Recent crit raised some old blue-barnacled platelets...huh? Obscurity, don't yah just love it?
OK. I am going to make a confession. I am a lazy reader. I like to be allowed into the mind of the poet without the need for the breaking of a ten digit rotary padlock. I am more than happy, though, to enter in IF I know the ten digit number.
Obscure poetry is often rewarding to read provided that the INTENT of the writer is made clear. Round this maypole of intent the ribbons can be twisted, tangled and woven into intricate patterns and colourful tapestries. Where it all goes wrong is  when obscurity becomes the objective. Why on earth would anyone write something unfathomable? Well, it is because of the "false universality" of the obscure. Even an average reader can take solace from an "imagined" translation of what an obscure poem is all about, whilst the consummate consumer of all things literary will delight him/herself with the proud claim that the piece was clearly about this or that.
There is a spectrum of acceptance amongst readers which averages out. Any claim that the "false universality" of obscure poetry is a myth, is eroded by the bell-curve of  acceptance amongst the "universal" readers reading "universal" poetry. In other words, we readers are many in number and wide in our tastes...and ditto writers. It is then, far more all encompassing to write in a non-specific way than to write only about facts...but is universal appeal what we crave? I do not believe so.
To sum up. Obscurity in poetry is an excuse for inability. It is a GOOD excuse, but an excuse nonetheless. Worse than accidental obscurity is DELIBERATE obscurity...go write puzzles for Reader's Digest (RIP) and don't bother me.

Oh, why FALSE universality? A bit obscure, that. Again, there is thought behind the premise. As far as I can tell, it seems to me that the Emperor has new clothes every day. With anything approaching gobbledygook it takes but ONE critique to laud the piece and an  avalanche of eulogists fall from on high, each trying to out-translate the other. This gives the writer a warm glow and encourages more of the same...I know, I have been on both sides; but  I never believed the believers. That would be to assume that gobbkedygook is universally acceptable...a false universality.
You wanna fight about it?

Best,
tectak

This day has drained me. My response to any challenge that requires thought
(much less movement) is to capitulate, to accept the inevitability of abject
failure, to plead to be granted a quick death.

May the morrow grant me the energy to honour the efforts of your intellect
with a response worthy of your respect.

Ineffably yours,
ray

I think there's room for preference in art. I prefer my poems with a strong image, a surface story and an underlying current that keeps me thinking, with a total of some emotional kick, something that gives me some insight into human perception. Or a minimum of words that feel lovely in my mouth.

When I get nothing off the page after a few reads I move on. If poetry had the advantage that the visual arts have, where a chorus of applause from the people that get it can put it in my face over and over, maybe I'd get there someday. I was close to forty before Peggy Guggenheim's long narrow gallery of Pollocks turned a lightbulb on and over forty before a Mondrian finally hooked me. They moved out of obscurity into clarity for me.

For me, most poetry just doesn't have that time. Is that the fault of the writer or reader?  It only matters if you'd like your poetry to become part of the reader, something that they can't let go of. I think you only have a small window of time to do that and it's best to get a hook in while you can. IMHO


Mondrian


Pollock


Peggy with Calder, just because I stumbled on this great pic

(04-28-2015, 06:25 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  This day has drained me. My response to any challenge that requires thought
(much less movement) is to capitulate, to accept the inevitability of abject
failure, to plead to be granted a quick death.

May the morrow grant me the energy to honour the efforts of your intellect
with a response worthy of your respect.

Ineffably yours,
ray

Hi ray,
This day has drained me. My response to any challenge that requires thought
(much less movement) is to capitulate, to accept the inevitability of abject
failure, to plead to be granted a quick death.

May the morrow grant me the grace to fall beneath your response
with an honorable retreat worthy of your respect.

Ineffably yours,
tectak

---

(04-28-2015, 08:54 PM)ellajam Wrote:  I think there's room for preference in art. I prefer my poems with a strong image, a surface story and an underlying current that keeps me thinking, with a total of some emotional kick, something that gives me some insight into human perception. Or a minimum of words that feel lovely in my mouth.

When I get nothing off the page after a few reads I move on. If poetry had the advantage that the visual arts have, where a chorus of applause from the people that get it can put it in my face over and over, maybe I'd get there someday. I was close to forty before Peggy Guggenheim's long narrow gallery of Pollocks turned a lightbulb on and over forty before a Mondrian finally hooked me. They moved out of obscurity into clarity for me.

For me, most poetry just doesn't have that time. Is that the fault of the writer or reader?  It only matters if you'd like your poetry to become part of the reader, something that they can't let go of. I think you only have a small window of time to do that and it's best to get a hook in while you can. IMHO


Mondrian


Pollock


Peggy with Calder, just because I stumbled on this great pic

Hi ella,
I think you have said it all. Poetry, like art, once posted is owned by the viewers. That really is why I question both aspiring "obscure" poetry and "abstract" art. It is not be because I devalue such genres, it is because I find it increasingly (as I get older) difficult to find "purpose" in perversity. Frankly I am quite assured, by others of an age, that there is trickery afoot in the persuasion of "authoritative" experts which gives value to the valueless and credence to the cretins...but what's wrong with that, you may reasonably ask? It is Catch 22 for me. If I like what I write and no one understands it, they must  be idiots...if they write gobbledygook and I don't "get" it, they must be inept. Guess which camp I choose to be in...just like everyone else. The only thing in my favour is that under pressure I give in and say I like things just to be liked. So far.
Best,
tectak

Still dead, flaccid nerve cells, regressed to amoeba or being eaten by them.
I'm starting to agree with you, or is that the amoebae talking?

Mondrian's look great when reproduced on shower curtains (I have one, beautiful).
They are wonderful examples of Arts Décoratifs, much like Tiffany Lamp Shades
and Rosewood pottery.

Pollock's don't work that well on shower curtains, but make for excellent kitchen
floor tiles as they're good at hiding spills and stains.

(05-01-2015, 05:31 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  Still dead, flaccid nerve cells, regressed to amoeba or being eaten by them.
I'm starting to agree with you, or is that the amoebae talking?

Mondrian's look great when reproduced on shower curtains (I have one, beautiful).
They are wonderful examples of Arts Décoratifs, much like Tiffany Lamp Shades
and Rosewood pottery.

Pollock's don't work that well on shower curtains, but make for excellent kitchen
floor tiles as they're good at hiding spills and stains.

Actually, Pollocks might make great shower curtains, as might some of your poems. Maybe we should go into business.

(05-01-2015, 07:11 PM)ellajam Wrote:  

(05-01-2015, 05:31 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  Still dead, flaccid nerve cells, regressed to amoeba or being eaten by them.
I'm starting to agree with you, or is that the amoebae talking?

Mondrian's look great when reproduced on shower curtains (I have one, beautiful).
They are wonderful examples of Arts Décoratifs, much like Tiffany Lamp Shades
and Rosewood pottery.

Pollock's don't work that well on shower curtains, but make for excellent kitchen
floor tiles as they're good at hiding spills and stains.

Actually, Pollocks might make great shower curtains, as might some of your poems. Maybe we should go into business.

The way some people sling hair conditioner around (my wife),
our current curtains, as the sticky conditioner slowly gets
coated with dust, actually look like Pollock's already.

My poems, honestly, are a bit too tiny to make shower curtains;
and they're too thin to make an adequate tea cozy.
But cat pajamas, yes, there's their forte.

(05-01-2015, 10:52 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  

(05-01-2015, 07:11 PM)ellajam Wrote:  

(05-01-2015, 05:31 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  Still dead, flaccid nerve cells, regressed to amoeba or being eaten by them.
I'm starting to agree with you, or is that the amoebae talking?

Mondrian's look great when reproduced on shower curtains (I have one, beautiful).
They are wonderful examples of Arts Décoratifs, much like Tiffany Lamp Shades
and Rosewood pottery.

Pollock's don't work that well on shower curtains, but make for excellent kitchen
floor tiles as they're good at hiding spills and stains.

Actually, Pollocks might make great shower curtains, as might some of your poems. Maybe we should go into business.

The way some people sling hair conditioner around  (my wife),
our current curtains, as the sticky conditioner slowly gets
coated with dust, actually look like Pollock's already.

My poems, honestly, are a bit too tiny to make shower curtains;
and they're too thin to make an adequate tea cozy.  
But cat pajamas, yes, there's their forte.

I personally like my shower curtain poems small enough to be read at a glance and let plenty of light through, but yes, cat pajamas, that's the ticket. And the words could be rearranged after they're shredded.

(05-01-2015, 11:32 PM)ellajam Wrote:  I personally like my shower curtain poems small enough to be read at a glance and let plenty of light through, but yes, cat pajamas, that's the ticket. And the words could be rearranged after they're shredded.

à la William Burroughs' cut-up technique

(05-02-2015, 04:21 AM)rayheinrich Wrote:  

(05-01-2015, 11:32 PM)ellajam Wrote:  I personally like my shower curtain poems small enough to be read at a glance and let plenty of light through, but yes, cat pajamas, that's the ticket. And the words could be rearranged after they're shredded.

à la William Burroughs' cut-up technique

...actually, some shower curtains make pretty good Pollocks...harrrumph.
tectak

(05-02-2015, 03:46 PM)tectak Wrote:  

(05-02-2015, 04:21 AM)rayheinrich Wrote:  

(05-01-2015, 11:32 PM)ellajam Wrote:  I personally like my shower curtain poems small enough to be read at a glance and let plenty of light through, but yes, cat pajamas, that's the ticket. And the words could be rearranged after they're shredded.

à la William Burroughs' cut-up technique

...actually, some shower curtains make pretty good Pollocks...harrrumph.
tectak

The shower curtains are just an abstraction of one of the most important of Pollock's
many paradoxically intrinsic metaphors. While I'm not sure what the fuck it was, I do know that
most forensic experts involved in the determination of authenticity of art works refuse to come
anywhere near a Pollock painting because it's impossible to tell the 'real' ones from the 'fakes'.

P.S. There was this guy I knew in Washington D.C. who claimed he was a fake artist and
set up a street display of fake art called "Amalgam's Conceptual Concrete". There were no
end of people who got into fierce arguments with him claiming he was a real artist who
was intentionally misrepresenting himself to gain notoriety.