I have been reading more and more critiques (or comments if you prefer) addressing the capitalization of first words in lines of poetry.  The occurrence of this type of critique has been growing both in popularity as well as in vehemence on this very board.  It is not only this board that suffers this:

http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread...f-a-Line&s=

http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread...-of-a-Poem

I have read quite a bit of poetry both of the modern variety and of the more dated variety and I have seen no consensus on the issue.  Poem published today, both in print and on line feature both standards - sometimes within the same publication.

Do people find this type of critique valuable?
Do people believe there is a consensus "right" way or "wrong" way?

Just some thoughts for discussion on an issue that has been nagging me for quite some time.

Personally I find it pedantic. It does improve the read quality for me if the capitals are there for a reason and not simply as a Word autocorrect function, but I believe that this falls into the realm of proofreading rather than critique -- and people should be proofreading their own poetry, not expecting others to do it. Commenting on conventions like this also has the effect of making a trend seem like a rule, and in my opinion that is anathema to poetry. There are many grammatical choices in poetry that I dislike, e.g. the small i and the ridiculous overuse of ellipses, but the fact is that they are choices and not mine to make.

Interestingly, I occasionally post pieces that I have copied directly from Word and not bothered to correct initial caps -- yet nobody has pulled me up on it. I would hesitate to suggest a double standard, but if it annoys you enough to tell one person then you should be saying the same for everyone. That's me with my poet hat on, not my Admin hat, so it's not a directive but a personal observation.

I saw a forum recently where the rules of Serious, or maybe it was their whole critique section, forbade questioning capping each line. They said it was poet's choice and sounded sick of the issue.

I personally only ask about it when I'm struggling with the poem and feel that capping each line has only added to my confusion. In that case I'm curious as to what the poet feels it adds. I don't recall anyone answering me yet, either my question is ignored or convention or autocap is blamed.

When reading critiques I find I don't mind when it's brought up as a point for the poet to consider as it seems many have not. I think it crosses the line into preaching when the critique gives the impression that the poet is a fool for capping, even though often those little jingling hats give it away.

Same for the center justified poem, it usually impedes my read but if the poet feels it somehow adds to the piece so be it. Still, I like to hear the reason as there may be a point I  might be missing.

edit: ha, just read the links, I think that's the site I saw.

When I write lines that have the same number of feet in common,
I capitalize the first letter of every line. It doesn't make a whole
lot of sense, but anyone who expects poetry to make sense is lacking
same. (If it's good enough for Lord Byron, it's good enough for me.)

As far as anyone else's poetry is concerned: I pride myself on having
enough respect for any writer, be their product wretched or sublime,  
to honor their choice.

(05-22-2015, 02:26 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  When I write lines that have the same number of feet in common,
I capitalize the first letter of ever line. It doesn't make a whole
lot of sense, but anyone who expects poetry to make sense is lacking
same. (If it's good enough for Lord Byron, it's good enough for me.)

As far as anyone else's poetry is concerned: I pride myself on having
enough respect for any writer, be their product wretched or sublime,  
to honor their choice.

My thoughts.
Individual poets write individual poetry, individual crits give individual critique...what else can we expect? Capitalising every line start makes no sense whatsoever to me as I cannot see "purpose" only affectation. I cannot expect a reason from the writer as to the "why?" without feeling I am just looking for a fight so I see it, I advise against it and am slowly begining to leave it at that. I have NEVER had anyone tell me why they do it, except the feeble excuse that the computer did it, and am becoming bored with hearing myself repeat the same old dogma. Perhaps anything goes and i should be like whatever, Byron, innit.
As far as expecting poetry to make "sense" goes, I hold firm. If communicative language is not the soul of poetry then what is left?
tectak (and what is good enough for Chaucer is NOT good enough for me. Byron? Jury still out)

To me it makes.
About as much.
Sense as a period.
At the end of every.
Line.

That is not to say it cannot be used to effect, but that rarely appears to be the case.

Hmm...
My reason for capitalization is that it's an homage to the past, a tradition
that seems appropriate to me. It's my own idiosyncrasy, not something I
expect of others.

Using a lowercase "i" (98% of mine are), lower case in general, and no
punctuation marks (which are a small part of punctuation as a whole),
fall into that category as well. I find the look of these poems: Beautiful.

It's not so much that esthetics are beyond sense, it's that sense is contained within them.

Lower case i as a deliberate and explicable choice: fine. I have used it myself, but only ever in poems where I have also used no punctuation or other caps, because... well, because it looks right to me.

(05-22-2015, 02:47 PM)tectak Wrote:  My thoughts.
Individual poets write individual poetry, individual crits give individual critique...what else can we expect? Capitalising every line start makes no sense whatsoever to me as I cannot see "purpose" only affectation. I cannot expect a reason from the writer as to the "why?" without feeling I am just looking for a fight so I see it, I advise against it and am slowly  begining to leave it at that. I have NEVER had anyone tell me why they do it, except the feeble excuse that the computer did it, and am becoming bored with hearing myself repeat the same old dogma. Perhaps anything goes and i should be like whatever, Byron, innit.

I gave my 'reasons' above. The reason why they may have a hard time articulating a reason
is that you're asking them to explain why they like something.

My neighbor has a blue car.
I say, "I'm guessing you like blue cars."
He says, "Why yes, I do."
Then I ask him, "So, why do you like blue cars?"

(05-22-2015, 02:47 PM)tectak Wrote:  As far as expecting  poetry to make "sense" goes, I hold firm. If communicative language is not the soul of poetry then what is left?
tectak (and what is good enough for Chaucer is NOT good enough for me. Byron? Jury still out)

The problem here is agreeing on what "sense" means.
When I say that poetry doesn't have to make sense, all I'm saying is it doesn't need to
contain a logical narrative. There are so many other things that can be communicated.

Rhythm, alliteration, rhyme, metrical feet, lines with the same number of feet,
rhyme schemes, repeated  lines, repetition of all sorts, etc., etc.
The types of symbolism, allegory, personification, all manner of other forms of
metaphor where the connection/comparison is not of the logical sort (angry skies).

None of that makes sense, but it does communicate.

(05-22-2015, 06:06 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  

(05-22-2015, 02:47 PM)tectak Wrote:  My thoughts.
Individual poets write individual poetry, individual crits give individual critique...what else can we expect? Capitalising every line start makes no sense whatsoever to me as I cannot see "purpose" only affectation. I cannot expect a reason from the writer as to the "why?" without feeling I am just looking for a fight so I see it, I advise against it and am slowly  begining to leave it at that. I have NEVER had anyone tell me why they do it, except the feeble excuse that the computer did it, and am becoming bored with hearing myself repeat the same old dogma. Perhaps anything goes and i should be like whatever, Byron, innit.

I gave my 'reasons' above. The reason why they may have a hard time articulating a reason
is that you're asking them to explain why they like something.

My neighbor has a blue car.
I say, "I'm guessing you like blue cars."
He says, "Why yes, I do."
Then I ask him, "So, why do you like blue cars?"

(05-22-2015, 02:47 PM)tectak Wrote:  As far as expecting  poetry to make "sense" goes, I hold firm. If communicative language is not the soul of poetry then what is left?
tectak (and what is good enough for Chaucer is NOT good enough for me. Byron? Jury still out)

The problem here is agreeing on what "sense" means.
When I say that poetry doesn't have to make sense, all I'm saying is it doesn't need to
contain a logical narrative. There are so many other things that can be communicated.

Rhythm, alliteration, rhyme, metrical feet, lines with the same number of feet,
rhyme schemes, repeated  lines, repetition of all sorts, etc., etc.
The types of symbolism, allegory, personification, all manner of other forms of
metaphor where the connection/comparison is not of the logical sort (angry skies).

None of that makes sense, but it does communicate.

Hi ray,

My neighbor has a blue car.
I say, "I'm guessing you like blue cars."
He says, "Why yes, I do."
I ask "Why do you like blue?"

He says,"Because when it is a nice day the sky is blue."
I say" Hey, that makes sense. I can understand that."  
OR  
He says, " I have no idea. I just do".
I say, "Oh."

Now you started it but I do not need to argue that whilst both scenarios offer a valid stance for the human condition, I get "information" about the thought process, as transmitted, in the "blue sky" case. Unsurprisingly I get no information about the thought process in the "no idea" case.

Of course, you could argue that you learn something about something in both cases BUT metaphorically leaning,  you learn about the POEM in the case of the "blue sky", whereas you learn about the POET in the "no idea" case.

I care not about poets, their foibles, their religion or lack thereof, their drug habits, their angsts, their paranoias or their hang-ups. I only care about how they express their ideas in the poem. So give me "blue sky" any day against "no idea."  
Put it another way.

My neighbour capitalises every line in his poetry.
I say "I'm guessing you like to capitalise every line?"
He says "Yes. I do"
I ask "Why do you like to capitalise every line?"
He says " Because I am locked in the past and want to be like Byron".
I say,"Well. good luck with that".

Actually, just saying "I have no idea why I capitalise every line" is probably more telling.

Best,
tectak

I don't care whether the line is capitalized or not. I rarely if ever mention it. If I do, it is simply to tell the new poet that they have the option not to do it. If the poem is good I find it doesn't matter. If the poem is bad I find changing it doesn't help.

Well, there is the idea that punctuating can help guide meaning, and I guess you can use tactile senses in a poem for the "show not tell" ideology. 

If doggy is named Doggy than Doggy is more individual than doggy. I'm sure there are other small things that capitalizing can signify or whatever, but whatever the capitalization conveys seems to be important. Of course, you can make fun of the English language and all of the rules in a poem as well. 

(05-22-2015, 12:17 PM)Leanne Wrote:  Interestingly, I occasionally post pieces that I have copied directly from Word and not bothered to correct initial caps -- yet nobody has pulled me up on it.  I would hesitate to suggest a double standard, but if it annoys you enough to tell one person then you should be saying the same for everyone.  That's me with my poet hat on, not my Admin hat, so it's not a directive but a personal observation.

I have posted several piece here with capped first lines.  I prefer them for formal poetry where the identity of the line itself as a unit of poetry is important as well as in acrostics.  Not once has someone mentioned it to me.

---

(05-22-2015, 02:53 PM)Tiger the Lion Wrote:  To me it makes.
About as much.
Sense as a period.
At the end of every.
Line.

That is not to say it cannot be used to effect, but that rarely appears to be the case.

I think you do bring about one of the major uses for it which is to maintain the identity of the line as a unit in poetry. If you have read Dennis Hammes book, he makes much of the purpose and use of the line in poetry. He also wrote mostly formal poetry and capped first words in most of them.

http://www.the-rathouse.com/files/prosody.pdf

sometimes an all capped poem can be off putting if a cap follows a comma etc. but all in all it's up to the poet.
sometimes if i see a comment expressing it as breaking the rule, i do sometimes say it's a choice. [which is my opinion]
i see no problem in mentioning the use of caps or the lack of use of punctuation if it doesn't work well.
this is one of those topics that are forever regurgitated and ho doubt it will be spat out again in a year or so.
i think more importantly we express as a site that feedback while helpful at times is not writ in stone.
i'm sure if i told you [leanne] not to cap lines you'd tell me to fuck off though i would say if the use of them were a problem in my reading.
the thing i see is that many newbs think it mandatory to cap. for them it is a definitive rule they must follow less they burn in hell

I would, yes

But for newbies who don't know any better because it's what they've seen in poetry at school etc., I don't think it's entirely fair to censure them harshly for following an outmoded trend. It's also not awfully productive to call people morons just because they are not fantastic at grammar/spelling -- it *is* fair enough to suggest that they don't post in Serious and flag the post to a moderator for moving. Serious is really designed for people who are ready to workshop their poem, not people who just want a proofreader (in fact none of the forums are just for proofreading -- people who *only* comment on spelling and grammatical errors are copping out, as far as I'm concerned. Those things are easy to spot on a quick scan and don't offer evidence that you've actually read and thought about the poem.)

I'm told that when you post from a phone, you automatically get a cap at the start of each line.

(05-23-2015, 11:56 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  I'm told that when you post from a phone, you automatically get a cap at the start of each line.

Probably depends which phone.  I post most things from my phone and that hasn't happened to me yet.  Numerous other errors, yes, but not caps.

About 2/3's of the people in the world have written languages
that don't use case. Their problems with passwords are quite
minor compared to their inability to enjoy the recreational
diversion of discussions such a this one.   [tears]

gentle comments on this subject work best for me. though sometimes if i can read it just as well with caps i won't mention it, same with punctuation