Hi, I'm curious which forum everyone prefers to post in. I usually favor mild because (1) I'm afraid of serious because it just somehow seems terrifying and (2) I find that I get a good mix of more experienced folk and noobs critiquing my work. I don't do novice, because I don't get as much feedback. Every once in a while, when I start to think more about preparing for publication, I'll post something in 'members only', but I feel like I don't get as many critiques there (presumably because the new people can't see it or haven't figured out how to enable the Arse).

I'd kind of like to start dabbling in serious, but I feel like that forum scares away the new people. Overall, I see posts in there not getting as many total crits. I know that, when I was newer (ok, I'm still kind of new), I felt like I couldn't comment in serious because I didn't have the experience and that was intimidating.

So, just curious how others feel about that and how you guys go about choosing a forum.

The posts in serious don't get so many crits because that's really not the reason why people post there. If I am critiquing a poem in the serious forum, I'll almost never comment immediately -- I'll read, re-read, let it sit for a couple of days, read again and then start a critique, because even if it appears that I'm only writing a few words, those words have to be well-chosen and a good solid serious critique generally takes upwards of half an hour to write. Anyone who posts in serious without first understanding and appreciating how much effort they're asking for, or expecting mad volumes of comment, should really consider not wasting people's time. Additionally, if you post in serious you need to be fairly confident that you can stand up to criticism, that you are secure enough in your writing to know which changes to make and which to set aside, and that you're prepared to actually workshop, which means that you don't think your poem is a precious and wonderful thing that dropped wholly formed and shining in the holy poetry garden of glory. Workshopping can be brutal but if you take it in the spirit it's intended, you always learn and it can be incredibly good fun. Exhaustingly good fun.

I rarely post in serious these days not because I don't value the feedback immensely, but because I'm mostly pretty comfortable that my poems aren't going to need massive overhauls so I'd rather throw them in miscellaneous where people can critique seriously if they want, but they know they're not obliged to. Personally I don't see the point of mild critique at all.

I think the forum you use is more a reflection of the level of reciprocal critique you're willing to give back. I think the forum divisions exist more to give a growth path to the critic.

I also find myself not posting much anymore, but when I do post it's usually in Serious.

(09-02-2016, 04:49 AM)Leanne Wrote:  your poem is a precious and wonderful thing that dropped wholly formed and shining in the holy poetry garden of glory.

Where is this garden? I absolutely must go there!!!


And Lizzie, I wish I could help you, but I think I only post in Fun anymore.  Partly because that's why I write, it's my happy place.  Partly because it seems like the least scary forum ... sort of the way no one can be angry at bubbles or kittens.  And even then, I usually can't seem to actually hit that "post" button most of the time. So I sit on my poems like a hen waiting for a nest full of boiled eggs to hatch.  

But for you, I think you have been getting lots of responses on your poetry, they've all been very successful whether you've posted in Misc or in Mild.  If you like having a variety of opinions, keep posting in mild, because not everyone has the time or courage to crit a poem in serious.  But if you really want it completely analyzed from the inside out by people who know what they're about, then put it in serious. Yes, you will have technically fewer people respond, but that's a situation where less is more.  You can't rate a poem's success by counting comments.  One "Leanne" comment on a poem would require you to work infinitely harder than one "Quix" comment (for example). But as Todd said, you have to be willing to return the favor, and you have to be wiling to actually take the lumps.    

I think whatever you are doing is working, your poetry is lovely.  

--Quix

i don't see the point of mild critique, either. i don't entirely see the point of any division, really. i mean, i kind of understand from the critic's point of view [time and effort and all that], but surely everyone wants their poem to get maximum critique [agreed with or not--let's not get into that again]. and it all seems to work backwards, anyway. because apparently, by the time a poem reaches 'serious' it should be honed, making the majority of critiques there either about typos or taste; or, they're just offering a more formal, sunday paper style, review [being of benefit to the critic more than the poet]. 'novice' is where the real fundamental transformations happen, where structural choices are made, and intentions decided. it seems to me that 'novice' is where the brutality of critique is at its most potent. it's in 'novice' where we are actually forced to confront the possibility that we may have to, god forbid, actually change that comma to a semi-colon: "but it's my baby! why! why would you do this to my baby! oh the humanity!"
to be sure, i think this is why quite a lot of new poets shy away from formally structured poetry. it isn't just that counting syllables and stresses is boring as fuck, but also there are relatively clear and definitive rules. and errors can only occur in a system. the more complex the system the greater the potential for error. and we can kinda live with the accusation of cliché concept, we can justify that sort of thing to ourselves any number of ways; but a wonky iamb and it's "fuck you poetry! you suck!"

personally, i don't write poetry enough now to have much of an issue about which forum to post in. it goes in fun or misc. both titles adequately describing my commitment, not only to the stuff i write, but also to poetry itself. my life has lately become detached and insubstantial. i feel nothing but the most superficial connection to the world around me. and it's difficult to fill a poem up when everything seems so empty.
however,, back in the day, i only posted in serious. like Leanne said, i'm pretty confident that i know enough, am aware, at least, of what i'm doing, not to need to make major changes. this doesn't mean i'm great or even any good [i am of course both of those things], it just means that i can usually pre-empt a lot of the criticism. . . or just don't care. one of those.

'Mild' is telling the critic - "Look, I'd like some crit on this, but don't bother busting your balls over it - a brief scan would be enough.  If you do more, then that's fine. Thanks for chipping in." 
With 'Serious' you're taking up people's time and there's an obligation to respond with edits.
So I think the division is legitimate, if perhaps the nomenclature susceptible to misinterpretation.
'Novice' is clearly for the 'hot sun  / round like a bun' type of poems.
'Miscellaneous' suggests 'don't waste your time critting. read and enjoy or do what you like'.
'Fun' is, well, fun.
'Members Only' is the best forum. My favourite. It's like that secret bathroom on the fifth floor that you can take a dump in without anybody noticing.

---

I think the idea is that if you post more oft, post in Mild to avoid wasting people's bandwidth in Serious.
If you seldom post and your poetry is reasonably ok, it's fine if you'd like to post in Serious.

I post in miscellaneous because it's ok to post an image with the poem (whether literal illustration
or/and integral part).   And my poems, now-a-days, always contain images (limericks, haiku,
and various doggerel excepted).

Three other things I like about miscellaneous (the first mentioned by Leanne): Critiquing is optional;
I don't incur an obligation to critique back; and, most important to me: The "on-topic" regulations
are relaxed. I've always found that the most insightful feedback I receive on my poems, often
tucked away, sometimes deeply subconscious (whose is in question), are the topics my poem elicits.
And, if not, it can really be fun -- truthfully, fun is the only reason I write poems. (Well, ok, bits
of therapy get thrown into the soup as well.)

iI post in mild or novice because i don't want people spending too much time on something I won't. But, that said.... maybe I'll need to investigate this whole "taking a dump on members only" section Achebe was referring too... Aren't all the sections members only?????



pooh, maybe instead of getting a feedback award, the admin could give out a "True Member" award that separates the good members from the peons of poetry.

(09-02-2016, 08:41 PM)Pdeathstar Wrote:  iI post in mild or novice because i don't want people spending too much time on something I won't. But, that said.... maybe I'll need to investigate this whole "taking a dump on members only" section Achebe was referring too...  Aren't all the sections members only?????

  Maybe we should create a forth critique forum named: "Fifth floor bathroom for taking a dump
  on naïve members". (Though, judging from some of the comments above, we already have
  such a forum: "Poems For Mild Critique".)

---

(09-02-2016, 08:41 PM)Pdeathstar Wrote:  iI post in mild or novice because i don't want people spending too much time on something I won't. But, that said.... maybe I'll need to investigate this whole "taking a dump on members only" section Achebe was referring too...  Aren't all the sections members only?????
pooh, maybe instead of getting a feedback award, the admin could give out a "True Member" award that separates the good members from the peons of poetry.

  Anyone, whether member or not, who associates her/himself with poetry is, by public consensus, a peon.

mild seems best, more open to variety even; prophet erthona spanked my praise poem in serious and that was the end of comments; i guess what one wants to be considered serious may not be taken so seriously if it doesn't meet the demands of the pen audience, which seems to value lyric most.

(09-02-2016, 11:26 PM)kolemath Wrote:  mild seems best, more open to variety even; prophet erthona spanked my praise poem in serious and that was the end of comments; i guess what one wants to be considered serious may not be taken so seriously if it doesn't meet the demands of the pen audience, which seems to value lyric most.

I don't know if I'd agree with that Kole. I don't think there's any fixed preference in serious. If anything, I think your sample size is too small to draw that conclusion. I'd stick my toe in the water a bit more before writing off serious.

Just a thought,

Todd

Mild is variety/ego-stroking/fast-action feedback for me, so if I want all those things, there -- while Serious is more slow-burning, "hallowed literary exposition" type stuff. From Misc, I can get both, plus some jokes, off topic discussions, and, my favorite, response poems, all in practically equal measure -- from Fun, again all of those, but way less opportunities to get random insight, so I'm starting to shy away from that. Also shying away from Novice, which I'm thinking is built more for new critics than for actual poetry discussion (so basically like term papers are when compared to theses). And Member's Only, well, if a publisher dun like the fact that this (afaik nonprofit) site got the stuff first, then tough luck. I think I've posted mostly in Mild, Serious, and Misc.

Ooh, and a note: Though there are no obligations in either misc or short poems, posting proper crit there per crit received just feels, I dunno, right, especially since what's posted short poems, I think, is supposed to get proper crit anyways, even if it's not a critical forum.

thanks for the push, todd. river's got it right.

(09-02-2016, 11:26 PM)kolemath Wrote:  which seems to value lyric most.

Funny -- we've had people who write mainly lyric stuff say that the pen is more about narrative. We've had form writers say we're all about free verse. We've had free versers say we're all about form. We've had hiphoppers say we're all about pop, and poppers hopping mad about the rap.

I don't care what form and style people write in, as long as they write it as best they can. That's pretty true of most of the members who stick around long enough to give everything a proper go.

And just a heads up: anyone who's ever intending to publish or do post-grad in poetry, and thinks our Serious forum is scary or tough or mean, really needs to re-think what they want to do.

(09-02-2016, 07:34 AM)Quixilated Wrote:  

(09-02-2016, 04:49 AM)Leanne Wrote:  your poem is a precious and wonderful thing that dropped wholly formed and shining in the holy poetry garden of glory.

Where is this garden? I absolutely must go there!!!

This must be the secret garden that's on the 5th floor.

---

(09-03-2016, 04:34 AM)Leanne Wrote:  And just a heads up: anyone who's ever intending to publish or do post-grad in poetry, and thinks our Serious forum is scary or tough or mean, really needs to re-think what they want to do.

Fair enough.

---

Thanks for the input everyone! I got a lot of good ideas from this thread! Yeah, I'll keep dabbling in the different forums until I find the right one, but I do understand what Achebe is saying that since I'm a prolific poster I should probably be selective with what I put in serious.

(09-03-2016, 06:12 PM)lizziep Wrote:  but I do understand what Achebe is saying that since I'm a prolific poster I should probably be selective with what I put in serious.

I didn't say that - what I said was that if someone's posting in 'Serious', there's an expectation that they're going to respond with edits. Otherwise, it looks like the OP doesn't really care. If you can actually post edits frequently, then I don't see a problem in posting in Serious.

As I see it, posting in any workshop brings with it the expectation that the OP will at least seriously consider the crit and decide if an edit would improve the poem. If you are just posting for reads Misc or Fun would be the way to go. Members Only is a leftover from when the site was google-able but the Arse wasn't. Since the site has been passworded it's become a catch-all, I don't use it but members are free to do what they wish.

Personally I love posting in Mild because I enjoy and value the less in-depth comments as well as a thorough line by line. I have found that members are willing to give serious crit there when the poem warrants it, and when I've asked for help with a piece even those who usally frequent Serious have always been willing to give me the benefit of their expertise.

When I have posted in Serious I really enjoyed the experience and the result was what I think is one of my better pieces but I have been given plenty to work with in Mild too. I have no plans for my poems, but I would suggest to anyone who does to take advantage of Serious.