Edit 1 - aschueler, Weeded, Paul, AJ, Billy
children
laughing -
calling the man a spacca

Original
children
laughing -
at the "spacca"

Oh well, this is the first time that I've ever bumped a thread anywhere and I really wish I didn't have to because I usually think 'bumping' is cheeky as fuck... But anyway this poem has troubled me somewhat ever since I put it in. I'm not bumping it because it got no comments, I can deal with that, it's happened before. I'm bumping it because it got no comments combined with its content which worry me that it may have been misunderstood as blatantly offensive. That wouldn't normally bother me either usually unless it is this subject, it is important for me that I clarify.

I also understand that the word 'spacca/spacka' may not be in other cultures or if it is it has an entirely different meaning that is not offensive. In Britain it is highly offensive, some would possibly consider it the most offensive term possible, according to some list I found it is allegedly the second most offensive term behind 'retard'. I know that in America the word 'spaz' is perceived very differently from how it is perceived in Britain. It is a derivative of 'spacca' which itself is a derivative of 'spastic' which is a technically correct term and at one time was used as the medical description of a condition and 'The Spastics Society' was the name of the charity that raised money for said people. Now 'spastic' is considered an offensive insult. In America 'spaz' is considered to mean a clumsy person or clumsiness in general and has not connotations of people with disabilities. Tiger Woods once used it to describe his golf playing at a particular tournament and it was once used in Friends by Rachel. Both times Britain (British Press) went into apoplectic rage.

The poem,

children
laughing -
at the "spacca"

I can understand how the people who are familiar with the word 'spacca' in it's British sense may have read this and thought 'ignorant offensive bastard/twat' and many other words in between. I showed it to one of my friends and his initial reaction was extreme shock and disbelief. I then made the mistake of explaining my thinking behind the poem instead of waiting to see whether he was willing to give it a chance and see what else was in there. The same mistake that I am about to do again here, although it's different this time. In basic terms I wanted the beautifully innocent and happy image of children laughing absolutely obliterated and turned on its head by the contrast with what they are laughing at, a person with cerebral palsy. The beautiful image was to become extremely pitiful and sad and also 'shocking'. I toyed for ages over whether I should use speech marks, more in the hope that they would tell the reader it wasn't the author who was referring to a disabled person as a 'spacca'. Because of this I also toyed with the idea having 'children laughing and shouting - at the "spacca" to give justification for the use of speech marks, 'children laughing' doesn't seem to give this justification. Ultimately 'shouting' had too much of aggressive connection that messed up the pure innocence image I was wanting to find.
It shocks me when I read it and I wrote the bloody thing, in some ways I hate it, although I do think it is very good, it achieves what I wanted it to achieve and it has the potential to be far more powerful than anything I've ever wrote simply because of the subject. It's normal for poems to be misunderstood sometimes, but the consequences of this one being misunderstood led to a conclusion that I was not happy with. If there had been comments I would of had the space to say my bit. I never considered the possibility that it would sail gradually into the distance leaving me with not the slightest clue as to how it was perceived. With any other poem I've wrote that would be fine, but this one is different.

This whole thread should be shifted elsewhere to a discussion forum or anywhere appropriate, I don't mind. It would be interesting to hear if I'm right about my perception about American culture and its usage of the connected word, or any other cultures that may have yet again another view. Most of my info was gathered from the net for the American perception so it may be partly correct but probably not totally.
What makes a word offensive, empowering? I know how Britain managed to turn 'spastic' into an extremely offensive word. After one children's factual television show in the early 80's that featured a man with cerebral palsy called 'Joey' which is also classed as an offensive term when used in certain context. From that one show, schoolchildren and school playgrounds seem to have done the rest of the work to spread the word. My era and my peers, we did it. Children can be horribly cruel. When I was younger and my Dad was alive he had cerebral palsy and it was very obvious physically in a pronounced way and everywhere he went he was called the most horrible names by all types of people but especially kids. 
All part of the reason of why it was important for me to sort this poem out today, been wanting to do it for weeks.

If you managed to get this far, (I know it is a lot to read), thank you.

Mark

Tough one. From the US, I never would have caught that. If I had, yes, it would have come across fairly callous if you had used retard or spaz. I googled it and first thing that popped up was a restaurant in California.

So, you didn't mean that. And to shift its meaning ... in few words.... I am not sure. But maybe I could throw some tools you can try / alter as you see fit.

And I think the quotes don't help, it confused me more.


Joy --

crooked smile ---

In spite of spacca (awkward)


Spacca kids
Smile, joy. (Etc, you get the idea)

Not sure if this helps, hopefully not an inappropriate response.

Mark,
This is my first time reading this, but being that it's not much to digest (five words) I'll try and have a go at what you're asking.

The first thing I'd change is the title; it feels kind of wasted (especially if this piece is meaningful to you) to entitle it simply with the date it was shared (kinda reminds me of a poem titled "poem one" or somethin like that). Perhaps you have your reasons but I'm not seeing any, personally.

And being an American thats spent three years in England, I'd imagine I possibly have a bit more to offer you in terms of this particular discussion, but to be honest I've never heard the term 'spacca.' That said, it seems the most offensive word I learned in my travels (and this goes for both countries) is 'cunt.' Something about calling someone a 'cunt' just makes me cringe if used improperly, and furious is used properly(toward me). Maybe your perception of 'spacca' being so offensive is more of a personal thing? I know this is also subcultural, but in the hip-hop community 'spaz' specifically is actually quite the compliment (i.e. "Did you hear that dude? He hella spazzed on that track"), but again to call someone with cerebral palsy a spaz(spacca) is just fucked up. Hmm, maybe make it more apparent that the children are mocking someone with a mental condition? If your friend understood right away though that may not be the issue.

Children are by far the cruelest in terms of verbal animosity-- that said I wouldn't be afraid to get even nastier, children have no filter, so why should you in this one? Hehe just my opinion though. And honestly, I think the British (not sure bout Scots) have far more nicer children than the States. So if you were worried about international appeal, well to me thats all the more reason to get even nastier.

Also, Americans tend to be a bit uh, how do I put this lightly... Stupider? Especially at the age of a young child. I believe our educational system is to blame, America seems set on a curriculum that focuses on glorifying the country and seems more of a brainwashing system than an educational system (ope, here comes my conspiracy theories...). England (again not sure bout Scotland but I'd imagine theyre pretty similar) is all about cramming as much knowledge into a childs brain and making them realize they're not children at an early age, I mean you got 16 year olds learning what 18-21 year olds over here are learning. That said, in a poem of five words, where the main focus/meaning/power is dependent on the word 'spacca' might be where the effect becomes lost.

What makes a word offensive/empowering? In reflection of what I just wrote, I'd have to go with context. I had no idea someone with a mental condition was being described in this one, yet I also had no idea what spacca meant either. But even in this context, 'laughing' sounds a bit playful (as children are, which helps to the innocence you're going for). You also have 'children laughing at the "spacca"' which kinda reads like the speaker him/herself is calling the person a 'spacca.' The quotes kinda leave me a bit more confused too, personally. 

A "fun" game the children used to play when I lived in Louisiana was to pick on one child to the point he/she literally breaks down to tears or goes crazy and starts fighting. This sometimes would take up the whole recess, sometimes it would take days, so not one insult, but many were thrown at the victim (children with mental conditions were not excluded). Maybe 'spacca' isnt enough?

Anyway, I hope this helps, and I hope you're not offended with my comparing England to Scotland. They seemed culturally pretty similar but I've only been to Edinburgh so I wouldn't truly know. Thanks for bumping this was cool to run into,
mike

(02-24-2016, 07:38 AM)ambrosial revelation Wrote:  Oh well, this is the first time that I've ever bumped a thread anywhere and I really wish I didn't have to because I usually think 'bumping' is cheeky as fuck... But anyway this poem has troubled me somewhat ever since I put it in. I'm not bumping it because it got no comments, I can deal with that, it's happened before. I'm bumping it because it got no comments combined with its content which worry me that it may have been misunderstood as blatantly offensive. That wouldn't normally bother me either usually unless it is this subject, it is important for me that I clarify.

I also understand that the word 'spacca/spacka' may not be in other cultures or if it is it has an entirely different meaning that is not offensive. In Britain it is highly offensive, some would possibly consider it the most offensive term possible, according to some list I found it is allegedly the second most offensive term behind 'retard'. I know that in America the word 'spaz' is perceived very differently from how it is perceived in Britain. It is a derivative of 'spacca' which itself is a derivative of 'spastic' which is a technically correct term and at one time was used as the medical description of a condition and 'The Spastics Society' was the name of the charity that raised money for said people. Now 'spastic' is considered an offensive insult. In America 'spaz' is considered to mean a clumsy person or clumsiness in general and has not connotations of people with disabilities. Tiger Woods once used it to describe his golf playing at a particular tournament and it was once used in Friends by Rachel. Both times Britain (British Press) went into apoplectic rage.

The poem,

children
laughing -
at the "spacca"

I can understand how the people who are familiar with the word 'spacca' in it's British sense may have read this and thought 'ignorant offensive bastard/twat' and many other words in between. I showed it to one of my friends and his initial reaction was extreme shock and disbelief. I then made the mistake of explaining my thinking behind the poem instead of waiting to see whether he was willing to give it a chance and see what else was in there. The same mistake that I am about to do again here, although it's different this time. In basic terms I wanted the beautifully innocent and happy image of children laughing absolutely obliterated and turned on its head by the contrast with what they are laughing at, a person with cerebral palsy. The beautiful image was to become extremely pitiful and sad and also 'shocking'. I toyed for ages over whether I should use speech marks, more in the hope that they would tell the reader it wasn't the author who was referring to a disabled person as a 'spacca'. Because of this I also toyed with the idea having 'children laughing and shouting - at the "spacca" to give justification for the use of speech marks, 'children laughing' doesn't seem to give this justification. Ultimately 'shouting' had too much of aggressive connection that messed up the pure innocence image I was wanting to find.
It shocks me when I read it and I wrote the bloody thing, in some ways I hate it, although I do think it is very good, it achieves what I wanted it to achieve and it has the potential to be far more powerful than anything I've ever wrote simply because of the subject. It's normal for poems to be misunderstood sometimes, but the consequences of this one being misunderstood led to a conclusion that I was not happy with. If there had been comments I would of had the space to say my bit. I never considered the possibility that it would sail gradually into the distance leaving me with not the slightest clue as to how it was perceived. With any other poem I've wrote that would be fine, but this one is different.

This whole thread should be shifted elsewhere to a discussion forum or anywhere appropriate, I don't mind. It would be interesting to hear if I'm right about my perception about American culture and its usage of the connected word, or any other cultures that may have yet again another view. Most of my info was gathered from the net for the American perception so it may be partly correct but probably not totally.
What makes a word offensive, empowering? I know how Britain managed to turn 'spastic' into an extremely offensive word. After one children's factual television show in the early 80's that featured a man with cerebral palsy called 'Joey' which is also classed as an offensive term when used in certain context. From that one show, schoolchildren and school playgrounds seem to have done the rest of the work to spread the word. My era and my peers, we did it. Children can be horribly cruel. When I was younger and my Dad was alive he had cerebral palsy and it was very obvious physically in a pronounced way and everywhere he went he was called the most horrible names by all types of people but especially kids. 
All part of the reason of why it was important for me to sort this poem out today, been wanting to do it for weeks.

If you managed to get this far, (I know it is a lot to read), thank you.

Mark

Hey Mark. I managed to get this far.   I think if there is a cultural difference in connotation or gravity, it should be considered when writing, but also when reading. Cultural centricity is not a poem breaker. Personally, I "got" the poem as is. You could address some of your concerns by modifying "children" for clarity, but I don't think you need to. I do wonder if the quotes on "spacca" empower the word more than you intend.
I'm not sure if any of that helps, but I'm following. 
Paul

Brain just got a little more clear after reading Weeded's post.

Consider:

children
laughing -
at the their own
"spacca"

Hi Mark,
Think this is a worthy subject to pursue further 9esp after reading your notes) and good that you have given it a bump and set up a discussion starter.

I am wondering if perhaps it could be set out as a paired poem with a flip side stanza to read the other way.
(the perspective of the tormentors and the protectors)
we had a couple of kids in our school and it was about 50 /50 over the side who looked out for them and included them and those who were mean.

(01-01-2016, 09:28 PM)ambrosial revelation Wrote:  children
laughing -
at the "spacca"

a suggestion would be

children
laughing -
a "spacca"

missed this and many more poems. i read it as a derogatory word for spastic or other special needs person. i think it actually captures an all too common scene.

(02-24-2016, 08:43 AM)aschueler Wrote:  Tough one.  From the US, I never would have caught that.  If I had, yes, it would have come across fairly callous if you had used retard or spaz.  I googled it and first thing that popped up was a restaurant in California.

So, you didn't mean that.   And to shift its meaning ... in few words....  I am not sure.  But maybe I could throw some tools you can try / alter as you see fit.

And I think the quotes don't help, it confused me more.


Joy --

crooked smile ---

In spite of spacca (awkward)


Spacca kids
Smile, joy. (Etc, you get the idea)

Not sure if  this helps, hopefully not an inappropriate response.

Hi aschueler, don't worry, there's no such thing as an inappropriate response, especially regarding this poem and I have learnt a great deal from all the responses I got. Firstly the culture thing will probably always be too hard to convey completely as it is bound to be different when growing up with certain words. A couple of years ago I would have just assumed, wrongly, that the word meant the same to everyone and that may have caused even more problems. The other thing that you mentioned which was very helpful was the use of quotation marks, which instead of being the device that I thought would clarify the situation did the exact opposite and brought more attention to the word. I guess there's a cliche about forest and trees that applies here.

I've made an edit with the help from everyone's comments, thanks for the input.

Mark

(02-24-2016, 09:44 AM)Weeded Wrote:  Mark,
This is my first time reading this, but being that it's not much to digest (five words) I'll try and have a go at what you're asking.

The first thing I'd change is the title; it feels kind of wasted (especially if this piece is meaningful to you) to entitle it simply with the date it was shared (kinda reminds me of a poem titled "poem one" or somethin like that). Perhaps you have your reasons but I'm not seeing any, personally.

And being an American thats spent three years in England, I'd imagine I possibly have a bit more to offer you in terms of this particular discussion, but to be honest I've never heard the term 'spacca.' That said, it seems the most offensive word I learned in my travels (and this goes for both countries) is 'cunt.' Something about calling someone a 'cunt' just makes me cringe if used improperly, and furious is used properly(toward me). Maybe your perception of 'spacca' being so offensive is more of a personal thing? I know this is also subcultural, but in the hip-hop community 'spaz' specifically is actually quite the compliment (i.e. "Did you hear that dude? He hella spazzed on that track"), but again to call someone with cerebral palsy a spaz(spacca) is just fucked up. Hmm, maybe make it more apparent that the children are mocking someone with a mental condition? If your friend understood right away though that may not be the issue.

Children are by far the cruelest in terms of verbal animosity-- that said I wouldn't be afraid to get even nastier, children have no filter, so why should you in this one? Hehe just my opinion though. And honestly, I think the British (not sure bout Scots) have far more nicer children than the States. So if you were worried about international appeal, well to me thats all the more reason to get even nastier.

Also, Americans tend to be a bit uh, how do I put this lightly... Stupider? Especially at the age of a young child. I believe our educational system is to blame, America seems set on a curriculum that focuses on glorifying the country and seems more of a brainwashing system than an educational system (ope, here comes my conspiracy theories...). England (again not sure bout Scotland but I'd imagine theyre pretty similar) is all about cramming as much knowledge into a childs brain and making them realize they're not children at an early age, I mean you got 16 year olds learning what 18-21 year olds over here are learning. That said, in a poem of five words, where the main focus/meaning/power is dependent on the word 'spacca' might be where the effect becomes lost.

What makes a word offensive/empowering? In reflection of what I just wrote, I'd have to go with context. I had no idea someone with a mental condition was being described in this one, yet I also had no idea what spacca meant either. But even in this context, 'laughing' sounds a bit playful (as children are, which helps to the innocence you're going for). You also have 'children laughing at the "spacca"' which kinda reads like the speaker him/herself is calling the person a 'spacca.' The quotes kinda leave me a bit more confused too, personally. 

A "fun" game the children used to play when I lived in Louisiana was to pick on one child to the point he/she literally breaks down to tears or goes crazy and starts fighting. This sometimes would take up the whole recess, sometimes it would take days, so not one insult, but many were thrown at the victim (children with mental conditions were not excluded). Maybe 'spacca' isnt enough?

Anyway, I hope this helps, and I hope you're not offended with my comparing England to Scotland. They seemed culturally pretty similar but I've only been to Edinburgh so I wouldn't truly know. Thanks for bumping this was cool to run into,
mike

Hi Mike, thanks for your comments and input on this. First of all you're right, the title does seem odd and I never thought about it at the time. It's a hangover habit from when I used to write haiku here and instead of having 30 odd poems with the title haiku I started just putting the date instead, so in theory untitled, but yeah I see how it's confusing.
You are totally spot on with the use of the word 'cunt' and how offensive it is when you say, 'if used improperly'. Where I'm from your best mate can call you 'a daft cunt' and it's fine but if a stranger did the same it would be a different matter regardless of whether it was in an aggressive way or not. It's about context, although saying that there are some places you just wouldn't say it at all. But with 'spacca' it's not the same it's taboo and always inappropriate and for that reason it can be used by people who are disabled and then it's empowering much in the same way that the n word is for black people. Although for me that seems to have lost its power by being overused and also now I see it used by white people calling other people it, regardless of race either as an insult or as an expression of friendship. Whether this just happens on the net I'm not sure. This is one of the definitions from urban dictionary - "1.describes an ignorant, uneducated, foolish individual regardless of race, color, religion, sexual orientation, etc. 2. endearing term between two or more individual to describe a friendship or bond." If that is true it has lost its power, which is a shame because it is such a powerful tool to reclaim or claim the word that was used to insult you with and then use the word yourself. In this country 'spacca' still has that huge power, I've seen it on talk show where a female comedian with cerebral palsy used it in an empowering way and it scares the crap out of the people who are there. I seemed to have got somewhat sidetracked, but the word 'cunt' no matter how it was used could never have the same empowering effect that the other two words do. In fact now I realise that's how I should have described 'spacca', as a comparison with the n word, (I still can't type it out as a word, I cringe too much) it would be the same as a white person calling a black person that word.
I better move on to the next comment or I'll be here all night. Much appreciate all of your thoughts on this, all has helped a great deal. Oh by the way I don't mind at all that you compare England with Scotland, I'm actually English but living in Scotland, well sort of English, I'm a Geordie, but there's another cultural thing that could take a while to explain. Another time perhaps.

Thanks again,

Mark

(02-24-2016, 09:45 AM)Tiger the Lion Wrote:  Hey Mark. I managed to get this far.   I think if there is a cultural difference in connotation or gravity, it should be considered when writing, but also when reading. Cultural centricity is not a poem breaker. Personally, I "got" the poem as is. You could address some of your concerns by modifying "children" for clarity, but I don't think you need to. I do wonder if the quotes on "spacca" empower the word more than you intend.
I'm not sure if any of that helps, but I'm following. 
Paul

Hi Paul, thanks for your thoughts on this and to answer your question, yes it certainly does help. Clear and precise as always especially what you said about empowering the word. I've just mentioned in my last comment about how the word can now be used as an empowering word but as you noted the use of quotes help to empower it in the opposite direction, like a more effective insult. Which is totally not what I wanted. I've made an edit taking into consideration everyones comments, thanks for your input.

Mark

(02-25-2016, 06:27 PM)cidermaid Wrote:  Hi Mark,
Think this is a worthy subject to pursue further 9esp after reading your notes) and good that you have given it a bump and set up a discussion starter.

I am wondering if perhaps it could be set out as a paired poem with a flip side stanza to read the other way.
(the perspective of the tormentors and the protectors)
we had a couple of kids in our school and it was about 50 /50 over the side who looked out for them and included them and those who were mean.

Hi AJ, thanks for reading and your comments also. You're right about it being a worthy subject to pursue, at first I felt awkward about bumping this but I have learnt so much from the comments and even as I am writing replies I have noticed things that I wouldn't have done otherwise.
I like your suggestion of a 'flip side stanza' giving a different perspective, it is definitely a way of covering all angles and covering myself at the same time. I will definitely consider it and give it more thought. For the moment I have made an edit that I think is a slight improvement.
Thanks for the suggestion and your input,

Mark

(02-25-2016, 10:28 PM)billy Wrote:  a suggestion would be

children
laughing -
a "spacca"

missed this and many more poems. i read it as a derogatory word for spastic or other special needs person. i think it actually captures an all too common scene.

Hi Billy, thanks for the comments, I have made an edit based on all comments with the main alteration being the removal of the quotation marks that seemed to highlight the word too much. Your suggestion has really got me thinking also because it does seem to solve a few issues and I like the way that it is simpler yet clearer. I'm thinking that if I removed the quotation marks from your suggestion it would still work because it doesn't give the impression that the author is using the word 'spacca' to describe the person. I will think on it and probably wait for a couple of days first before I look at it again and hopefully it will be immediately clear.
Thanks for the input and making me think in a different direction,

Mark

I suppose the poem is an illustration of how children can be unthinking and cruel - or even thinking and cruel! However you read it, it has disturbing undertones - if that is the idea behind the writing then it works.