it so happens i'm living with a little brown woman and she's living with a little white fat bastard. just to give some ballast for the question.

lets say the poem [if you haven't read it it doesn't matter] is racist [which i don't think it is] does or would that make it a bad poem?
who is to say it's about indian women? why not african or central american? or like the little brown woman that owns me; Filipino?
while the site doesn't openly advocate racism, sexism, child porn etc.; do we say the little brown women poem shouldn't be allowed? is it sexist/racist; it seems so to some. to me it's neither. i don't need a university dissertation on racism to know when a poem is just a poem.

discuss and i'm fine with being called out on this post.

What bothers me most about the expression is the contempt held by the writer for his subject.

'little' - a put-down, not a description. The term diminishes the person so described.

'brown' - if this poem is in praise of, why is brown used? Why not an alternative such as amber
bay
beige
bister
brick
bronze
buff
chestnut

chocolate
cinnamon
cocoa
coffee
copper
drab
dust
ecru

fawn
ginger
hazel
henna
khaki
mahogany
nut
ochre

puce
russet
rust
sepia
sorrel
tan
toast
umber

auburn
burnt sienna
snuff-colored
tawny
terra-cotta

The reason that a poet, with an extensive vocabulary, chose to use these words is the disdain in which the writer holds the subject.

I think this attitude is contemptible - to isolate on the grounds of gender and colour, and then use further negative descriptions.

(04-11-2016, 08:16 AM)billy Wrote:  it so happens i'm living with a little brown woman and she's living with a little white fat bastard. just to give some ballast for the question.

lets say the poem [if you haven't read it it doesn't matter] is racist [which i don't think it is] does or would that make it a bad poem?
who is to say it's about indian women? why not african or central american? or like the little brown woman that owns me; Filipino?
while the site doesn't openly advocate racism, sexism, child porn etc.; do we say the little brown women poem shouldn't be allowed? is it sexist/racist; it seems so to some. to me it's neither. i don't need a university dissertation on racism to know when a poem is just a poem.

discuss and i'm fine with being called out on this post.

I don't think any topics should be off limits for a poet. Nothing wrong with a racist or sexist poem or even a poem by a racist or sexist if it is a good poem.  I didn't think that poem was very good because I thought it was poorly written.  The narrator loves little brown women - over and over throughout the poem but the reader is never really given a reason to care.  Why wouldn't the narrator love little brown women in their many poses?  We may never know (or care).  Also, I thought it a poor use of repetition as it never opened other avenues of understanding or even built through reinforcement but rather just kept beating it into our skulss. 

Why not just say "I love little brown women" and skip the rest?

i don't know.

Billy - if a stranger spoke about your wife as 'a little brown woman' would you be pleased, or feel insulted on her behalf?

What about brown eyed girl?

I don't think the phrase "little brown women" is racist. There are little women with brown coloured skin, it's a fact. I've said things like, "There was a big black guy at the gym today who could bench 600!", and I don't think that's racist. What I would consider clearly racist or sexist would be making negative generalizations about all little brown women, wherein all little brown women are seen in a negative light by virtue of being a little brown women. I.e: little brown women are dirty whores.

There is something of a grey area in my mind, with "positive" generalizations. This is where Dale's poem fits; he is making generalizations about little brown women, but they are all positive - everyone should be more like these great people.

What could be considered racist/sexist about Dale's poem, though, is that all the things he says are good about little brown women "the way they cover their mouth when they laugh", "the way they dance" are in the grand scheme of things, insignificant. It could be taken to imply that these trivialities are the only good thing about little brown women. I personally do not believe that this is what Dale's poem was saying, but I can see how someone might. It's why some might consider it racist to say: "black men are good at basketball", while no one would consider it racist to say: "black men have incredible work ethic".


On to racist/sexist poems as a whole:

If I find a poem racist/sexist, even if it is written beautifully, I would still call it a "bad poem" from my perspective. That being said, racism and sexism are both subjective concepts when talking about poems, so I think it isn't pigpen's place to disallow poems that some might consider racist or sexist. Of course, there could be some exceptions - if a poem advocates violence against a certain race/gender, I don't think that should be allowed.

as always it would depend on the intent. if it were as a character in a poem similar to that i'd be fine with it. did dale speak about someone's wife in particular? i actually thought of an african woman though african americans see themselves as black not brown.
if some one said little brown women generically i'd agree my partner would be one of them.

i do remember when i first got here calling someone a cheeky monkey, i was reprimanded with "we're not monkeys" now i say it and it's accepted that different cultures are different in their word use. i would use the phrase outside the house though as i have no intention of upsetting people.

i read the poem without thinking of the poet, if for instance we knew an african shepherd herder had written the poem we'd all be going wow, what a great poem, but no it's a whitey that wrote it. if i thought a person was acting in a racist manner toward her i would obviously jump to her defense not that she isn't capable of defending herself.

(04-11-2016, 08:52 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  Billy - if a stranger spoke about your wife as 'a little brown woman' would you be pleased, or feel insulted on her behalf?

what about her?

(04-11-2016, 08:56 AM)Weeded Wrote:  What about brown eyed girl?

(04-11-2016, 09:36 AM)Wjames Wrote:  On to racist/sexist poems as a whole:

If I find a poem racist/sexist, even if it is written beautifully, I would still call it a "bad poem" from my perspective. That being said, racism and sexism are both subjective concepts when talking about poems, so I think it isn't pigpen's place to disallow poems that some might consider racist or sexist. Of course, there could be some exceptions - if a poem advocates violence against a certain race/gender, I don't think that should be allowed.

as a site if we do find a poem extremely offensive we do as a last resort deal with it one way or another. again it all depends on the intent. if it showed the suffering of a victim in order to cast shame on the attacker then i doubt we'd censor it. if it broke the law we would have to censor it. personally if such things were allowed by law we'd censor it

i'm posting as devil's advoacte in this particular instance though the view i put forward is my own. i really do think and understand other peoples point of views.

(04-11-2016, 10:05 AM)billy Wrote:  what about her?

(04-11-2016, 08:56 AM)Weeded Wrote:  What about brown eyed girl?

Is that song racist because he refers to her as brown eyed (context obviously implying shes brown skinned)?

how do we know what the poet thinks?

I thought the whole point of this thread was trying to figure that out

(04-11-2016, 08:39 AM)milo Wrote:  I don't think any topics should be off limits for a poet. Nothing wrong with a racist or sexist poem or even a poem by a racist or sexist if it is a good poem.   

i agree though most bigoted poetry doesn't hold water.

i disagree that the poem isn't well written. i think it is technically solid. a silly little poem, trivial, a cliche, a bit boring [if not for the subject], but most poetry is boring anyway.

regardless, the racism thing is minimal, and i don't consider the term 'brown women' to be racist, at least not in a universal-context sort of way. brown skinned women is preferable, though. but the sexism! my god, 'little women'? seriously? 'i love little women' then 'i love little brown women'? see, to me it just sounds condescending as fuck. if i were a brown skinned woman i would be like 'get ta fuck, you patronising cunt!' [i have two brown skinned daughters, and i am certain they wouldn't appreciate this appellation being applied to them - and i certainly wouldn't appreciate anyone talking about them like that either.]
i want to say more, but i am tired, and i have work in the morning.



i definitely don't think the poem should be censored, though. because that is the problem with freedom of speech; once something gets banned or censored, you have to then start defending freedom of speech, which is boring; instead of, what you would like to be doing, using it.

sorry, it's about censorship to some extent and thinking we know how a certain poets mind works.
which in turn would dispel the phrase don't comment on the poet. [wouldn't it?]

(04-11-2016, 10:17 AM)Weeded Wrote:  I thought the whole point of this thread was trying to figure that out

Yeah, you right.

I just saw a whole lotta "I think this poem is this and that," then I read the comment on use of the word 'brown' implying a racist context and it reminded me of that song cuz its so similar (Little Brown Women/Brown Eyed Girl).

That said I dont think censorship should be an option, ever. This ain't Nazi.Germany... or is it 

(04-11-2016, 10:20 AM)billy Wrote:  sorry, it's about censorship to some extent and thinking we know how a certain poets mind works.
which in turn would dispel the phrase don't comment on the poet. [wouldn't it?]

(04-11-2016, 10:17 AM)Weeded Wrote:  I thought the whole point of this thread was trying to figure that out

that's the thing, he isn't talking about anyone's daughter, i have asian grand kids. does this poem pertain to their lives,; of course not. the poem is literal as far as i can make out and speaks of little brown woman. it's sad if we can't call a spade a spade sometimes it's just a cigar.

(04-11-2016, 10:18 AM)shemthepenman Wrote:  i disagree that the poem isn't well written. i think it is technically solid. a silly little poem, trivial, a cliche, a bit boring [if not for the subject], but most poetry is boring anyway.

regardless, the racism thing is minimal, and i don't consider the term 'brown women' to be racist, at least not in a universal-context sort of way. brown skinned women is preferable, though. but the sexism! my god, 'little women'? seriously? 'i love little women' then 'i love little brown women'? see, to me it just sounds condescending as fuck. if i were a brown skinned woman i would be like 'get ta fuck, you patronising cunt!' [i have two brown skinned daughters, and i am certain they wouldn't appreciate this appellation being applied to them - and i certainly would appreciate anyone talking about them like that either.]
i want to say more, but i am tired, and i have work in the morning.



i definitely don't think the poem should be censored, though. because that is the problem with freedom of speech; once something gets banned or censored, you have to then start defending freedom of speech, which is boring; instead of, what you would like to be doing, using it.

Red Hot Chili Peppers - Sexy Mexican Maid...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2dn12a...rics_music

My best friend is a little brown woman. (Mexican) And a big fan of The Red Hot Chile Peppers. Go figure. 
I found the poem to be tender beyond its percieved nomenclature. And what if a poet chooses a Narator that is both sexist and racist? 
Paul

I took little as short in height, not in spirit or intelligence. I took brown as a fact, some people are, it didn't bring up any distasteful connotation for me.