If you get to Tiruchirapalli

on your Indian trip

make sure you visit the Hall 

of a Thousand Pillars 

in Chidambaram, and ask

the monks to show you 

the shrine of Shiva.



The curtain opens daily 

on empty space filled 

by an entity without volume, 

flowing like waves in 

a timeless dream;

unceasing, pure Akasa.



You may know it already, as 

aether, the quintessence, 

or the Seal of Solomon. 

It is the essence before time 

and place, where Shiva dances. 



Emptiness is not at all the same 
as nothing.


First draft  

Make sure you visit
the Hall of a Thousand Pillars
in Chidambaram. Ask the monks
to take you to Shiva’s shrine.

The curtain opens daily to show
empty space filled by an entity
without volume. It flows
as waves in a timeless dream;
unceasing, pure Akasa.

You know it already, as aether,
quintessence, Solomon’s Seal.
This is the time and place between,
where Shiva dances. Emptiness
is not the same as nothing.




 
 
 

(09-13-2016, 10:19 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  
Make sure you visit 
the Hall of a Thousand Pillars 
in Chidambaram. Ask the monks 
to take you to Shiva’s shrine. I'm interested that the opening stanza is so conversational, like a guide book, especially considering the divine descriptions which follow.

The curtain opens daily to show 
empty space filled by an entity
without volume. It flows cool line
as waves in a timeless dream; I wouldn't use semicolon but that's personal preference in poetry I say
unceasing, pure Akasa.

You know it already, as aether, 
quintessence, Solomon’s Seal. 
This is the time and place between, I thought it was timeless? I like space better than place to play on space-time
where Shiva dances. Emptiness 
is not the same as nothing. This same conversational tone of the last line works with the new subject matter.

Thanks for sharing

 
 
 

(09-13-2016, 10:19 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  This is a very, very specific poem. I can already appreciate it now, but the depths of it, I'll only really know knowing the places, the terms, perhaps even the concepts, intimately.
Make sure you visit
the Hall of a Thousand Pillars
in Chidambaram. Ask the monks Why is it that I can't really imagine monks in the more proper, contemplative sense -- that is, that I feel like this actual place has been turned into a tourist trap? xD
to take you to Shiva’s shrine.

The curtain opens daily to show
empty space filled by an entity
without volume. It flows Looking at the pictures, though, I see no emptiness. The center of the chamber maybe empty, but the walls and the columns are filled with idols (I believe each pillar in the Hall of a Thousand Pillars is adorned with a lion? or with a god), so that I don't get a sense of the appropriate emptiness.
as waves in a timeless dream;
unceasing, pure Akasa. Or is the emptiness the whole image of Shiva (and Parvati) themselves? Actually, it probably is, though it's a little weird, finding emptiness in horror vacui -- though weird in a hopeful way, or in an ironic way?

You know it already, as aether,
quintessence, Solomon’s Seal. I feel like the conflation of Solomon's Seal, a material sigil of mortal power over divine elements, with aether, which is the essence infilling the spaces between all heavenly (but not Heavenly) things, is somewhat wrong. Solomon's Seal may represent the same sort of force by which the aether moves and sustains all heavenly bodies, but by definition it is an object of earth, tied to the earth and made of the other four elements, while aether is made of heaven, in heaven.
This is the time and place between,
where Shiva dances. Emptiness I suppose this is the statement that made me somewhat conclude that there is emptiness in horror vacui. I suppose it's like hesychasm -- as one empties the mind, one can experience a knowledge of God. Or the devil, in this case.
is not the same as nothing.
But otherwise, I think everything's good. I can't really criticize it stylistically -- it all works. Very clean -- lovely. Maybe if I give it more time.




 
 
 

My issue is with the lack of concrete imagery. Entity, dream, emptiness, between, quintessence -- they're not moving me toward a better understanding of the subject. They are all different ways of saying 'this thing is amorphous and unknowable.' You have waves and Solomon's Seal, and the curtain opening on the dance which is very theatrical (I like it), and those things are evocative. Even if you only have a few palpable descriptors, that's enough, if they're the right ones. But, using vague words to define the vagueness isn't speaking to me.

I think you could really do something great with the curtain opening/dance imagery. Maybe there are elements of a dance that could be related to the subject and bring it 'down to earth,' as it were.

I hope this helps. If anything isn't articulated well, just ask. I'm having a hard time coming up with the right words (ironic since I'm a writer )

lizziep

(11-03-2016, 06:25 PM)lizziep Wrote:  My issue is with the lack of concrete imagery. Entity, dream, emptiness, between, quintessence -- they're not moving me toward a better understanding of the subject. They are all different ways of saying 'this thing is amorphous and unknowable.' You have waves and Solomon's Seal, and the curtain opening on the dance which is very theatrical (I like it), and those things are evocative. Even if you only have a few palpable descriptors, that's enough, if they're the right ones. But, using vague words to define the vagueness isn't speaking to me.

I think you could really do something great with the curtain opening/dance imagery. Maybe there are elements of a dance that could be related to the subject and bring it 'down to earth,' as it were.

I hope this helps. If anything isn't articulated well, just ask. I'm having a hard time coming up with the right words (ironic since I'm a writer )

lizziep

Hi Lizzie - it's impossible to speak in concrete images of No Thing. Maybe this short page can help you. 

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=vhWrjVscOj8C&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=is+limbo+finite+or+infinite&source=bl&ots=JdvAow1PeK&sig=Vn_02vDvObqOmep29ZpfkHEERvE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDvcH_lZrQAhVFJZQKHaAJBKcQ6AEIGTAA#v=onepage&q=is%20limbo%20finite%20or%20infinite&f=false

(11-09-2016, 07:11 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  

(11-03-2016, 06:25 PM)lizziep Wrote:  My issue is with the lack of concrete imagery. Entity, dream, emptiness, between, quintessence -- they're not moving me toward a better understanding of the subject. They are all different ways of saying 'this thing is amorphous and unknowable.' You have waves and Solomon's Seal, and the curtain opening on the dance which is very theatrical (I like it), and those things are evocative. Even if you only have a few palpable descriptors, that's enough, if they're the right ones. But, using vague words to define the vagueness isn't speaking to me.

I think you could really do something great with the curtain opening/dance imagery. Maybe there are elements of a dance that could be related to the subject and bring it 'down to earth,' as it were.

I hope this helps. If anything isn't articulated well, just ask. I'm having a hard time coming up with the right words (ironic since I'm a writer )

lizziep

Hi Lizzie - it's impossible to speak in concrete images of No Thing. Maybe this short page can help you. 

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=vhWrjVscOj8C&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=is+limbo+finite+or+infinite&source=bl&ots=JdvAow1PeK&sig=Vn_02vDvObqOmep29ZpfkHEERvE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDvcH_lZrQAhVFJZQKHaAJBKcQ6AEIGTAA#v=onepage&q=is%20limbo%20finite%20or%20infinite&f=false

Ok, I see what you're saying. Sorry my crit wasn't helpful.

(11-09-2016, 07:16 AM)lizziep Wrote:  

(11-09-2016, 07:11 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  

(11-03-2016, 06:25 PM)lizziep Wrote:  My issue is with the lack of concrete imagery. Entity, dream, emptiness, between, quintessence -- they're not moving me toward a better understanding of the subject. They are all different ways of saying 'this thing is amorphous and unknowable.' You have waves and Solomon's Seal, and the curtain opening on the dance which is very theatrical (I like it), and those things are evocative. Even if you only have a few palpable descriptors, that's enough, if they're the right ones. But, using vague words to define the vagueness isn't speaking to me.

I think you could really do something great with the curtain opening/dance imagery. Maybe there are elements of a dance that could be related to the subject and bring it 'down to earth,' as it were.

I hope this helps. If anything isn't articulated well, just ask. I'm having a hard time coming up with the right words (ironic since I'm a writer )

lizziep

Hi Lizzie - it's impossible to speak in concrete images of No Thing. Maybe this short page can help you. 

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=vhWrjVscOj8C&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=is+limbo+finite+or+infinite&source=bl&ots=JdvAow1PeK&sig=Vn_02vDvObqOmep29ZpfkHEERvE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDvcH_lZrQAhVFJZQKHaAJBKcQ6AEIGTAA#v=onepage&q=is%20limbo%20finite%20or%20infinite&f=false

Ok, I see what you're saying. Sorry my crit wasn't helpful.

Don't say that - your crit is helpful, because it gives me insight into how a reader responds to the poem. This one is maybe fine for an esoteric audience, so I'll submit it carefully.

It's a subject that's fascinated me for years.

Enjoyed this JM


quote='just mercedes' pid='216465' dateline='1473729562']
Make sure you visit ..............a rather travelogue-like  opening. Intentional? Does not work for me.
the Hall of a Thousand Pillars
in Chidambaram. Ask the monks
to take you to Shiva’s shrine..............leads this reader on to want to see more.
 
The curtain opens daily to show
empty space filled by an entity
without volume. It flows..................Maybe, but maybe a visitor might see and feel nothing special, you sem to assume a spiritual experience for everyone, when the opposite is probably more factual.

 as waves in a timeless dream;
unceasing, pure Akasa......................very deep, but again - supposition.

You know it already, as aether,
quintessence, Solomon’s Seal.
This is the time and place between,
where Shiva dances. Emptiness
is not the same as nothing. ..........Like last lines, makes me think of the phrase:
aloneness is not the same as alone, nor loneliness the same as being Alone.




I do like the poem, but it's speculative, and rather sure of itself.
Maybe a bit of personal doubt in the mix might make it more humanizing.







 
 
 
[/quote]

(11-18-2016, 11:38 PM)Sparkydashforth Wrote:  Enjoyed this JM


quote='just mercedes' pid='216465' dateline='1473729562']
Make sure you visit ..............a rather travelogue-like  opening. Intentional? Does not work for me.
the Hall of a Thousand Pillars
in Chidambaram. Ask the monks
to take you to Shiva’s shrine..............leads this reader on to want to see more.
 
The curtain opens daily to show
empty space filled by an entity
without volume. It flows..................Maybe, but maybe a visitor might see and feel nothing special, you sem to assume a spiritual experience for everyone, when the opposite is probably more factual.

 as waves in a timeless dream;
unceasing, pure Akasa......................very deep, but again - supposition.

You know it already, as aether,
quintessence, Solomon’s Seal.
This is the time and place between,
where Shiva dances. Emptiness
is not the same as nothing. ..........Like last lines, makes me think of the phrase:
aloneness is not the same as alone, nor loneliness the same as being Alone.




I do like the poem, but it's speculative, and rather sure of itself.
Maybe a bit of personal doubt in the mix might make it more humanizing.





Thank you for reading and commenting. Akasa is the very opposite of humanizing. 

I suppose poetry must now conform with the rule of ignorance.

 
 
 

[/quote]

I can't help reading this in the extreme metaphysical sense, sort of Donne-meets-Hesse with a knowing wink to Socrates.  The body is mostly space, yet we privilege the not-space as if it is only real if we can sense it.  Without space, everything would just clump together in an homogenous mass, no definition, no haecceity.  

I have felt this a few times in my life; the most recent was when I visited the sculpture garden at Broken Hill.  There you can walk among works of art created by incredible people out of the rock of the place itself, and feel inspired -- but then you stand at the edge of the hill and look out on desert for as far as you can see, until it joins with the sky.  You realise that you are both miraculous in your existence and insignificant except as witness to a series of instants. With space comes perspective.

So, I won't do line-by-lines as you don't really require your poem to be broken into components.  It is its quintessence.  For me as a reader, it is about what is not there more than the words themselves.

(11-19-2016, 05:47 AM)Leanne Wrote:  I can't help reading this in the extreme metaphysical sense, sort of Donne-meets-Hesse with a knowing wink to Socrates.  The body is mostly space, yet we privilege the not-space as if it is only real if we can sense it.  Without space, everything would just clump together in an homogenous mass, no definition, no haecceity.  

I have felt this a few times in my life; the most recent was when I visited the sculpture garden at Broken Hill.  There you can walk among works of art created by incredible people out of the rock of the place itself, and feel inspired -- but then you stand at the edge of the hill and look out on desert for as far as you can see, until it joins with the sky.  You realise that you are both miraculous in your existence and insignificant except as witness to a series of instants. With space comes perspective.

So, I won't do line-by-lines as you don't really require your poem to be broken into components.  It is its quintessence.  For me as a reader, it is about what is not there more than the words themselves.

Thank you Leanne. Space is like time; without it 'everything would just clump together' as you say. In art, including sculpture, I've always been fascinated by 'negative space' - the outside edges of things, and started wondering about 'positive space', whether everything has an 'inside edge' as well.  Somehow it ties in with Michelangelo's response to a 
question about how he 'saw' his work in a block of marble before he started carving. Something like ' I just take away all the pieces that don't belong'.

Maybe it's not a subject for poetry though.

Damn right it's a subject for poetry! Remember, a poem doesn't have to give anyone an answer -- questions are far more valuable for those of us who still find wonder in the world.

Nothing is not a subject for poetry (including nothing).

(11-19-2016, 02:42 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  

(11-18-2016, 11:38 PM)Sparkydashforth Wrote:  Enjoyed this JM


quote='just mercedes' pid='216465' dateline='1473729562']
Make sure you visit ..............a rather travelogue-like  opening. Intentional? Does not work for me.
the Hall of a Thousand Pillars
in Chidambaram. Ask the monks
to take you to Shiva’s shrine..............leads this reader on to want to see more.
 
The curtain opens daily to show
empty space filled by an entity
without volume. It flows..................Maybe, but maybe a visitor might see and feel nothing special, you sem to assume a spiritual experience for everyone, when the opposite is probably more factual.

 as waves in a timeless dream;
unceasing, pure Akasa......................very deep, but again - supposition.

You know it already, as aether,
quintessence, Solomon’s Seal.
This is the time and place between,
where Shiva dances. Emptiness
is not the same as nothing. ..........Like last lines, makes me think of the phrase:
aloneness is not the same as alone, nor loneliness the same as being Alone.




I do like the poem, but it's speculative, and rather sure of itself.
Maybe a bit of personal doubt in the mix might make it more humanizing.





Thank you for reading and commenting. Akasa is the very opposite of humanizing. 

I suppose poetry must now conform with the rule of ignorance.

 
 
 

[/quote]

---

Just a thought JM

if you were to put yourself into the poem, and illustrate your own experiences
the work would be more convincing.

Just trying to help here.

(11-19-2016, 01:41 PM)Sparkydashforth Wrote:  

(11-19-2016, 02:42 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  

(11-18-2016, 11:38 PM)Sparkydashforth Wrote:  Enjoyed this JM


quote='just mercedes' pid='216465' dateline='1473729562']
Make sure you visit ..............a rather travelogue-like  opening. Intentional? Does not work for me.
the Hall of a Thousand Pillars
in Chidambaram. Ask the monks
to take you to Shiva’s shrine..............leads this reader on to want to see more.
 
The curtain opens daily to show
empty space filled by an entity
without volume. It flows..................Maybe, but maybe a visitor might see and feel nothing special, you sem to assume a spiritual experience for everyone, when the opposite is probably more factual.

 as waves in a timeless dream;
unceasing, pure Akasa......................very deep, but again - supposition.

You know it already, as aether,
quintessence, Solomon’s Seal.
This is the time and place between,
where Shiva dances. Emptiness
is not the same as nothing. ..........Like last lines, makes me think of the phrase:
aloneness is not the same as alone, nor loneliness the same as being Alone.




I do like the poem, but it's speculative, and rather sure of itself.
Maybe a bit of personal doubt in the mix might make it more humanizing.





Thank you for reading and commenting. Akasa is the very opposite of humanizing. 

I suppose poetry must now conform with the rule of ignorance.

 
 
 

[/quote]

---

Just a thought JM

if you were to put yourself into the poem, and illustrate your own experiences
the work would be more convincing.

Just trying to help here.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thank you for trying to help. However, I am already in the poem, and it is illustrated with my own experience.

The Chidambaram temple represents Akasa...apparently there are four others in South India that cover off the other elements (googled).
Now the Akasa reference looks very apt.

Thanks all - I've edited to try to make it more accessible.