And yet I thought I had given up on this thread again. But it's meandering into different areas. Confessional of sorts follows

So being a new member here, I hope I haven't been bugging folks; indeed, this is the longest I have ever been active in an internet forum of any kind. It's not a joke when I say that it's because I generally live in real life, not on the internet. I have no cable TV, facebook, twitter, etc but I have been more computer savvy than most since the 80's when I was playing with unix machines etc. The internet, especially the forums, are filled with people who have really stopped thinking and don't interact in correct social ways; just pushing pieces of dogma back and forth, getting angrier and angrier. I get tired of that fast.

Here that is not the case. However I do miss what it's like to workshop a poem in real life, reading it, hearing some people respond one way while others a different way. I feel I have gotten some very real support and that people have appreciated my attempts to help their writing get better. I see folks that take things in a crazy way (taking crits on their poems as ad hominem for example) drifting away quickly. Sometimes amusingly so. Sometimes ... very quickly....

Things come in waves, and I suspect if you have been doing this a while you could likely go back to last year or 2 and see if you were this disaffected as well in late winter, only to have the crits/forums/people improve later. More people come in crops, some better some not so much.

Thanks for putting up with me. Back to real life.

It's late summer here 

It's definitely NOT annoying when people interact here.  You are very welcome.

@cidermaid:

I know I personally could do better at providing more criit. I often read a piece, start a crit in my head, tell myself I'll come back after a few more reads but if the piece has some crit I often don't take the time. I also haven't done a search for zero posts in a while, thanks for the reminder.

I know I've become reluctant to post on a first thread seeing so many 4-posters, the three for membership and the one poem. So often they never comment again, no thanks and no furthur crit. This is not an excuse, it wouldn't take that much time, I'm just trying to examine why I don't make more effort to comment, I surely read everything.

I want to thank our newer members who post critiques and comments so frequently. I feel like you keep the site afloat when older members get a bit burnt out. You know who you are and you are greatly appreciated.

The rest of us could do a bit more, thanks for comment, AJ, good points. I look forward to your more frequent posts.  

@achebe
1a: When the op stays involved (thanks posters, discusses points and edits) the piece stays on Page one. When the OP sits back and just reads the crit (or not) it sinks. I think that's fine.

The issue of a newb bumping an old thread is a rough one. There's no rule not to crit an old poem and it's usually a newb who sees no difference yet between a site where all comments are fine and an active workshop. If the post is valid there's no reason not to approve it. It doesn't happen too often although those damn eggs seem to catch people's attention.

Maybe we can add something to the welcome letter suggesting they crit threads posted within the last few months, or maybe the last month. It's hard to be more demanding than we already are. Something to think about.

Writer's block is what happens when you piss off the muse. Leanne's muse is always there, so she doesn't really realize what it is like to have the muse desert you...this time. So fuck you Leanne, that little bit of panic when inspiration seemed not to be there was when the muse had withdrawn. Get over your sexism.

Although I am very glad for you that you got it back so easily, some people go for years without it returning and some just kill themselves. As you can see, it doesn't matter how much detritus one packs into one's noodle, if the internal spark is missing it comes to nothing. Most people have no internal spark.

And this isn't aimed at Leanne.

Anyone who thinks they write inspired poetry solely on their won resources is a damn fool. Arrogance and self-centeredness is the quickest way to a writer's block that I know.  

Some things you shouldn't fuck with.

dale

_______________________________________________________________________________

Midwife
 
Asleep, deep in the twilight part of night, sometimes
I’ll be awakened by a sleepless poem pacing in my mind.
Knowing that fighting is pointless I'll eventually concede,
give in, get up and write it down, vowing, "Just this one last time!"
Only to find the lines already formed, cadence set, as well as rhyme.
Though late and despite myself, this nascent being never hesitates
in fear: for like a babe full formed does this poem appear.
No part had I in its gestation, nor did it need me to create;
it need only barrow of me that small a priori part of mind.
Thus relegated, I play my role as midwife and womb surrogate;
an easy labor for this birth had been pre-defined.
Birthed from this mental wasteland a newly emanate light
to confound the drowsy darkness and conquer the sleeping night.
 
 erthona
©2008 revised 2016

Huh, had you pegged in New Orleans, not Australia. Go figure.

great thread. Tom was right. It was poetry from the start. But I agree with Dale too. Fuck you and your talent. The muse goes AWOL whenever she likes. It's part of the process- trying to produce in her absence. In my experience, she gets jealous quick, and returns to clean house. What do I care? I have a sock sonnet and a hearty breakfast of words.
Sated,
Paul

Quote:"No part had I in its gestation, nor did it need me to create"

You have no idea how many times teenagers have tried to tell me this same thing

Quote:Huh, had you pegged in New Orleans, not Australia. Go figure.

If I tried for a million years I don't think I could work out a reason for this

(03-06-2016, 11:04 PM)ellajam Wrote:  @achebe
1a: When the op stays involved (thanks posters, discusses points and edits) the piece stays on Page one. When the OP sits back and just reads the crit (or not) it sinks. I think that's fine.

What if the post gets no replies, or only one? The OP can either bump it barenaked, or reply to bump it up. Now the post is seen as having '2 replies' against it. An altruistic workshopper will now see that the post has 2 replies against it on the forum landing page, and turn away their attention instead to a post showing '0'. The OP gets a raw deal.
Having a mechanism for tracking posts with <3 crits (as opposed to crits + replies) will address such a (not so uncommon) scenario.

(03-07-2016, 06:55 AM)Achebe Wrote:  

(03-06-2016, 11:04 PM)ellajam Wrote:  @achebe
1a: When the op stays involved (thanks posters, discusses points and edits) the piece stays on Page one. When the OP sits back and just reads the crit (or not) it sinks. I think that's fine.

What if the post gets no replies, or only one? The OP can either bump it barenaked, or reply to bump it up. Now the post is seen as having '2 replies' against it. An altruistic workshopper will now see that the post has 2 replies against it on the forum landing page, and turn away their attention instead to a post showing '0'. The OP gets a raw deal.
Having a mechanism for tracking posts with <3 crits (as opposed to crits + replies) will address such a (not so uncommon) scenario.

I think this is a good idea for those threads to show up on a little list on the right. Right now the way to find them is to click on the forum title and sort by replies and time period on the bottom strip. It works well but is not in your face the way your suggestion would be. Maybe it's something we could do.

Quote: Cidermaid wrote:
Some poems get loads of attention and excellent feedback and some get only the most superficial of comments with no real meat for the poet to work with. 

I've been thinking about this and I think part of the problem is from members who are reluctant to move out of Novice. Their poetry improves but the threads become practice grounds for the many posters who just offer the required first three, often the only three they've ever written. For the meaty critique that they deserve as active members they really need to put their poems up at least in Mild.

I think also a fair number of people post in Novice because they see that's where the most action is and therefore that's the place where they're more likely to get attention. Of course that's ignoring the fact that if so many people weren't posting in Novice and instead posted in other forums, those other forums would also see more action, but I don't think that everyone necessarily has the capacity to think that through.

If you've posted in other forums, received feedback and managed to survive but for some reason you return to Novice, I think you need to ask yourself why. Is that really the forum you think you should be posting in, is it the attention, or is it because you just can't handle any tougher critique?

If you're not up for critique but just want to share, and you don't think you're capable of critiquing anyone else, you've got to question why you're even here.

(03-07-2016, 05:35 PM)Leanne Wrote:  I think also a fair number of people post in Novice because they see that's where the most action is and therefore that's the place where they're more likely to get attention.  Of course that's ignoring the fact that if so many people weren't posting in Novice and instead posted in other forums, those other forums would also see more action, but I don't think that everyone necessarily has the capacity to think that through.

If you've posted in other forums, received feedback and managed to survive but for some reason you return to Novice, I think you need to ask yourself why.  Is that really the forum you think you should be posting in, is it the attention, or is it because you just can't handle any tougher critique?  

If you're not up for critique but just want to share, and you don't think you're capable of critiquing anyone else, you've got to question why you're even here.

As all know, I steer clear of "novice" not through elitism but because the kind of crit in Serious MUST steer the writer towards change...workshopping, if you will. In "novice" there will always be an element of trepidation with just a deep and forlorn hope that PRAISE may follow. Yukkkkk.
I have but one suggestion. As a reward for "good" poetry posted in "novice" the mods should unilaterally move pieces in to Serious if the piece seems worthy...with an explanation, of course.
That should be interesting.
Best to everyone (and I mean everyone)
Tom

We have tried that on occasion... the sad news is, there are so few occasions. Those that have accepted the move generally accept the extra critique well also, and we're rarely disappointed by them.

One doesn't have to post in Serious to be welcome as a good member, however. Just don't keep paddling in the shallow pool -- there might not be any sharks in there, but there's not much else to discover either. And people piss in it.

(03-06-2016, 06:03 PM)Leanne Wrote:  There are few things that disappoint me and all the other mods/admins more than the members who take so much more than they give -- but we're simple creatures, as you know, and it doesn't take much for us to be turned around.

Perhaps we should kick off more with the way that some people use the site. It could be directly to individuals discreetly pointing out that their habits don't go unnoticed or it could be a general 'What the fuck you playing at?' message sent out. Although I know that the second of those choices is done now and then, but I don't think that the people who turn up occasionally and give one half-hearted cliched critique before presenting their poem to the world are the kind of people who read 'other' posts elsewhere on the site and therefore may be blissfully unaware that they are pissing people off. In theory they are following the rules, the fact that it is the bare minimum required may be neither here nor there to them whereas to others like myself it seems like a pure piss take. Perhaps the rule should be 3 critiques for every time you post a poem, but then that might just create 'people who turn up occasionally and give three half-hearted cliched critiques before presenting their poem to the world', and then that would clutter the site up.
Personally I've wanted to kick off a few times with some people but ultimately I don't want to be banned and that's more important. I stopped posting poems in the critique forums, I've only posted 3 in 2 and a half years and one of them got nothing so I became quite disheartened and stuck to the other forums and critiquing others poems as best I could. In fact I got to the point where I really enjoyed critiquing and I get a buzz out of it. But every now and again I get pissed off when I see the same old 'YOO HOO - 1 critique - "Look at my poem!!" - YOO HOO' patterns emerging. Don't get me wrong there are some excellent new members who occasionally turn up and play the game. How come some folk just 'get it' and take part the way that makes sense? How come others don't? I wish I could figure it out.
Give me a baseball bat (metaphorical of coarse) and a nod and I'll silently go about my business ruthlessly... 

(03-06-2016, 11:04 PM)ellajam Wrote:  @cidermaid:

I know I personally could do better at providing more criit. I often read a piece, start a crit in my head, tell myself I'll come back after a few more reads but if the piece has some crit I often don't take the time. I also haven't done a search for zero posts in a while, thanks for the reminder.

I am also guilty of this... And also I used to check for for threads with zero posts and I've stopped doing it. Damn, have I become bitter and cynical. Thanks for the reminder reminder.

(03-06-2016, 11:04 PM)ellajam Wrote:  I know I've become reluctant to post on a first thread seeing so many 4-posters 

Hmmm not sure about the term '4-posters', makes them sound like luxurious beds... Although, they do partake in what could be seen as '4-play' and then piss off, presumably after they have been satisfied. Tick tick BANG!!

(03-07-2016, 08:42 AM)ellajam Wrote:  I've been thinking about this and I think part of the problem is from members who are reluctant to move out of Novice. Their poetry improves but the threads become practice grounds for the many posters who just offer the required first three, often the only three they've ever written. For the meaty critique that they deserve as active members they really need to put their poems up at least in Mild.

Is this possibly due to the title of the 'Novice' forum? The other two forums indicate a level of critique that is required whereas the novice forum could be read as indicating the level of poet that is to post in there. I get the feeling that a lot of poets who turn up here would mostly start by posting in the novice forum out of respect for the site. I know that's what I initially did (also I was a rubbish poet, oh how the times have changed   ). I often see poems in the novice forum that I want to give more in depth critique too but I can't because of the forum. I usually say to the poet that I wish their poem was in a different forum so I expand my critique more. I'm not entirely sure if newbies fully comprehend this and perhaps some leave because they don't feel as though they are getting enough feedback. Perhaps a change to the title of the forum or a relaxation of the strictness of giving brief feedback in the novice forum, I know it isn't really strict but I've often had gentle reminders of which forum I'm critiquing in and as you can see from this reply I have serious problems in keeping my replies brief.

Just some thoughts...

Some good points Mark and as for you and Ella being guilty of not providing enough crit...no way you are def among the stars of shining example on the site in terms of what you give.
I have also been thinking about the different forums and the points you rise about some posting here to be respectful is valid I think.  I am wondering if there could be an emotion button or something where a poster could indicate the desire for deeper crit if others wish to.  I know that I mostly post in the lower levels when I feel that the poem is only in a really rough or unworked stage of write and this is how I tend to think of the difference between the forums.  (as well as for novice and mid term poets).  
Not sure if the idea of a "More please button" could work for poets who want to welcome any level of crit but don't want the shame of placing something crappy and thus unworthy in the higher levels. Thought it was worth a mention.  (Although scrap that name, certain members will have a field day with it )

(03-07-2016, 08:00 PM)cidermaid Wrote:  Some good points Mark and as for you and Ella being guilty of not providing enough crit...no way you are def among the stars of shining example on the site in terms of what you give.
I have also been thinking about the different forums and the points you rise about some posting here to be respectful is valid I think.  I am wondering if there could be an emotion button or something where a poster could indicate the desire for deeper crit if others wish to.  I know that I mostly post in the lower levels when I feel that the poem is only in a really rough or unworked stage of write and this is how I tend to think of the difference between the forums.  (as well as for novice and mid term poets).  
Not sure if the idea of a "More please button" could work for poets who want to welcome any level of crit but don't want the shame of placing something crappy and thus unworthy in the higher levels. Thought it was worth a mention.  (Although scrap that name, certain members will have a field day with it )

My experience at the Pigpen:

I posted my first one or two in Novice and when it was suggested that the poem might not be at novice level I responded that I was a novice at editting and critiquing. Even there, when I actively engaged with posters I was able to get very useful suggestions.

I moved into what has become my favorite place, Mild. On the occasion when it was suggested the poem belonged in Serious my response was that I cherish the crit with only one or two suggestions as much as the thorough critique, both have their value and I don't want to miss out on the input from members who aren't inclined to post critique in Serious. Rather than an emoticon, I wouldn't be adverse to an OP that says "all levels of critique are welcomed", but I have to say I have picked that up at another site where there are no divisions and have never found it necessary here.

I've been known to send a PM request for serious help for a poem posted in Mild and have never had anyone refuse. What I probably should do is repost the poem in Serious after my initial edits. hhmmm.

Oddly, although I still consider myself a novice in forms, I chose to put a sonnet in Serious because I knew it needed the input it would get there. I have to say that poem reached a place most of my other work doesn't get to. There too I found that I was able to get the most from the site by actively engaging members in discussion of the points brought up.

So my suggestion for new members is to move quickly out of novice and if the crit is past the level you can understand just ask for further explanation. And what I need to consider for myself also, feel free to move the poem through the levels of crit when you feel the poem needs more than you are getting. And don't run screaming, , work to make use of serious critique.

I still feel that if each of us takes the time for just a few more critiques a week across all workshops the site would improve. Now, instead of continuing to think about myself I guess I should go read and comment on some poems.

Ever felt like this?

Leanne,

When I first read this post and the title that wanted an answer to a specific question I went all 'human' and forgot that there was a question in the title. What could I possibly say that would make sense? Who am I to try and give advice? I can't even write poetry, so what do I say? Oh, don't worry it will get better? Watch a sunrise? Think of the children in Africa?

Have I ever felt like this?

Not about poetry, but about the one single thing that I thought defined me, playing guitar and creating music.
My world also didn't fall apart, I refused to let it, but not in a healthy way. Like the death of a friend that instead of accepting and being sad about I just carried on as normal as I could and if the thought crept into my mind I would shift it, I would shift me. In the space of about two weeks I went from playing guitar 10 hours a day to nothing, I couldn't even pick the guitar up and force myself to play. I kept on thinking that next week would be back to normal no problem, but it wasn't. I still listened avidly to guitar music and read about it, the techniques of the blues legends that I love. I worked out different tunings that I knew would work and be interesting and wrote blog articles about certain guitarists, all in all I was doing exactly the same as what you called "staying ahead of the game".

But really, when I gave it slightly more attention than the many brief thoughts that I had slapped down as quick as they had rose up, it fucked my head up because I knew I couldn't explain it. It made no sense whatsoever. Guitar didn't define me, music didn't define me, they were me. They realigned everything that the world had muddled, they walked with me down the street, they were the way I projected any kind of emotions and they dealt with it all, they accompanied it all, it was always perfect.

And still it fucked my head up and still it made no sense and still doesn't. It lasted two years or so and then gradually things changed back again. The thing that baffles me the most is that it is baffling. Depressed? I don't think so. Did I fall out of love with it? No, I still loved it as much as I always did, I just didn't/couldn't play and without it I didn't feel as though I was me anymore, I didn't feel human.

I never really told anyone. How could it possibly make sense or be relevant to anyone. I could never be able to express what it meant to me and how totally and utterly helpless I felt... Oh, boo fucking hoo, you don't play guitar anymore. It'll get better. Think of the children in Africa... There are only so many times that you can metaphorically throw people out of a window before everyone starts asking to meet in a field, so I just didn't tell anyone. But it still fucked me up bad, because it was so inexplicable.

I'd love to be able say something soothing and magical that will fix it all. Inhale some stardust and listen to the ocean roar three times a day before meals and more than likely nothing will change. Perhaps it is meant to mess your head up, ultimately I think that no time is wasted. A best friend dying can have as much effect on my guitar playing and music as a year of regular methodical practice and playing, its just not always obvious until much later.

Mark

^^^wowee, back on topic. Thanks for posting it, Mark. Scary but interesting. I let shit go all the time so I can't relate, then again I have no major talent. Maybe this will touch upon something for Leanne. Very generous post.

the art then [for you] is not to be human

aside from the smart arsed remark. i think i understand you.; not that i could ever match your skills but life seems to have taken me over. i just can't be arsed to write a poem. i seem to remember feeling this way years ago and got out of it by forcing myself to scribble, the end product as usual wasn't pretty but it was a product of sorts. i am amazed that someone with your ability feels as you do but i think it just goes to prove the universe is fair. now you have posted this thread i shall, when i get home, write at least one poem a day mainly shorts and one reasonably long poem a week. they like my other attempts won't be good but they will be poetry [of sorts] thanks for the inspiration. i'm sure once you read my stuff, you'll be inspired to show me up

(03-05-2016, 12:13 PM)Leanne Wrote:  It is less than two months since I last swore off writing poems.  I still have not written a poem, unless you count a couple of rude limericks and a rather angry verse that repeated the word "fuck" several times but didn't really say much else.  So, no poems.  The world has not fallen apart.

 
But I have.  I've still carried on life much as always, making sure that I get information from myriad sources on as many subjects as possible to stay informed and ahead of the game if possible -- but without poetry, all of these things have been dumped into my brain with no way to download them.  Poetry, I now realise, was my way of making sense of the world and in its absence, I have lost myself beneath piles of unsorted horrors, injustices, hypocrisies and the occasional kitten video.
 
In the absence of poetry, I have found excuses.  I have become the whiny, annoying person who can't help undermining all the goodness in others because I can't see it in myself.  I have actively sought reasons to avoid anything that might make my life easier, or anything that seems remotely creative because I mistakenly conflated my ability to write poetry with my underlying creativity and thought I needed to turn my back on both.  My anxiety has increased and my empathy has been reduced to virtually nothing.  
 
And so today I sit and write this with a wish that I had a poem to fix it all, and realise that the well is too muddled with pollutants to yield anything pure.  All I have are disconnected phrases and an overwhelming sense of cliche.
 
This morning I realised that to be human, I need poetry -- and it's gone.

From my blog

have you ever done a poem while have a shit?

(03-06-2016, 06:13 AM)Leanne Wrote:  At the end of the day, this is not intended as a thread about me.  I will cheer myself up or I won't, and the world will go on.  This is about you:  what makes you question yourself?  What does poetry really mean to you and to your world?  Is it art or just another method of jerking off?  

And when you jerk off, is milo's picture in front of you?