being raped.
Rape is not a crime committed because the perpetrator can't get laid
let's get that straight, right off the bat okay?

Here are some facts about rape courtesy of www.hopeforhealing.or
A rape happens in the US every six minutes.
4 out of 5 rapes are committed by a person the victim knows.
Only 16% of rapes are ever reported regardless of how or where it took place.
Less than 1% of men ever report their rape.

http://www.hopeforhealing.org/myths.html

Men Who Rape: The Psychology of The Offender by Nicholas Groth,H. Jean Birnbaum
*Careful study of offenders in these cases will usually reveal evidence of his pathology and his responsibility for the offense:
flaws in regards to impulse/self control,respect for others,perceptual interpretation,social skills,frustration tolerance and the like
which, in fact, activate the assault.
Yet the old ideas die slowly,especially the notion of sexual provocation
and false accusation,and in the prosecution of a rape case the defense attorney
typically tries to impeach the victims credibility by addressing rape as a
crime of passion,implying the victim has aroused such desire.
Issues of provocation are really ridiculous when you consider that the
victims of rapists include males as well as females and include all age categories
from infancy to old age.
There is no place, season, nor time of day in which a rape has not occurred, nor is there any specific type of person to whom
it has never happened.
C.B.

*I have taken a few paragraphs from this book to show my opinion of why
some rapes happen and also to show why people hold on to their outmoded ideas.

(01-21-2010, 11:00 AM)cigarbabe Wrote:  

(01-06-2010, 09:55 PM)Benny2guns Wrote:  I'll admit to being one of those people that look at alot of women and think...fuck me and they wonder why they get raped. I know it's not right but shit lets face facts alot of them wear little to cover anything and throw it around like it's there for the first one to take it. You add that into the booze & drug party mix and you've really got a recipe for a cock tease to get an unwanted session. The so called offender often not knowing the difference from the signals being broadcast by the so called victim. I really think that in this scenario there are at least 2 victims and the underling reason for the questionable ethics applied by investigators. I am not saying they are right in their actions but i can see where they are coming from.

Benny2guns said>The so called offender often not knowing the difference from the signals being broadcast by the so called victim.
The offender most certainly does know the difference whether any signals are given to him or not.
The perpetrator should not get any leeway because of some "mixed signals" which may be advice given to him by his attorney or what he thought he perceived.
The police should all be well informed and do the job in a way that's conducive to helping the victim and getting info from her to help catch the offender.
They should not ever be using their personal feelings and beliefs into this equation no matter what and I also understand that not doing so is asking quite a lot of any person whether they are in law enforcement or not.
The only victim is the person being raped.
Rape is not a crime committed because the perpetrator can't get laid
let's get that straight, right off the bat okay?

Here are some facts about rape courtesy of www.hopeforhealing.or
A rape happens in the US every six minutes.
4 out of 5 rapes are committed by a person the victim knows.
Only 16% of rapes are ever reported regardless of how or where it took place.
Less than 1% of men ever report their rape.

http://www.hopeforhealing.org/myths.html

Men Who Rape: The Psychology of The Offender by Nicholas Groth,H. Jean Birnbaum
*Careful study of offenders in these cases will usually reveal evidence of his pathology and his responsibility for the offense:
flaws in regards to impulse/self control,respect for others,perceptual interpretation,social skills,frustration tolerance and the like
which, in fact, activate the assault.
Yet the old ideas die slowly,especially the notion of sexual provocation
and false accusation,and in the prosecution of a rape case the defense attorney
typically tries to impeach the victims credibility by addressing rape as a
crime of passion,implying the victim has aroused such desire.
Issues of provocation are really ridiculous when you consider that the
victims of rapists include males as well as females and include all age categories
from infancy to old age.
There is no place, season, nor time of day in which a rape has not occurred, nor is there any specific type of person to whom
it has never happened.
C.B.

*I have taken a few paragraphs from this book to show my opinion of why
some rapes happen and also to show why people hold on to their outmoded ideas.

i think benny may be on about when things go to the stage of they guy getting his dick out and the girl saying yes and then at the point of entry saying no.

the booze and often drugs i think play a part. that said the guy is still guilty of rape and the woman is only guilty of stupidity.

again we have other times of the cry of rape when there was none but i agree we're not taling about false claims or any other kind of claims. just whether or not the woman is to blame for dressing in a sexy manner.

i don't think she is.

as stated above most times rape has nothing to do with drug or booze. it's done by a family member in the home.

In fact, the statistics of women getting raped for being "sexy" is probably very low. CB's right, it could happen to anyone, in almost any situation. And as Billy said, a huge percentage of it happens within the family (or any trusted circle of "friends" that could be equivalent)... in most cases "sexiness" is not an issue. It's a false perception.

Like what has mentioned before, lots of rape cases don't happen because the rapists were attracted to their victims, but because in some warped way they wanted to "punish" their victims and make themselves feel superior. A power fantasy, not a sexual one.

The prevalence of this sociopathic act is made worse by this myth of the "cold fish"... at one time it was acceptable to mock women who "don't put out". I think times are changing now, though, which is good.

oh,it's defenitely a power trip,look what happens during wars

(01-18-2010, 01:25 PM)billy Wrote:  

(01-18-2010, 12:30 PM)addy Wrote:  Besides, to say it's "silly" for women to dress attractively in a society that glorifies beautiful women and laughs at ugly ones is a little hypocritical. It's like society wants to sezualize women, and then turn around and make it feel like its their fault for being sex objects.

.

at present we only have addy as far as i know scrufuss.
You may also add my name to the horrifying "been there had it done to me" list.
Sadly.

good point addy, i have been guilty of the laugh you mention
though i laugh at everyone. i do think that a society that expects women to be sexy is rather hypocritical when they do it outside of a magazine of tv show.

(01-23-2010, 05:09 PM)velvetfog Wrote:  From a male chauvinist pig perspective, any woman not wearing a burka is just "asking for it".

you have a point.

i know some real life people like that
they treat women like shit on a regular basis.

(01-23-2010, 05:09 PM)velvetfog Wrote:  From a male chauvinist pig perspective, any woman not wearing a burka is just "asking for it".

Even if she's wearing a burkha in some of the middle eastern countries woman
are to blame if they are raped because men "allegedly" cannot resist nor can they be expected to control themselves while "intoxicated" by her evil wily charms.
These are the myths that need to be expunged from Islamic law.
These are the sole reasons women and girls are murdered by their families.
I can't imagine my brother's hunting me down to kill me like less than an animal for something I had no part in just to "restore" the families "honor".
Just for being a woman you are less than scum, not even a person for fucks sake!
C.B.